Lower driver's age?

[Kartracer33]

That is a pretty good idea about letting 15 year olds race a class like junior dragster for NHRA. But the problem i see with that is a lot of adults aren't gonna buy there kids new cars just to do a year of SCCA Regionals. Also there wouldn't be many kids at a regional and the compatition level would be really low. If that was gonna happen they should just stay in karts.

And i hear people talking about the kids just ripping the cars up cause they don't pay for it. And that daddy will just buy more parts for it. And i don't know about other people but im pretty tight on money right now with how the economy is and i wouldn't go tearing up a car to win a regional. Or for that matter tearing up someone elses car because that just puts one more guy out. And especially in formula cars there are not as many as there used to be. You'll get lucky if 10-15 cars show up. So i wouldn't want to make the field even smaller.

[KevinFirlein]

you could actually create a junior division in SCCA but I doubt it would work for a reason I'll post in a second. Lets just deal with open wheel for the premises of this debate. You could take a car , the FRCCA Banshee,, and make it the spec junior division car. I say the Banshee since its price is more or less affordable for anyone who seriously is looking into this. Call the class 'Junior Formula' not formula junior or the vintage boys will lose their minds. The Banshee really has no place to run properly in SCCA so this would give them a new market. The car is slower then a FF so it should work there as well. Makeit eligble for 14-16 year olds only. You would have to decide it the rules was highest attained age during season or age at start. Spec a really hard tire to hold down cost further. This would allow parents / kids to get a taste without having to worry about taking on the 'professional' FF / FC pilots that SCCA has and the money it would take. If they enjoy the SCCA experience they sell the car to a newcomer and move up to a full national 'senior' class. Perfect and should make everyone happy.

Now here is why it wouldnt work out well. Who do they race with ? To make it viable its got to be 14-16 since noone is gonna be in a big hurry to buyt a car for one year. I cant see regions wanting to turn them loose with the normal open wheel groups. 14 year old in a Banshee and a guy testing for the runoffs in a FA at a regional would make everyone nervous. Would take years if at all to have enough to generate a seperate group. I know DC Region would never allow a run group for it by itself nor would they want to combine it anywhere. Who cares that it generates new members and racers, lets just worry about increase spec miate and IT race lengths would be their mindset.

Great idea but making it work would be damn difficult.

link for Banshee cars http://www.frcca.com/modules.php?name=Banshee

[Kartracer33]

Yeah you have good ideas. I think a class similar to that could start in a couple years possibly. But i think people are forgetting the fact that its not like 15 year olds jump out of karts and into a car right away. We will still have to get parental consent, have a couple years in karts, and get signed off by the region director. then we have to go to driver school. So we would be just like a 16 year old going to driver school and then racing. I don't know, people are just never gonna agree on this issue.

[James Hill]

They are not going to agree because they don't want to be beaten by a 15 year old. They would rather not race.

[Kartracer33]

Your exactly right. I was at Nelson Ledges and there were 2 or 3 rookie drivers that got out of karts and they won there 1st car race.

[James Hill]

Maybe it's the 64 year old guys that need there own special class to run in.

[Matt King]

Maybe it's the 64 year old guys that need there own special class to run in.

They have that...it's called "SCCA."

[Steve Demeter]

I doubt that anyone would question the raw talent of some of the top young kart racers.

That is not the issue.

The issue is that at 15, I don't care what you tell me, they do not have the understanding that they are mortal. If they take themselves out, fine. But the problem comes in when they take someone else with them.

And I get whipped regularly by ypoung kids and lots of 60 year olds and up. EGO is NOT the issue.


I ramble, but the point is that while there are with no doubt 15 year olds with the talent and comomon sense and wisdom to race in SCCA, the real trick is to weed out the ones that do not have them.

I do not think that it is within the ability of SCCA officialdom to do so.

[Peter Horvath]

This is G.W. Henderson (NEDIV) in the January Sportscar: "It is no simple answer to find what SCCA needs to do to attrack our future lifeblood. Those of us with whitening tops and failing libidos are only fooling ourselves in thinking of our longevity with no future in sight. The question is simple: What must we do to attract the young blood?"

The answer is simple: more young drivers.

When my son Vaughn entered the 2006 Skip Barber Karting Scholarship Shoot-Out in 2006, the winner was a 14 year old by the name of Alexander Rossi. Rossi entered an F1 junior try-out a few weeks ago.

Don't make it more difficult for young drivers to race. Don't increase the cost of cars, travel or track time. Share the knowledge and experience. Stop increasing the weight of the cars. Adding weight only makes fat guys more competitive.

[Charles Warner]

That is not the issue.

The issue is that at 15, I don't care what you tell me, they do not have the understanding that they are mortal. If they take themselves out, fine. But the problem comes in when they take someone else with them.

The attitudes and answers evidenced in this forum by the younger ones pretty much reinforce the point you make. Responsibility, maturity and respectfulness are learned over time.

I do not think that it is within the ability of SCCA officialdom to do so.

If these young'uns want to move into the pro ranks then let them play in the pro pool. The Club (SCCA) is for amateur racers who want to enjoy their sport. To use the Club ranks to get the experience to move up in the sport does nothing for the Club as a whole as these kids are only focused on themselves and movin' on up.

[Daryl DeArman]

The attitudes and answers evidenced in this forum by the younger ones pretty much reinforces the point you make. Responsibility, maturity and respectfulness are learned over time.

He says to the guy who said "I don't care what you tell me"

If these young'uns want to move into the pro ranks then let them play in the pro pool. The Club (SCCA) is for amateur racers who want to enjoy their sport. To use the Club ranks to get the experience to move up in the sport does nothing for the Club as a whole as these kids are only focused on themselves and movin' on up.

Which is exactly why they aren't coming to the SCCA now. Then the SCCA wonders why the greying of the membership? Some of us complain about the lack of new blood, but then we don't offer them anything they can't already get somewhere else. The SCCA can't be everything to everybody.

You want new blood? Try going after the karters in their late 20's and older. The ones who are old enough to realize they probably aren't going to be the next superstar, but young enough to not want to quit. They probably don't want to hang up the helmet, but can't forsee racing karts for the rest of their lives. We need to attract the hobbiest.

Drag racers are tinkerers and gearheads....they might like to give it a shot.

I can tell you from first hand experience that many people ignorant of the real costs of road racing asume it is much more expensive than it really is. Road racers come accross as elitist (wine and cheese instead of beer and brats) or our racing is much more difficult than yours. I assure you that the karting tracks and the drag strips have budgets just as varied as any SCCA event and that it isn't any more difficult to race X vs. Y, it's just different and requires different skills to succeed.

[Charles Warner]

Then the SCCA wonders why the greying of the membership? Some of us complain about the lack of new blood, but then we don't offer them anything they can't already get somewhere else. The SCCA can't be everything to everybody.

I don't think anyone wonders at the greying of the Club. It has been happening for years. The reduction in membership has also been exacerbated by the creation of all the other organizations over the years that have decimated the Club ranks. The influx of money, tremendous social and societal changes involving attitudes and responsibilities have done a lot towards changing our overall system. The economic changes of late certainly have reduced participation. It is possible the Club, as the entity it began as, can not sustain itself. As you said, it can not be all things to all people. Maybe said another way, it can't be all classes to all racers.

At the end of the day, reducing the driving age will not, IMO, attract enough extra membership to make a whit of difference to the bottom line. Let's not waste Club resources on developing a system that will include racers who, again IMO, probably should not be there based on their perceived and socially decided abilities to fullfill the attendant responsibilities. They are kids . . . treat them as such and let them learn the lesson that there are some things in life you have to wait for.

[Matt King]

They are kids . . . treat them as such and let them learn the lesson that there are some things in life you have to wait for.

Wait for what? A chance to race? They don't have to wait for that, and they have plenty of choices to do it outside of the SCCA. I've raced in a lot of places besides SCCA, and while it is a good organization, it doesn't really offer enough IMO to "wait for" at the exclusion of other options. Other groups will take those racers/customers as they take their first steps out of karting and you will never get them back. Now I do agree with you that it will take much more than simply lowering the age of admission for SCCA to attract its share of that market.

[Steve Demeter]

Quickshoe,

Perhaps to be politically corrct I should have said that my opinion formed from my personal experiences of the things I did as a 15 year old and the many things I have seen and heard of 15 year olds doing in the 40 years since.... instead of I don't care what you tell me

[Charles Warner]

Wait for what? A chance to race? They don't have to wait for that, and they have plenty of choices to do it outside of the SCCA.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to let them race.

Would you let a 14 year old drive the school bus that carries your kids to school - in a snowstorm - at night?

[LolaT440]

My son is still small, just won his first kart championship. If he was ready I would want to put him in a full fendered car at 15 with the SCCA. I am more worried about the other drivers he is on the track with. I would be a little worried on an oval that some knucklehead would put him in the wall. But I think the SCCA drivers are for the most part pretty level headed and would not intentionally try to take him out.

[mmi16]

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to let them race.

Would you let a 14 year old drive the school bus that carries your kids to school - in a snowstorm - at night?

It is very obvious you have not watched any of the 'youth' motorsports programs and the experience that these drivers obtain. The biggest fear us old pharts will have with these 15 yearold's will be trying to keep up with their pace on track. In most if not all cases they will have had had more time on track yearly since they started competing than we will have had during the same competitive year.

Charles I am not so sure I would want you driving the school bus that took my kids to school and I would not want me to drive it either as driving school buses has nothing to do with driving race cars on track.

[Charles Warner]

Charles I am not so sure I would want you driving the school bus that took my kids to school and I would not want me to drive it either as driving school buses has nothing to do with driving race cars on track.

It has everything to do with when one begins to learn about controlling one's aggression, tendencies and thought processes. I've worn the tire marks from the latest and greatest daddy-is-rich new kid on the track. Kids are kids! Plain and simple. They don't vote, they don't legally drink (look what happens to to most of them when they break that rule!), they don't fight our wars. Give them the chance and the opportunity of growing up. Look at the traffic statistics to see how they can control themselves. They are not ion control, regardless of what you want to believe.

And, I'd much rather have you or me driving the school bus, thank you very much.

BTW, a younger driver being faster than this old phart doesn't hurt my ego at all. Can the younger drivers say the same about any other driver being faster than they? I doubt it. Could I when I was young and full of piss and vinegar? Nope. You? I doubt it.

[Daryl DeArman]

Quickshoe,

Perhaps to be politically corrct I should have said that my opinion formed from my personal experiences of the things I did as a 15 year old and the many things I have seen and heard of 15 year olds doing in the 40 years since.... instead of I don't care what you tell me

No big deal. I just found humor in the statement I found ironic. There are 15 year olds, 40 year olds and 65 year olds that I prefer to not share the track with due to their lack of judgement, risk vs. reward, ego, etc. Conversely, there are those in all those age ranges that I am okay with sharing the track with.

Frankly, I am not certain any organization is capable of weeding out the undesireables to everyones satisfaction.


Happy Holidays.

[Charles Warner]

Frankly, I am not certain any organization is capable of weeding out the undesireables .

Bingo!

[butch deer]

I thought the Junior division is SCCA was anyone under 50.
Butch

[Peter Horvath]

I thought the Junior division is SCCA was anyone under 50.
Butch

This is probably the solution we are looking for. Let the "get off my lawn" generation race by themselves.

[Rick Iverson]

This is probably the solution we are looking for. Let the "get off my lawn" generation race by themselves.

Excuse me?

[Matt King]

You know, grumpy old men standing on the front porch shaking their fists at young whippersnappers and yelling "Back in my day..."

[kea]

Back to my reference to NHRA's Junior Dragster..They only race against those in their class, they do not race against adults.
Adults are not allowed in Junior Dragster.
Yes, this would take some doing, to find the time on any given Regional race weekend, but what it did for NHRA, was to keep some of those parents, racing. Because the kids were racing at the same track, on the same weekend, the parents could also bring their vehicle to the track that weekend and race. If you currently race Sports Cars and have a son or daughter racing Karts, those weekends you are at the Kart track you are not SCCA racing.

[Billybob]

Why is this such an issue with so much interest? Are there many 15 year-olds knocking the door down to get in?

[Rick Iverson]

Have you ever wrestled with a pig only to suddenly realize that perhaps the pig likes it!

[stonebridge20]

[farrout]

Maybe it's the 64 year old guys that need there own special class to run in.

I am one of those 60+ year olds. Came into road racing late in life (late 50's). Why - because it was something I was interested in doing all my life. It just took me a while to be able financially and otherwise to do it.

I know that I do not have the resources to be a frontrunner at the Runoffs. I probably do not have the skillset either (but loan me a $100K Stohr DSR and we will see about that). But this is similar to when I used to run 10K and Marathons. I am not the 4 min mile whippet, but I will do my damnedest to beat the guy next to me in the last mile. Same thing in road racing, I will race the cars in class around me.

On track, I do not care what the age of the dude/dudette in the other car is. I do care if they are doing something stupid that will endanger us all. I have seen both experienced racers and novice racers do well and do ugly. It is not age dependent.

I instruct at the SEDIV Double School. There are many who show up for the school with absolutely no prior track experience in a expensive and powerful car. Some have talent, some learn enough over the weekend to be acceptaable, some should never have stepped on the track. Anyone who thinks they are fully ready and experienced for a road race by just coming to a school is sadly mistaken. Even with years of HPDE and TT experience, I learned a lot during my first year and learn something every race. That is the benefit of seat time and watching other racers do something either very good or very stupid (we learn from both situations).

Bottom line - Every racer among us earned his/her spurs. We either earn the respect of our peers on track or hopefully our peers educate us on our shortcomings. Cut someone off and you owe it to them to show up at their trailer and apologize. This is a sport where the failures can injure or kill you and others. As racers, we owe it to ourselves and others to be smart, courteous and careful.

[lawyerbob]

a while back I raced stockcars at a saturday night bull ring in Tennessee. In our division were two "young guns" (at the time one was 14 I think and the other was 16). One had a really famous dad, the other just a rich dad.

Both were overly agressive and didn't have to worry about tearing up the equipment becasue "daddy could cover it" - but daddy wouldn't cover MY stuff when junior tore it up for me. As the years have gone by neither proved to be capable of living up to their wallets, but both left some pretty good carnage in their wake.

I don't mind racing with those younger than me (hell, most are younger than me at this point) but I'm a 50 year old with a VERY limited budget. I race FV beasue I can afford to, and I can afford to fix my errors. I also know that the other drivers in that class also are shoestring drivers (for the most part) and most of us are not out to work our way up at all costs.

Maybe the minors with daddy's credit card should have some sort of damage deposit put up for when they take out some of us old farts? I don't mind racing to them or even losing to them, but I'll be damned if I want to pay for thier education.

PS - as an aside - when I was 15/16 I had moto-cross bikes. I was really fast, except for those times when I was in the hospital.

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe the minors with daddy's credit card should have some sort of damage deposit put up for when they take out some of us old farts? I don't mind racing to them or even losing to them, but I'll be damned if I want to pay for thier education.

...perhaps that should apply to just about anybody who apparently has enough money that their mistakes don't have enough impact to modify their behaviour.

[stonebridge20]

If a 15 year old's parents sign a waiver to let them race with "adults" and the kid takes me out, can I spank the kid or is that considered child abuse?

[SMac35]

I think SCCA needs to invite younger racecar drivers to the club. Because there is no money payout, judgement will prevail, and I think being young, they will feel the pressure of the older drivers watching them, and be less likely to make a stupid mistake, I know I was my 1st couple races. SCCA needs this so we can raise our count of young people, which always seems to be the #1 concern for most members of the club.

At my drivers school there were 3 "kids" from 16 to 20. Myself, and Patrick Gallagher, RunOffs polesitter, were the 16 year olds (Patrick had a lot of Karting experience, myself only about 10 kart races) and another SRF guy. I just got my street license a week before Drivers School. I was able to battle with the SRF racer, and a couple more SRF's in the FV without a problem, on the 1st session. we were side by side, and passing each othe with no problem. I then hopped into an ITA car, after a blown engine, and was able to turn top 3 lap times in a field of 16 or so. At MARRS races, there was a couple 24 year old guys (one of them Daniel Oseth), me, and a 17 year old ITA driver. None of us caused an accident, or did anything stupid.
Im not trying to brag, I'm trying to state that from what I've seen, us young drivers are SAFE, and responsible!
Myself and the ITA driver have paid for most of our way, and I believe that paying for what damage may occur, had made us more concious of what we do, at least for myself, if I feel myself getting too agressive, I back off and follow the car ahead without making a move for a couple of laps. b/c I do not want to crash a friend, and have to pay for my mistake.

I beleive as long as young people are watched closesly, no stupid moves will be made.

Steven McWilliams
now 17 and can watch Rated R movies

[butch deer]

Young or old money payout has no effect on the way most drivers approach racing. Copetitive drivers who have gone on to successful Pro careers have repeatedly stated they drove just as hard when they started in club racing or low level(little or no money events) as they did for Millions later in there careers. The only difference is there skill got better as they got older and more expierienced.
Butch

[Charles Warner]

At my drivers school there were 3 "kids" from 16 to 20. Myself, and Patrick Gallagher, RunOffs polesitter, were the 16 year olds (Patrick had a lot of Karting experience, myself only about 10 kart races) and another SRF guy. I just got my street license a week before Drivers School. I was able to battle with the SRF racer, and a couple more SRF's in the FV without a problem, on the 1st session. we were side by side, and passing each othe with no problem. I then hopped into an ITA car, after a blown engine, and was able to turn top 3 lap times in a field of 16 or so. At MARRS races, there was a couple 24 year old guys (one of them Daniel Oseth), me, and a 17 year old ITA driver. None of us caused an accident, or did anything stupid.
Im not trying to brag,

Steven,

You are showing the exuberance of youth. Consider what you brought away from your drivers' school. How well you did . . . how fast you were . . . . how well you fought with others . . . . about your "battles" . . . .your lap times . . . side by side, etc. These are not the things to take away. Truth be known, compared to the basic racers in your class at a Regional race you would have been relatively slow. That is not meant to be derogatory - it applies to everyone at a school and to all of us who enjoy this sport. To take away the attitude that you are anywhere near an accomplished racer from a drivers' school simply demonstrates a lack of understanding of the path to being a good, safe racer. One thing that is not taught at these schools is hubris, understanding and patience.

[jim morgan]

Did karts hated it. Did Skippy at 15. Scca Driver school,4 regionals, nationals at 16, some pro, lot's of SCCA. 15/16 is ok for a GIFTED driver lots of damage for the rest.
BTW my plan was only regional for 16/17 ,ability changed that. The problem is not the kid that can move up but the father that can not back down.

Cole has done me proud!
OBTW lots of damage along the way most in 16/17

[SMac35]

Steven,

You are showing the exuberance of youth. Consider what you brought away from your drivers' school. How well you did . . . how fast you were . . . . how well you fought with others . . . . about your "battles" . . . .your lap times . . . side by side, etc. These are not the things to take away. Truth be known, compared to the basic racers in your class at a Regional race you would have been relatively slow. That is not meant to be derogatory - it applies to everyone at a school and to all of us who enjoy this sport. To take away the attitude that you are anywhere near an accomplished racer from a drivers' school simply demonstrates a lack of understanding of the path to being a good, safe racer. One thing that is not taught at these schools is hubris, understanding and patience.

I did not say I was fast at regionals, or accomlished. I am a mid to front pack person, hovering around 7-10 out of 17 of us. I was saying, by being able to stop my aggressiveness, and pace myself, I have learned Patience, and understanding. (something you don't learn in karts). I've been around the paddock long enough (all my life) that I have learned these things from crewing, and talking with other drivers. The other rookies and I broke into the 29's our first year at Summit Point, which took many drivers 3+ years. And we are able to go side by side with each other almost everywhere after driving with each other for a while, and trusting each other.

Steven

[Steve Demeter]

...perhaps that should apply to just about anybody who apparently has enough money that their mistakes don't have enough impact to modify their behaviour.

Amen to that

[Matt Clark]

oops

[TrackBrat]

I will have to find the link but I guess there will be a 15 year old in Atlantics next year. In my honest opinion, a Formula Ford or something slower is more acceptable to me then a 15 year old who can't even hold a license in a pro series much less atlantics.

I hope none of the kids expect to get any slack cause they are so young. You want to be in something as serious and Dangerfield you have to mature and responsible, and along with that comes other things too. Now get back in school you kids!