Anyone going to PIR that would be interested in supplying some feedback on the DefNder HNR? Frog??
DefNder / PRI
Anyone going to PIR that would be interested in supplying some feedback on the DefNder HNR? Frog??
John H.
Reynard 88SF
Here's my take.
Saw it and played with it today. Tomorrow morning I'm going back with my own helmet to install their anchors in the place of the HANS posts and going to really play a lot with it. Getting in and out of seat.
First impressions.
1. Much more comfortable than a HANS
2. It does not release as easily as the HANS. With the belt guides being more "positive" there is more resistance.
3. The parts of it are modular. If you accidentally break part of it by doing something stupid you aren't out an entire device.
4. The 'tethers' slide like a HANS. Not as smooth because of the secondary tethers that are for the lateral protection.
5. It comes higher off the chest than a HANS. In a reclined position with a helmet that has a large amount of material below the visor like the wizzy open wheel helmets there may be some contact.
6. One size fits most design is really nice. The adjustable recline has 3 positions which I'm gonna guess is equivalent to 10,20 and 30.
7. It's a bright green but those can be painted (the green is paint)
Rumors were swirling about the HANS suit. HANS called a few of the dealers that I know giving them a heads up that suit was going to be filed. I'm not a lawyer but outside of the very general resemblance it is far from the same creature. I'd say that the R3 is more similar to the HANS than the DefNder is.
If I come out of playing with it tomorrow thinking that it is something I would wear I'll have them ready to ship in about a week.
__________________
Great to have more choices. Thanks for the report!!
Patents expire no more than 20 years after first issue. The original HANS patent was filed in Jan 87. A "new and improved" HANS was patented on Jan 27, 1999. This patent is the patent that HANS is alleging that DefNder device infringes upon. I'm no lawyer, and I don't know how different devices have to be, but there is some subjective language in the patent (I am sure purposely subjective so that it could be argued later).
Suit has been filed.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...C2FB999C51B%7D
I hope HANS spends lots of money to lose this one.
Unfortunately, that would mean DefNder would be forced to spend lots of money, too. Result: Higher prices for products from both companies, and more racers unable to afford a safety device.Originally Posted by Quickshoe
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
DefNder
Does this mean that those of us wanting the DefNder should buy one right away before the law suit limits/stops production? Kind of counter productive for HANS isn't it?
Personally, I don't think pattent infringement law suits from safety equipment manufcturers are productive to their long term businesss and certainly not their corporate image.
I have a HANS thinking about also getting a DefNder because of the clear issues and deficiencies that Hans has with taller drivers in Formula cars.
Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
240Z Vintage Production Car
PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts
http://www.circletrack.com/safety/ct.../photo_01.html
Here is a pic I found of one. Looks pretty neat, like a roller coaster restraint at Six Flags. Are these for sale, and how much do they cost (I saw $600 on a site)?
Joe, You said it was adjustable? So you could switch from sedan to formula cars with the same device?
Website:
http://www.defnder.com/index.htm
I want one!
Last edited by reidhazelton; 12.12.08 at 12:08 PM.
How could your helmet possibly clear the legs of this device. Especially in a reclined position.
the green parts look like injection molded plastic from the web site.
Looks kind of bulky to me.
True....unless in the event that the courts do not rule in H-D's favor and there is some award that would cover all of Innovative Safety Solutions' legal expenses and then some....countersuit!
Nothing wrong with protecting your intellectual property....however, when you help create industry standards (FIA) that dictate a patented physical design or (SFI) that dictate certain physical attributes then you need to expect that other devices brought to market will be similar in design.
Monopoly? Are they avoiding a monopoly by licensing their device to several manufacturers?
Shrewd...no I don't consider that a positive attribute.
The HANS version we know now is quite different than the frightening-looking original design. So at least that part of the patent issue should be clear. I will say as clunky as the original HANS looked, it probably worked in side impacts quite well. The darn thing had huge channels for the belts that covered most of the sternum!
IMO the DefNder has real potential, but I'm also skeptical about helmet clearance issues. Every photo or schematic supplied by the manufacturer shows a model or dummy with an Ichabod Crane-sized neck, and helmet is so high on his head the guy could barely see the road. Joe, any way you can supply some photos of you at PRI giving the thing a workout?
Dale V.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
So I'll be carrying and using this item.
I spent about an hour this morning doing everything I could to find a fault with it.
Here are my secondary thoughts.
1. While it looks bulky it doesn't sit much higher on the chest than the HANS. There will be some people who have clearance issues. As you tighten the belts down it pulls the device closer to the chest as well. It seems to be about 1/2" at most higher than the HANS. I have a T-6 Bell that I brought and installed their posts on to test it. It has a HUGE lower chin area and in a relatively uprights seat there was zero clearance issue. In a very reclined car I could see there being some issues.
2. I tried everything I could to get the belts and hardware to hang up on egress. It never did. It did have some 'bumps' from when the belt adjusters would slide past the belt guides. Never did it pull my neck hard. It is a bit tougher of an egress compared to HANS due to the harness guides.
3. It takes more time to get belted up because you have to make sure the belts are in the guides. That makees me think that the endurance racing market may not like it becuase it will add time to pitstops.
To answer questions.
1. The adjusters that allow you to rotate from car to formula/sports racer are on the neck/collar area. 2 Allen screws that hold/release the part. Very simple to change.
2. I'll get some pictures when I have it in my hands in Durham of it in the 89 Van Diemen and maybe in other cars I can find.
3. According to DefNder they have not been served any papers saying htat they are being sued (as of this morning) The lawyers back in CA and the people here have herad and seen the same internet rumors but haven't had any official paperwork thrown at them. Trying to catch the DefNder guys off guard to guage how worried they were about the lawsuit was soemthing I tried. They didn't seem worried at all and it sounded like the expected it.
Other things that debuted at PRI to come later. Some real cool new AIM stuff. The RFR F1000 car is beautiful. I want 3.
How much for the 2 different versions? I will be purchasing soon.
I have a Bell Vortex helmet and will be using the setup in an FC car and FE car.
Would you anticipate any clearance issues?
Thanks
As for clearance issues I don't think there will be as much as I originally thought.
I do not use pads on my HANS device as it fits much better without them for me. I can't say for sure until I put them on back to back but I think that the arms that come down on the chest will be about as high as a HANS with pads.
The price for the Team issue which is the only one that will be available in the short term is 549
Thanks,
When do you anticipate having them in?
N-device
Those are the best pictures I've seen of the device to show how it looks.
While the device looks bulky in those picture (and it is more so than HANS) when it is put under your belts and they are cinched down they are pressed much closer to the body and the clearance issues should be limited to those with heavily reclined seats. I'll be sure to take picutres when I get them in the Van Diemen.
They should be shipping in about a week from the mfr.
a related survey......
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?s...Y47yT2sg_3d_3d
Jim,
What do you plan on doing with the survey results? Is there somewhere the results can be viewed after taking the survey?
THANK YOU for all your efforts in putting all the information that you can find in one location. Your work is really appreciated!
LEATT CORPORATION GETS COURT ORDER
New here, picked up this thread while researching neck braces. Thought your guys would have something to say about this from the Leatt web site:
LEATT CORPORATION GETS COURT ORDER
Cape Town, South Africa, 11 December 2008: Leatt Corporation, a Nevada corporation (OTC Symbol: LEAT)(“Company” or Leatt Corporation”), announced today that a South African High Court granted Leatt Corporation¹s request for a restraining order against Karl Ebel and Grant Nelson, former employees of Leatt Corporation, which order temporarily restrains them from disclosure of proprietary information about and commercial exploitation of the Leatt Brace ® Moto-R prototype 2.
Tam
If anyone would like to read the patent that HANS claims is being infringed, here it is.
Lizwizz
The survey is blind to keep it from getting a bias. I'll post the results later this month.
defNder
Hey Joe, I just bought 2 FV's, one is complete, and we're building the other. I will also occassionally race a stock car, so I thought this would be a good HNR system for me, considering it's 400 cheaper than the HANS.
Is 549 the price if I buy it from you, or the defNder company?
Good to see you and everyone else at Endurance Karting
BTW: my dad and I have a MARRS race at VIR May 9th and 10th
Steven
Last edited by SMac35; 12.14.08 at 11:47 AM.
SCCA WDCR
Crew # 92 1986 Reynard SF2000
Driver:# 92 1989 ITA Honda Civic Si
That's the price from everyone. They are going to be like most manufacturers and maintain a minimum pricing structure so the big warehouses can't hurt the little stores and vice versa.
I should be at the VIR race in May as well.
Interesting pricing...
as an aside, does anyone know what a HANS buyer 'gives up' when he buys a $695 sport hans versus the $1045 pro hans?
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
a little more weight and the shoulder pads are foam instead of gel. I think they only make the sport in a 20 degree, unless they started making it in other configs. Joe can answer better I am sure.
Weight difference from materials used.
The sport version is injection molded
and the pro version is hi modulus carbon fiber.
The weight is noticeable in your hand (about a pound) but when it's sitting on your shoulders tightened down it isn't.
Stand21 has a variation on the HANS that is significantly lighter than the Pro but they aren't allowed to market/sell them in teh US yet. The yoke is a different shape and the belt guides have more of a compound curve which increases the friction between the belt and the device. Very cool stuff Stand21 is doing, I was lucky enough to have dinner with their founder and crew one night and learned a LOT.
If the 30 isn't out in the Sport version yet, it should be soon as it was supposed to happen, AFAIK, around the time of the consolidation to two levels of HANS from three.
Thanks. Is the DefNder most comparable to the Sport or the Pro, or ...
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
The sport. There is a version in the works that will be comparable to the Pro but I never received an exact timetable on it.
anchor points
What happens if your helmet has the Hans anchor points already installed from the factory. Will the defeNder's helmet system work in the same location? It would seem like a bad idea to drill more holes in the ol shell.
the location and hole siz eis same as HANS....
It looks like a pretty solid device from the photos. I can see how the side impact protection might be better. My brother & I had the old "Darth Vader" style Hans devices and they were much larger & bulkier than the current ones, with a set of three tethers.
We used them in both pro & club endurance races (VW Scirocco & Honda Del Sol) & didn'd find those devices all that cumbersome for pit stops or emergency egress. I doubt this one is going to be much different.
In my opinion many of the egress issues have more to do with the driver's overall physical condition. Personally, if you can't go from fully restrained to completely exiting the vehicle in 30 less than 30 seconds, something needs to be changed. Either you need to re-work your restraints, get back in shape, or find a different hobby.
As far as the device itself goes, I do think it's probably got some good applications for club racing. Since most pro series already mandate built-in side structures (the FIA-style cockpit surrounds in most newer formula cars, the cocoon-style seats in NASCAR, and the mandatory right-side nets in most other series), I think in some respects the DeFenDer is is an answer without a question.
For club racing, that's a different story. Even in the cars with right-side nets, they aren't usually installed all that well and don't have the best containment. This device (or the old-style HANS) are probably better suited, and the price point is a bit lower.
The biggest problem I see is that it does look like a mutilated HANS with a secondary frame attached. Regardless of what you may think of how HANS does business, this device does look very similar in apperance. Other companies have successfullyl made devices that meet the SFI standards that and don't infringe on the patent, so I don't see why a possible suit is a surprise to anyone.
The only other criticism/question I have is why the picked the most hideous possible color for it? That green is painful to look at, even in photos.
I own both a HANS Sport and a DefNder........
There's quite a difference that may not be obvious in the pix. The lower across the chest part is not at all like the HANS, it is a cloth/web like material that is flexible and conforms to the body. The upper green part (ignore the green)... doesn't rest on your chest until lower on your torso.
Last edited by JimLill; 12.26.08 at 2:33 PM.
wanted to bump so you'd see the added pix
Jim--
Not to derail a thread, but what do you think of that Sparco Spy05 lid of yours? Looks great, and I see UPR is still trying to give them away. My 3yo Simpson VUDO is not aging well, I'll say diplomatically....
Dale V.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
the Spy has seen teh track yet but seems to be a great Helmet
I just got my DefNder. Haven't used it in the car yet, but just wearing it around it feels like a very solid piece. My favorite feature is how much side impact support it has and how well it will hold the belts on the harness. I'll be wearing it at the Winter Nationals and all year. I'll let you guys know how it works in the car. I can't wait to try it out.
That's good to hear - still waiting for mine to show up. I'l be using a fairly steep layback seating position in the FE, so I'm anxious to see how it handles this.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Wow, imagine that!
Anyone know what happen to the defnder website? It says Directory Listing Denied. Does this means the website was forced to be shut down?
Last edited by Robert Zecca; 01.11.09 at 2:37 AM.
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