Mandatory H&N restraints again!

[stonebridge20]

mike...a little less turkey tomorrow and a little more time in the gym and i think you'll find room for a HANS. if not the new piper is a little more roomy.

Ric, Being fat is not the problem. The problem is my arm length and pant length is exactly the same as JT's except 1" shorter on the pants. JT's 6'4" and I'm 5'10". Long appendages but you wouldn't know about those things. Anyway,...for either of us to fit in a DB6 we have the wheel up against the dash and have modified the pedals to get them further forward than a stock adjustment would allow. My bead seat is 1/2" thick between the cell and my back and JT uses nothing. He sits on the bare floor and fuel cell. Both of us have our helmets jamed against the rollbar cowel. There is just no room for a Hans or any other type of H&R that sits behind the helmet or extends any further past the rear of the helmet. The Hutchens setup looks too much like something a kinky ex girlfriend used to break out every once in a while and I just don't need those kind of flashbacks!

[M.Sauce]

Myself and many others would all agree that H&N restraints as well as any other safety item that can diminish the chances of injury should be welcomed and recommended.I have a problem with a mandate for one reason only.Many Formula cars do not allow room for the HANS type system for many drivers with short necks.The seating psoitions in many FV's will not allow them as well.I urge everyone to wear a HANS or some sort H&N device if they can.

[cooleyjb]

Ric, Being fat is not the problem. The problem is my arm length and pant length is exactly the same as JT's except 1" shorter on the pants. JT's 6'4" and I'm 5'10". Long appendages but you wouldn't know about those things. !

Methinks you should take up swimming or knuckledragging.... Wow, those measurements make everything tough. How bout you just duct tape your helmet to the engine cowl as you drive out of false grid.

[RussMcB]

Really? I should buy a HNR before an entry fee or travel expenses to just get to a race? What good is a HNR if I'm sitting at home? A bit overkill. :-).

BTW, I am not arguing HNR is not a good idea, only that it has not made it to the top of my list and probably wont until maybe a year from now. Hopefully some day soon.

Also, my checking account doesn't care what I might be able to sell it for some day in the distant future. Something that costs $850 costs $850.

[dc]

Really? I should buy a HNR before an entry fee or travel expenses to just get to a race?

In my opinion? Absolutely. If you can't afford a helmet, driver's suit and a H&N device, you can't afford to race cars. Simple as that.

[stonebridge20]

Methinks you should take up swimming or knuckledragging.... Wow, those measurements make everything tough. How bout you just duct tape your helmet to the engine cowl as you drive out of false grid.

Go ahead and laugh Joe. It's no fun having to cut the bottoms of all your pockets off so you don't push your pants down to your knees every time you put your hands in your pockets!

[mark defer]

these discussions are always filled with stories of people like the frog saying that they are sure they be dead if they hadn't been wearing their hans, or people that say they've seen several accidents in which the hans saved somebody's life. but they really can't prove that can they? in all cases there might have been no neck injuries at all even without the hans. and if it was true that the hans really did prevent severe neck injuries in all these cases, then we should have been seeing or hearing about dozens of such injuries or deaths yearly before the hans ever came on the scene. but guess what, we didn't. .
as i've stated before, i own a hans, and i wear it when mandated. but when i do a national, it stays in my gear bag.

mark d

[WCR25]

It's no fun having to cut the bottoms of all your pockets off so you don't push your pants down to your knees every time you put your hands in your pockets!

Well, we now know why you never have any $$$ in those pockets!!

TW

[Daryl DeArman]

When our system is structured so that someone elses' decisions have absolutely ZERO effect on my life, let them do whatever they want. Until then...

Go ahead SCCA make a HNR mandatory, just don't mandate a HANS device. Do not force me to be less safe than I wish to be, you could be leaving your organization extremely vulnerable. If you feel the need to hide behind the SFI sticker, whatever buffer that may or may not be, so be it. I still feel there are at least 2 SFI stickered devices that rank higher on the save my neck list than the HANS.

[stonebridge20]

Well, we now know why you never have any $$$ in those pockets!!

TW

You know,...I see you here lurking every damn day and you finally put your first ever post up. Lucky me, it's to bust my a$$. Thanks Porkchop!

[WCR25]

You know,...I see you here lurking every damn day and you finally put your first ever post up. Lucky me, it's to bust my a$$. Thanks Porkchop!

Pleasure's all mine Bro. No longer a virgin! Happy Thanksgiving.

TW

[azjc]

Myself and many others would all agree that H&N restraints as well as any other safety item that can diminish the chances of injury should be welcomed and recommended.I have a problem with a mandate for one reason only.Many Formula cars do not allow room for the HANS type system for many drivers with short necks.The seating psoitions in many FV's will not allow them as well.I urge everyone to wear a HANS or some sort H&N device if they can.

I read comments like this and ask.... why drive a car that you don't fit in while utilizing all of the latest safety devices? If I could not have fit in my Reynard in a safe manner (that includes a HNR) I'd have sold it & moved on to a different car. Why in the world would I want to NOT use every safety device available? It took quite a bit of work but my 6'2" 195# frame fits just fine with a under $500 defNder HNR - heck my Bell Dominator helmet cost quite a bit more then that!

[carnut169]

Really? I should buy a HNR before an entry fee or travel expenses to just get to a race? What good is a HNR if I'm sitting at home? A bit overkill. :-).

BTW, I am not arguing HNR is not a good idea, only that it has not made it to the top of my list and probably wont until maybe a year from now. Hopefully some day soon.

Also, my checking account doesn't care what I might be able to sell it for some day in the distant future. Something that costs $850 costs $850.

Russ, if I didn't care about you, I wouldn't care if your wore a H&N device.

We are talking about sitting one race out, not a season. If you went with the GForce or a used Hutchens you probably wouldn't even have to sit one out, yet you'd have some protection from the massive G-load that a failure/ accident can expose you to.

People have died that were not wearing a H&N device. From Wikipedia:

" major cause of death amongst drivers during races was through violent head movements, where the body remains in place because of the seat belts but the momentum keeps the head moving forwards, causing a Basilar skull fracture resulting in serious injury or immediate death.
Notable race car drivers who died from Basilar skull fractures include:

• Formula 1 driver Roland Ratzenberger[3] in the 1994 San Marino Formula One Grand Prix
• Indy 500 drivers Bill Vukovich and Tony Bettenhausen
• NASCAR drivers Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Kenny Irwin Jr., Neil Bonnett, John Nemechek, Blaise Alexander, Dale Earnhardt, J. D. McDuffie and Clifford Allison
• CART drivers Jovy Marcelo and Gonzalo Rodriguez

While death from such injuries is usually immediate, some drivers have survived Basilar skull fractures such as NASCAR's Ernie Irvan.
Dr. Hubbard has had extensive experience as a biomechanical crash engineer, including in General Motors' auto safety program. His first prototype was developed in 1985, and in crash tests in 1989 -- the first to use crash sleds and crash dummies using race car seat belt harnesses -- the energy exerted on the head and neck was lowered by some 80%.[2]
After major racing safety companies declined to produce the product, Hubbard and Downing formed Hubbard Downing Inc, to develop, manufacture, sell and promote the HANS in 1991. However, the product languished until 1994, when Formula 1 showed interest in the wake of deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna. In 1999, CART driver Gonzalo Rodriguez was killed after suffering a basilar skull fracture in a crash. At the same time, Mercedes was completing research of the HANS for their Formula 1 program, finally deciding that it out-performed their airbag project.[4]
On February 18, 2001, Dale Earnhardt Sr. was killed in the Daytona 500, the 4th death in NASCAR in a 14-month span due to basilar skull fractures. While it is still debated whether his death was the result of a broken seat belt, or inadequate head and neck restraint, the fact remained that he died of a Basilar skull fracture, which is prevented by the proper use of belts and a head / neck restraint. Dr. Hubbard is quoted:

"...(I was) shocked by that. I recorded about 80 entries in my telephone log the first day. And I didn't even write them all down. I was on National television 10 times that Monday. I had been down in Florida and came home on Friday and went cross country skiing in Michigan. So, I didn't know he died until I got home and there was voice mail on my answering machine at 10 o'clock at night. I actually had 2 interviews that night before I went to bed."[2]

Before this point, many drivers, including Earnhardt Sr.,[5] resisted the HANS (and similar) devices, claiming them to be uncomfortable, more restrictive and fearing that it would cause more injuries and problems than it prevented. Some stated that the positioning of the device made the seat belts feel less secure or rubbed on the shoulders or collar bone. Earnhardt Sr. himself referred to the device as "that damn noose", claiming the tethers would sooner hang him than save him in the event of a crash.[5] However, drivers were not willing to participate in the process of perfecting the fit, and endure the limitations imposed by such devices.
The device was first adopted by the National Hot Rod Association in 1996, following the death of Top Fuel driver Blaine Johnson, but wasn't a mandatory device until 2004, after the death of 2003 Top Fuel Rookie of the Year Darrell Russell, who was killed during the Sears Craftsman Nationals in Madison, Illinois. Since that time, all drivers in all categories, either professional, or sportsman, must wear a HANS device, or risk immediate disqualification from the event. Much like NASCAR, the NHRA authorized the use of both the HANS, and the Hutchens device until 2005, when the HANS became the sole head and neck restraint device used. The major difference between the HANS device used in NASCAR, CART, or Formula 1, and the one used in the NHRA is that the main part of the device is molded from high strength polymers, and custom made to fit the individual driver. The NHRA version is also wrapped with seven layers of Nomex fabric, which is the same material as the seven layer fire suits that all NHRA drivers must wear. This extra precaution prevents the device from melting should an engine fire occur.
Formula One mandated HANS devices in 2003 after extensive testing, sharing the results with other FIA affiliates. Using that information, CART made the device compulsory for oval tracks in 2001, later requiring the HANS devices for all circuits. Starting in October, 2001, NASCAR mandated either the HANS or Hutchens device head and neck restraint be used, going with the HANS device exclusively starting in 2005. ARCA followed suit in the wake of a basal skull fracture crash fatality in an ARCA race at Lowe's in October 2001 which claimed the life of Blaise Alexander. The World Rally Championship and Australian V8 Supercar Series made the device compulsory for drivers in the 2005 season.
The initial acceptance by drivers was helped by the addition of quick release "shackles". These shackles were developed and implemented by Ashley Tilling. They were sourced from the marine industry, being used on racing sailboats rigging. The shackles allowed the drivers a simple and quick pull to release the HANS device and exit their vehicle. Many felt much more comfortable using the device with the shackles. The first driver to utilize them was, then NASCAR driver, Scott Pruett of PPI Motorsports. The "Shackles" were also used on the Hutchens device and others.
Today, most major auto racing sanctioning bodies mandate the use of head and neck restraints - the FIA has made HANS use compulsory for all International-level events from the beginning of 2009. Even monster truck drivers use the HANS device in many events.
Starting in July 2007, many sanctioning bodies have approved any head-and-neck restraint which passes the SFI Foundation Specification 38.1 standard. They are the HANS, Moto-R Sport, R3, Hutch-II, Hutchens Hybrid, or Hybrid X.

[mark defer]

impressive list of deaths from neck injuries.
however....maybe i missed something, but i didn't see any deaths on that list from the kind of cars scca types drive. the fact is that we just don't see those types of injuries or deaths at our level. could it happen? possibly. but in all the years i've been racing i've never been at an event where it happened. as i mentioned in a similar post a few months back, even steve lathrop, one of the most safety conscious formula car constructors out there told me this summer that hans devices are "overkill" in our cars.
if someone wants to wear one and it makes them feel safer that's great. just don't mandate it so i have to.

mark d

[Peter Olivola]

Mark,

Chris Hundley's accident at the Portland Cooper Series round in 2006 was described to HANS, including the nature of his injuries. Even at the reduced speeds compared to CART/ChampCar, it was very similar to the Adrian Fernandez incident and elicited the same response. Direct vertical loads are transferred to the upper torso by design as it's the strongest part of the body. Without his HANS, Chris would not have survived. There was nothing about the equipment or that incident that couldn't be repeated in Club Racing.

impressive list of deaths from neck injuries.
however....maybe i missed something, but i didn't see any deaths on that list from the kind of cars scca types drive. the fact is that we just don't see those types of injuries or deaths at our level. could it happen? possibly. but in all the years i've been racing i've never been at an event where it happened. as i mentioned in a similar post a few months back, even steve lathrop, one of the most safety conscious formula car constructors out there told me this summer that hans devices are "overkill" in our cars.
if someone wants to wear one and it makes them feel safer that's great. just don't mandate it so i have to.

mark d

[Daryl DeArman]

Why in the world would I want to NOT use every safety device available?

Because at some point, just like ALL of us, you reached a point where you were comfortable with the safety equipment choices you made. We ALL make compromises in the decisions as to what safety devices we wear. When is the last time you saw a road racer wearing a SFI 3.2A/20 rated suit? How about a car with a 20# Halon system?

Much like NASCAR, the NHRA authorized the use of both the HANS, and the Hutchens device until 2005, when the HANS became the sole head and neck restraint device used.

That needs an update. Since the death of Eric Medlen the HANS is no longer required in NHRA. John Force lost the "son he never had" and went on a mission to improve the safety of the entire funny car package. The Eric Medlen project was created, experts working on the project include Dr. John Melvin, folks from Ford, the SFI and NHRA. None of John's team, including his own Daughter now wear the HANS device. They have found, that for their situation there is a better SFI-stickered device.

even steve lathrop, one of the most safety conscious formula car constructors out there told me this summer that hans devices are "overkill" in our cars.

Mark, there may not be a more knowledgeable or safety conscious constructor out there. Either Steve is being misquoted or this one thing he is ignorant about. Any race car (even a FV) can go fast enough to kill you should it stop fast enough. Thankfully, RARELY does anybody stop fast enough to have such issues.

[Daryl DeArman]

Without his HANS, Chris would not have survived.

Impossible to prove....but I understand your point. Perhaps without any HNR device the forces he may have been subjected to would likley have been fatal. Any number of HNR devices may have served him just as well or better.

[mark defer]

hi peter,
sorry, your list [of one] is not near as impressive.
look, i admitted that it's possible to sustain a fatal neck injury in our cars.
however, consider this. in all the years before hans type devices were available, we just haven't seen many of those injuries at the amateur level. take years [30?]x events [100s] x cars per event [100s] . that's just scca. then consider all saturday night small circle track stuff going on. if this was really on the radar screen as a risk we should have seen multiple serious neck injuries weekly.
but we didn't.
yes it COULD happen. but if you use that reasoning we better go to full cages on formula cars because you COULD flip upside down on a guard rail, or another car COULD intrude into your cockpit. i would say more people have been injured that way over the years than had serious neck injurires, but no one clamoring to have full cages made mandatory. because that is a risk that we are willing to accept because it is so minimal.
come to think of it, how many of us have been hit by a loose tire off your own car, or someone elses car. i have. better throw some wheel tethers on all scca cars as well. there's another risk we live with because we deem it "acceptable".
as for steve lathrop's quote, yes he used the term "overkill". he agrees with me, it could happen, but it rarely does in our cars, thus making the risk insignificant, rendering the use of such devices "overkill".

mark d

[Bill Steele]

I posted this once before on another thread,

I raced for years without anything like a HANS. When I came back to racing a little over three years ago, after some time off, I was surprised so many were wearing the HANS. A few fellow drivers came over and recommended I buy a HANS. I always thanked them for their concern, and thought to myself, "hell I have been racing for decades and never needed a HANS, why now?"

At a drivers meeting a couple of seasons ago, one of the drivers in FF that had been racing when I quit last and was still racing when I returned got up and recounted an incident he had at Laguna Seca. He urged everyone to get a HANS. He explained that the crash he was in (not on the fastest part of the track) resulted in chips around his Basal Skull area. The surgeon that attended to his injury said he was within a mm or two of certain death due to a basal skull fracture. He had been within a few millimeters of certain death in that crash.

Can we die from a basal skull fractures at the speeds we drive in SCCA, even in a slow class like FF? Absolutely.

I bought a HANS and made the required changes to my belt anchors before the next race I ran that season. I would not drive my race car without my HANS.

For those that just don't want to wear one, can't afford one, or, or, or, I understand, just remember: dead is forever.

[Peter Olivola]

The forces necessary to cause Chris' injuries would have been fatal just as the forces necessary to cause Andrian Fernandez' injuries would have been fatal. Both were wearing HANS. I'm satisfied the device saved both lives. That's the limit of what I'm prepared to say. It in no way is intended to imply an endorsement of HANS or rejection of any other device. Please take your anti-HANS rant elsewhere. It has no place in the discussion since no device is named in the Fastrack item.

Impossible to prove....but I understand your point. Perhaps without any HNR device the forces he may have been subjected to would likley have been fatal. Any number of HNR devices may have served him just as well or better.

[Matt King]

A HANS device is a head-and-neck restraint, but not all head-and-neck restraints are HANS devices. Just thought I would point that out since a few people in this thread seem confused about the distinction.

[Peter Olivola]

It may have been before your time, Mark, but I witnessed an FV fatality at Lime Rock that was very similar to Chris Hundley's incident. It's also likely that Tom Stewart's fatality, also at Lime Rock, would have had a different outcome had there been the H&NR equipment now available. As for short track, the massive roll structures used on contemporary midgets and sprints do a much better job of preventing verticle impact loads. Unfortunately, that lesson was learned the hard way at great cost in lives. I see no reason to wait to repeat that experience.

hi peter,
sorry, your list [of one] is not near as impressive.
look, i admitted that it's possible to sustain a fatal neck injury in our cars.
however, consider this. in all the years before hans type devices were available, we just haven't seen many of those injuries at the amateur level. take years [30?]x events [100s] x cars per event [100s] . that's just scca. then consider all saturday night small circle track stuff going on. if this was really on the radar screen as a risk we should have seen multiple serious neck injuries weekly.
but we didn't.
yes it COULD happen. but if you use that reasoning we better go to full cages on formula cars because you COULD flip upside down on a guard rail, or another car COULD intrude into your cockpit. i would say more people have been injured that way over the years than had serious neck injurires, but no one clamoring to have full cages made mandatory. because that is a risk that we are willing to accept because it is so minimal.
come to think of it, how many of us have been hit by a loose tire off your own car, or someone elses car. i have. better throw some wheel tethers on all scca cars as well. there's another risk we live with because we deem it "acceptable".
as for steve lathrop's quote, yes he used the term "overkill". he agrees with me, it could happen, but it rarely does in our cars, thus making the risk insignificant, rendering the use of such devices "overkill".

mark d

[Jnovak]

I just have to chime in here about the use of H&N restraints.

1. There are many different type of H&N restraints that have been proven effective in crash tests. I think the HANS has the best test results but there are several others that are very effective.

2. You guys talk about there is no proof that they help. The best example that they work is that there has never been a fatality due to a basal skull fracture or other neck fracture while a driver was wearing a HANS device. This is well documented by the FIA. What more do you want?

3. NASCAR has had numerous fatalities due to basal skull fractures but NOT A SINGLE ONE SINCE THEY MANDATED H&N restraints.

4. H&N restraint cost between $350 & $1000 foir specials. I bought my HANS used for $350 off of APEXSPEED. Thanks Apex!

5. How much do you spend on tires/weekend?

6. How much is your life worth?

I do agree that the SCCA should not mandate a single device, however times change & so does the equipment needed to race. A H&N device will save lives. & it just might be yours.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[CAM]

In my second SCCA race, 2006 in a Formula First car @ Watkins Glen I witnessed a driver go head on at the toe of the boot.

At the time he was passing for the lead of the race I was in third place right behind, perfect view. He was really late in braking for the corner on the inside got onto the marbles and went straight off, launched over the curbing head on into the outside retaining wall. From my vantage point I thought his helmet came off! myself and the other driver were able to continue on and the race was red flagged and ended 2 laps early.

The force of the impact was so severe it broke the engine & transmission mounts. The engine came far enough forward to break the firewall and push the fuel cell into his back. The frontal impact caused the center section of the body work to break off it's mountings, pushing back until the lip over the steering wheel struck his lower spoiler on the front of his helmet! It broke the front spoiler, causing the helmet to rotate on his head, it was properly sized, causing a hematoma on his forehead the size of a baseball!

The driver was transported to the hospital. When the remnants of his car arrived in the paddock we all pitched in to get it in his trailer, where a HANS device was hanging on the door!

Rob Houghton was at the site of the impact having retired out of the race with a broken throttle cable and said it was one of the worst impacts he had ever witnessed.

Three of us drivers went to visit the driver of the car in the accident in the hospital prior to leaving the Glen area. He had no recollection of the accident. I asked him about the HANS and he said it was very uncomfortable in that car. He was in the hospital for a few days and required surgery to relieve the hematoma.

I vowed to not get in a race car again unless I had a HANS type device. I chose and use the R-3.

I really hate when some one mandates something, but in this case I would gladly buy another device if my R-3 becomes non compliant.

It really bothers me when I hear we are not going fast enough to warrant the need for a HANS type device, complete BS!

I really think you have to ask yourself if you participate in this sport what is the true cost of not wearing one? Even if if it saves you that one time, I'm sure that hospital stay cost the driver referenced above way more than any HANS device, in lost work and medical bills.

I also cannot stand when other posters say we just don't have these types of injuries from accidents in club racing. Not to bash the SCCA but are they really investigating accidents of Joe Blow weekend racer as throughly as Dale Sr. or Ayrton Senna, I doubt it.

My .02 worth

Do your self a Favor & get a HANS Type Device!


Carl

[mark defer]

okay peter, your up tp 3. keep 'em coming.
btw, i'm not anti hans device. i just perfer not to wear one myself if i'm not required to.
but again i ask. why not full cage roll structures?
why not tethers?
there have been serious injuries in club racing for lack of these safety features,
just how safe do we want to make it? who's picking and choosing which risks are more acceptable?
as far as oval stuff, most of the oval stuff [stockers] that i used to race had NO crushable structures to absorb some of the impact. you're right, the cages[and bumpers] were massive and unrelenting. we should have been seeing all kinds of neck injuries but...we didn't.

mark d

[Jtovo]

I never enjoyed wearing my hans or dfender. I hit a wall at Road America doing about 110. I am told that I wouldnt be the self indulgent prick I am today if I wasnt wearing one. It is like insurance, you only really need it if something bad happens.

I will not get in a car without one.

Mark,
Maybe you shouldnt wear one.

[Peter Olivola]

Mark,

I think it's reasonable to think that Pete Lyon has the statistics. SCCA has never released such information. That's a subject for an entirely different conversation.

I have had occasion to discuss this very issue with Dr. Jeff Gaver, Medical Director of Road America. He showed me the information sheet he uses to record every patient seen in paddock medical. Keep in mind he doesn't see drivers from the major pro series who travel with their own medical staff. I asked him if he had enough data over a long enough period of time to be able to detect any trends. His answer was yes. The frequency and severity of injury has been reduced in direct relationship to the increasing use of the HANS. That's probably the closest we're likely to get to real statistical information.

As for personal observations, and while it's difficult to extrapolate useful statistical data from one persons experience, over 42 years I have seen a noticible decrease in the frequency and severity of injuries and a marked reduction in fatalities. That trend started before HANS existed as the club upgraded safety equipment requirements.

One small sample from the 2007 Kettle Regional at Road America where I was Safety Steward. We had seven drivers involved in impact incidents. One was transported for a lower extremity injury. Only one other driver complained of any pain or discomfort and he was the only one not wearing a HANS.

At the Cat National in 2008 Tony Smith had heavy nose impact driver's left at the Kink when his wing detatched and caught under his front tires. He walked into race control to review the video. He wore a HANS.

So, it isn't just a life saving issue. It's also about injury reduction. Not as dramatic or attention getting as talking about life and death, but probably an even bigger factor overall.

okay peter, your up tp 3. keep 'em coming.
btw, i'm not anti hans device. i just perfer not to wear one myself if i'm not required to.
but again i ask. why not full cage roll structures?
why not tethers?
there have been serious injuries in club racing for lack of these safety features,
just how safe do we want to make it? who's picking and choosing which risks are more acceptable?
as far as oval stuff, most of the oval stuff [stockers] that i used to race had NO crushable structures to absorb some of the impact. your right, the cages[and bumpers] were massive and unrelenting. we should have been seeing all kinds of neck injuries but...we didn't.

mark d

[mark defer]

okay peter.
so what about full roll cages on formula cars?
what about tethers?
what is an acceptable risk?

mark d

[Daryl DeArman]

Please take your anti-HANS rant elsewhere. It has no place in the discussion since no device is named in the Fastrack item.

Gee, sorry Peter you seem to feel that I am "ranting". We are discussing whether or not HNRs should be mandatory by the SCCA. Some feel that the HANS should be mandatory. There is an important distinction to be made between a HANS and the term HNR. When I am comfortable that the SCCA isn't considering making the HANS mandatory I'll shut up. Until then I suggest you use the "ignore" feature available on this site if you don't want to hear/read peoples' opinions that differ from yours.

I know, I know "somebody say something?"

[Purple Frog]

Jeez,
Shouldn't you guys be helping your wives stuff a turkey or something?

Everybody knows from years of ranting where I stand on H&N systems. I'm not sure i buy the argument that one doesn't fit in the car with one. There are so many different makes and models to chose from. I have modified two cars (cutting and welding) to be able to use a HANS.

I'm not sure it should be mandatory. But such a rule wouldn't effect me, for it already is mandatory for me.

Russ, luv ya man, but i don't agree with your priorities. But they are your priorities.

On Thanksgiving, I always give thanks to DaveW for telling me I had to get one in the spring of 2005.

Mark, you don't need one.

[Peter Olivola]

Who else beside you is inferring this claim that only HANS is being considered?

Gee, sorry Peter you seem to feel that I am "ranting". We are discussing whether or not HNRs should be mandatory by the SCCA. Some feel that the HANS should be mandatory. There is an important distinction to be made between a HANS and the term HNR. When I am comfortable that the SCCA isn't considering making the HANS mandatory I'll shut up. Until then I suggest you use the "ignore" feature available on this site if you don't want to hear/read peoples' opinions that differ from yours.

I know, I know "somebody say something?"

[924RACR]

I'm 100% with Daryl. I use one religiously, I insisted my wife use one and get used to it when she got in the car (this is a woman who doesn't even like having the visor down - tintop car - due to claustrophobia).

But the current options for SCCA to mandate use of an HNR can 100% be expected to rule out some very good options - one of which I use, have used for many years, and has decidedly saved my neck twice in some impressive impacts.

This is what 95% of you are missing: taking away free choice in safety through mandates. This is what I most emphatically do not support.

The rules are just fine as is.

Happy Turkey Day.

[Peter Olivola]

Full rollcages: Contrary to the annual rant on the Prod forum, there is no evidence that formula cars would benefit from full cages. There is growing evidence that head and neck restraints provide significant evidence.

I have no information on tethers beyond their use in F1 and Indy Car. If there is evidence that loose wheels/suspension pieces are causing additional injuries/deaths to other than the driver it would certainly be worth a look.

There is sufficient information about head and neck restraints to justify consideration for making them mandatory. The roll cage/tether argument is nothing more than an attempt to deflect the discussion. Head and neck restraints reduce injuries and save lives.

Do you think it was wrong to require seat belts before shoulder harnesses and sub belts? Was it wrong to require borax soaked overalls before Nomex? Assumption of risk aside, the knowledge base that drives safety improvements is both dynamic and ever enlarging. If, over time, following the mandating of head and neck restraints, there is the same level of data to support full rollcages and tethers, it would be irresponsible of the club not to consider them as well. Until then, we have a proposal for head and neck restraints on the table. Failing to do good because it doesn't achieve perfection is an equal definition of evil.

okay peter.
so what about full roll cages on formula cars?
what about tethers?
what is an acceptable risk?

mark d

[RussMcB]

AFAIK, the following single sentence is the only formal communication published thus far regarding this topic:

From Dec '09 Fastrack:

"The mandatory use of head and neck restraints will be discussed at the November CRB face to face meeting and a report will be generated for Board review at its December meeting."

That prompts a couple of questions:

1. Has the November meeting happened yet?

2. Are those the only two planned steps? Is this one of those things they choose not to have a formal 'request for member input' phase?

BTW, I don't see anything in that statement that says they are only considering HANS or will not consider others. I wonder why some people think it may be limited. Personal conversations?

[mark defer]

peter,
i'm no engineer, so i don't understand all the dynamics involved. hell, i don't know much about anything other than tires.
i base my opinions on the fact that of all the races have participated in since '73, i can't remember a time when someone was paralyized or died from a neck injury. and i've seen some bad wrecks, deaths, loss of limbs, etc.
remember tony ave's crash in the back of calvin stewart's parked FC at road america. there's an accident that i guarantee you someone would have said he'd be dead if he wasn't wearing a hans. yet he wasn't wearing a hans and he didn't die. got pretty messed up, but he's still racing.
then there's the poor FF guy that crashed into the back of the parked FM at 80-90 mph on that screwed up split start at Mid Ohio. No hans device there either. Lost both legs but no severe neck injury.
so basically i'm basing my opinion the same way you are. although i have no hard statistical evidence to support my opinion, i have years of observation at the track that tells me that at this level of racing, the incidence of severe neck injuries is rare.
then when i have a conversation with steve lathrop this summer and he says that the devices are "overkill" in our cars, it just reaffirms my opinion because i know what a stickler steve is about safety..
anyway, we'll just have to disagree, but i wish you a happy thanksgiving none the less.

mark d

[Peter Olivola]

There is an interesting difference between the incidents you describe and the ones I listed. Your examples are car to car contact. Mine are car to (relatively) immovable object. The key factor in any crash is the g-force/time numbers. A 1200 lb car hitting another 1200 lb car, even while stopped, produces lower numbers than the same 1200 lb car at the same speed hitting the concrete barriers at the Kink or an inverted car landing on the road surface. As spectacular as a sprint car flipping over the wall at Salem looks, it's dissipating an enormous amount of energy doing so.

It's difficult to counter Gaver's statistics. My understanding is that it's based on standard epidemiological analysis techniques. I'm not in that field, either, so, like you, I have to rely on the best information available.

As for the rest, this is the only day of the year when I can tell you to get stuffed and know you'll receive it in the positive way it's intended. Happy Thanksgiving, Mark.

peter,
i'm no engineer, so i don't understand all the dynamics involved. hell, i don't know much about anything other than tires.
i base my opinions on the fact that of all the races have participated in since '73, i can't remember a time when someone was paralyized or died from a neck injury. and i've seen some bad wrecks, deaths, loss of limbs, etc.
remember tony ave's crash in the back of calvin stewart's parked FC at road america. there's an accident that i guarantee you someone would have said he'd be dead if he wasn't wearing a hans. yet he wasn't wearing a hans and he didn't die. got pretty messed up, but he's still racing.
then there's the poor FF guy that crashed into the back of the parked FM at 80-90 mph on that screwed up split start at Mid Ohio. No hans device there either. Lost both legs but no severe neck injury.
so basically i'm basing my opinion the same way you are. although i have no hard statistical evidence to support my opinion, i have years of observation at the track that tells me that at this level of racing, the incidence of severe neck injuries is rare.
then when i have a conversation with steve lathrop this summer and he says that the devices are "overkill" in our cars, it just reaffirms my opinion because i know what a stickler steve is about safety..
anyway, we'll just have to disagree, but i wish you a happy thanksgiving none the less.

mark d

[Jnovak]

okay peter.
so what about full roll cages on formula cars?
what about tethers?
what is an acceptable risk?

mark d

Mark, roll cages on cars do not prevent basal skull fracture. If they did there would not have been so many fatalities due to basal skull fractures in oval racing.

Basal skull fracture is caused when the head & helmet continue forward (or on some angle) when the vehicle suddenly stops. This causes the spine to fracture at the base of the skull causing instant death & roll cages will not prevent this from happening.

H&N restraints prevent this from happening.

Try it you will like it. You can borrow mine for fitting & use if you want.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Tom Sprecher]

I did not wake up on the wrong side of the bed. My post was not aimed at anyone in particular, but at many people in general, about this subject and others, who insist I be forced to do something because they feel they know what is best for me.

Many call it the Nanny State and I for one am sick and tired of it. What ever happened to free choice. Who took it away and why? What do people get out of interfering in other's lives? And don't tell me cheaper insurance either as it would not make a dent according to Pete Lyon's presentation at last years Convention.

The bit about not having the money I wish were not the case, but it is, so when I can afford to race again I will, without an HNR, and again accept that risk/reward ratio. Once the dust has settled I'll buy the approved HNR.

Look, I already have a wife and a mother and don't need any more. All I ask is that you let me be the one who decides how to live my racing life.

[dc]

In none of my readings or discussions with anyone about the potential for a mandate in the SCCA have I heard mention of the mandatory use of a HANS device, specifically. The Fastrack blurb is referring to H&N devices, in general. My guess is that if something is mandated, they will follow other safety requirements and look for an SFI or FIA certification of the product.

I don't know where some of you guys get this stuff, but the over-the-top black helicopter SCCA paranoia is almost comical.

[Josh Pitt]

"The mandatory use of head and neck restraints will be discussed at the November CRB face to face meeting and a report will be generated for Board review at its December meeting."

I don't see anything in that statement that says they are only considering HANS or will not consider others. I wonder why some people think it may be limited. Personal conversations?

I really have no idea why people would think it is only the HANS that is being considered.
I would think it would be any HNR that is SFI aprroved and allows for exit of the vehicle w/o any additional step needed to be taken. i.e. still is just one movement(undoing the harness latch) for release of the driver restraint sytem so the driver is able to exit the car.

I think there are several systems that fit this desciption, and some that dont.

I also think that "HANS" has become a generic term for a HNR, which seems to cause some confusion.
I wont get in my car w/o my HANS device, because thats the device of my choosing.
whatever the approved device that you prefer, just use it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RinuSRqMaM

"its better to have and not need, than to need and not have"