Lower driver's age?

[FVRacer21]

I am waiting for the exact wording in Fastrack, but if the age limit goes to 15 then I just might park the car.

I don't mind running against them in karts, but I don't like racing against kids who might not be legally responsible for their actions.

This got kicked around before - comments?

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

No comment but a couple of questions:

Why are you okay with racing against them in karts where they may not be legally responsible for their actions?

Do you think everybody that you race against is finacially capable of being responsible for their actions?

[Matt King]

So just on the principle of it you will quit, or only if a 15 year old actually shows up in a race against you?

[FVRacer21]

No comment but a couple of questions:

Why are you okay with racing against them in karts where they may not be legally responsible for their actions?

Do you think everybody that you race against is finacially capable of being responsible for their actions?

By Karts, I mean indoor rentals - sorry, not open karting. Here where someone else is handling the insurance liablilty.

And, BTW, I got beat today in a 5K road Race by a 10 year old!

But what happens if a rod end breaks on my car in the uphill at Lime Rock and a 15 year old is collected and hurt? Right now we take on our own responsibility. That 10 year old had to have a parent sign so he could run, I assume a parent will have to sign for a 15 year old to race?

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

So just on the principle of it you will quit, or only if a 15 year old actually shows up in a race against you?

Good question. Would I show up and if no one under 18 was entered would I race, but is someone under was entered would I pack up and go home......

BTW, when I started you had to be 21.

I am wondering where 15 came from. I could see an argument for a proper street license, but if you have kids you know there is pressure to raise it to 17 or higher!

of course you have:
"Competing in the Skip Barber Formula Dodge Race Series on January 17, 2004, John became the youngest winner in open wheel road racing history, at just 12 years of age. In 2004 he also won the Red Bull Driver Search, a search for the next American Formula One World Champion." http://www.johnedwardsracing.com/bio.html

Before we could just speculate - but now it looks like it is here.

ChrisZ

PS, in the 5K race there was also a 12 year old running 6 minute miles - but looking at him no way could I see him in a car. I don't know John Edwards but he must have been very mature for his age.

[rickb99]

Hmmm, just made this post in another thread about 'young drivers'.

Actually this whole 16 year old bit (INCLUDING the recent SCCA decision on 15/16 yr olds) is filled with risk.

At least here in Washington State (and probably others) it WON'T happen. People under the age of consent to sign a contract (18 here), nor their parents can sign away their rights with a track/club Liability Waiver. Therefore, if a driver is under 18, regardless of who signs the waiver, the club, track is still liable for losses or serous injuries sustained.

This decision has already been adjudicated in the courts. Although the signed waivers are still used for some activities for kids, they will not hold up if it gets in to court.

Yes, we have kids racing Karts and midgets. But it's a SUPER high risk situation that car clubs have not been willing to take on here.

[RussMcB]

There is a 15 YO racing in the FB Championship race at the ARRC this weekend.

http://delaomotorsports.com/index.php?page=1

[Daryl DeArman]

BTW, when I started you had to be 21.

Yeah, but did your WIFE have to sign your first release at a racing school because you weren't yet 21????

Made it easier in the thin years when I could blame her for enabling my first fix.

[iamuwere]

Is it fair to go only one way with age?

There are a few older drivers out there running a minute a lap off the pace that have put me into a tire wall as they come across the track at half speed when I go to pass as well...

[stonebridge20]

From what was explained to me by a BOD member.

The 15 year old age drop is a test with 14 years old being a target for 2011.

There will be no SCCA school requirement for 15 year olds with prior racing experience.

The 15 year olds will be "monitored closely" by SCCA throughout their first year.





.

[glenn cooper]

Was the 10 yr old a female?
Might just be time to hang up the ol' helmet...

J/K, had to do it!

Ya know I've seen 40 yr olds that didn't have a lick of common sense.
I've seen 12 yr olds that were incredibly bright, well mannered, smart.

Does this activity we are so keen on require incredible strength, like say competing in a Triathalon? No.
Does it require superior brain usage? Yes, and that as far as I can tell is the real question.
How do you test for that? I'm not quite sure...

I know how Star Mazda went after '03. Lots of young kids, lots of yellow flags. In that deal there is a ton of money up for grabs, here in SCCA not so much.
Will the young'uns (or rather young guns!) behave themselves, and not go for the crash or win mentality?
Who knows. Does a year or so make a difference? Who knows. Am I being much help in trying to get this all worked out?

Obviously there has to be a minimum age, unfortunately that age is measured in physical years, and not in mental ability.

GC

[formulasuper]

From what was explained to me by a BOD member.

The 15 year old age drop is a test with 14 years old being a target for 2011.

There will be no SCCA school requirement for 15 year olds with prior racing experience.

The 15 year olds will be "monitored closely" by SCCA throughout their first year.





.

"There will be no SCCA school requirement for 15 year olds with prior racing experience."

What the XXXX???!!!

[KevinFirlein]

I have also been told that the goal is 14 by 2011. Also that there will be class limits imposed, ie. no FA,GT1 or the such.

Have no problem racing against the yonger drivers at all. There are plenty of 35-50 year old who have no business behind the wheel of a racing car but no one looks twice at them.

My only issue is one that SCCA cant't control and thats the parents. Its why after leaving karting I never went back even for the fun. A 14 / 17 year old carves me up on the track and he is getting a visit just the same way any driver would. It wont go over well if the parent tries getting involved. racing is a mature sport, if they are mature enough to handle the car ( and some will be very fast indeed) they are mature enough to handle the consequences of their action without parent getting involved.

Quiting seems like a classic internet over reaction to what will be a small volume of drivers

[Rick Iverson]

Back in RVN, we used to call this 'Bad Karma'.

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

I have also been told that the goal is 14 by 2011. Also that there will be class limits imposed, ie. no FA,GT1 or the such.

Kevin, Sorry I left that part out. The class restriction was dropped from what I was told. Any class is fair game if Mom and Dad want to pony up the cash!

[Dave Gomberg]

O.K., its time to stop the speculation and rumors. This is what was approved by the BoD as translated into GCR-ese. (I cannot speak to whether there will be any movement toward even younger drivers in the future because I have no information about that one way or the other.)

Dave

2.6 15 Year-Old Permits

A 15 Year-Old Permit is a provisional license for young drivers with previous racing experience in karts, quarter-midgets, etc.

A. Applicants with prior racing experience in karts, quarter-midgets, etc., will be considered for a 15 Year-Old Permit. Applicants must submit a resume of their prior racing experience that will be evaluated by their Divisional Driver Licensing Administrator. If the Divisional Driver Licensing Administrator is satisfied with the applicant’s experience, he will schedule an interview with the applicant to complete the evaluation. It is preferred that the interview be in person, but if necessary, a telephone interview is acceptable.

B. A 15 Year-Old permit will be issued in the form of a special logbook with a distinctive cover. It must be used for all driver school and race events until the driver reaches the age of 16.

C. 15 Year-Old Permit logbooks may be issued only by the Club Racing Office.

D. The Permit will be issued only with the concurrence of the applicant’s parents/guardians.

E. At every driver school and every race, the permit logbook must be presented to the Chief Steward before participating in any on-track session. The Chief Steward will complete the appropriate logbook page at the end of the event.

F. At any event (school or race), the Chief Steward may recommend revocation of the logbook to the Club Office.

G. In addition to the successful completion of the required driver school(s), the Chief Steward must explicitly state that the driver is prepared to race; otherwise, additional school(s) are required.

H. A 15 year-old must complete his first driver school in a car from one of the following classes: FV, FST, FF, SRF, SM, HP, T3, SSB, SSC, ITA, ITB or ITC. Upon successful completion of the first school, any car my be used thereafter.

I. No 15 year-old will be allowed to race without having successfully completed at least one SCCA driver school. In Divisions in which SCCA driver schools are not available, the student may be allowed to race after completing two SCCA Accredited Schools subject to the approval of the Divisional Driver Licensing Administrator.

J. The 15 Year-Old Permit is treated as a Novice Permit for the purposes of license upgrades, however the logbook will be used as the license regardless of the events (Regional or National) for which the driver is eligible.

[M.Sauce]

Mike- When I voted for the 15 year olds to be allowed in Club racing there was no caveat that if it works 14 year olds are the target.That sounds like someone's personal agenda. Mike Sauce

[sauce_racer]

I'm 19 and I started SCCA racing when I was 16. I had been racing go-karts competitively since I was 10. No amount of racing experience when you are under the age of 16 will help you jump into a formula car or a door car. At 14 I was no where near ready to step foot in a high speed racecar. I raced my 100cc yamaha to the limit but that didn't mean I was ready for SCCA. What's next? 4 year old kickin ass in quarter midgets wanting to race a GT1 car? The parents being responsible for the child's rights is asking for trouble! What if a 15 year old goes out and has a serious accident and hurts an older experience driver? He could sue the child's parents for that kids actions. Does anyone else think this is a bad idea? Being a young racer in SCCA I wouldn't feel comfortable with a 15 year out on the track with me and my fellow racers.

Megan

[James Hill]

in 2007 i prepared the car for Esteban Gtz. he was 15 then. Next month he has a test with a F1 team.

[Steve Demeter]

Interesting.

We can have kids who are 15 competing wheel to wheel in any class we run.

So if one of them chops someone and takes a corner off the victim, what happens?

Most if not all 15 year olds are simply not mature and responsible enough to race wheel to wheel.

I say not responsible enough because I think that none of them ever had to work and slave over a car to fix it after a wreck nor earn the money to buy it in the ofirst place and pay for the running.

Also how is this for irony: to compete in Solo and Rallycross a valid state driver's license is mandatory.

This sounds like the BOD quietly trying to slide the CRB proposal of a couple of years ago on the sly.

did anyone ever see it put up for member input this time?

[Peter Olivola]

The adopted proposal appeared in Fastack last spring. Below is my letter to the CRB/BOD:



When the proposal to drop the minimum age for competition licenses was being discussed two years ago I wrote to the BOD and CRB based on my experience as both a Club Racing Steward and the former Chief Steward of the Cooper Tires FF 2000 Series. I have revised those comments based on the current idea under consideration as described in the April Fastrack.

It seems to me the most critical question that needs to be answered on this subject is how the club will vet young driver's prior experience. That decision will drive every other aspect of this issue. It isn't often that process drives policy, but I believe this is one of those instances. Is the Club prepared to require proof of significant, objectively verifiable prior experience, or, are we going to allow this to be another "old school tie" situation? Obviously, there is much room between those two points, but where we come down on that line between them makes the decisions afterwords almost automatic.

If we elect to make prior experience the benchmark for consideration and acceptance, then issues like limiting the classes they can participate in based on horsepower and requiring additional observation, fade to the point of being meaningless. We will be requiring a higher standard of capability to start out than we currently do for an older driver in their first National race. My experience in the Cooper Series indicates that they won't behave any differently on track than any other age group of drivers. They won't be involved in more or fewer incidents. The incidents won't be any more or less severe. Their mistakes will be the same and of the same frequency as any other driver.

The most significant difference between very young and older drivers is the amount of time required to deal with them after they have been involved in an incident. In a race car, they are no different than anyone else. Out of the car, they are still very much teenagers with all that's included in that condition of life, and require much more time and care.

Parental over involvement - Little League Father Syndrome - will always be hovering just below the surface. In a pro series we had to balance the need to keep the family paying the bills against the need to keep parents out of the operation and discipline proceedings. Club racing has a huge advantage in this regard. We already have sufficient authority within the GCR to deal with parents as entrants, crew or guests.

Only to the extent that we compromise on the requirements for admission to the program, will we need to consider additional measures.

[Paddy O'Brien]

What a stupid idea. Has any of the SCCA BOD actually raced with sub-16 year old drivers ? I have and I will NOT do it again. The main problem is the parents not the "poor" kids. I raced in the Kenyon midget series that allowed 14 year old drivers and the kids tried impossible passes because dad (who usually had little racing experience) told the kid they had to win "or else" Does anyone remember the posts from ANGUS DAD who talked about how fast his 13 year old was and then described all of the kids broken bones as proof of the kids desire, sorry but at that age the kid just wants to please dad, I'm guessing that ten years from now Angus will not be too happy with dad's logic. ALL of the kids are fast but they will not stay with the SCCA for more than a year or so because dad wants them to be famous(NASCAR OR F1) and the math just does not work. Quarter midgets have a 45 mph top speed and in karts you must be 16 or in some case 18 to drive a shifter that rarely gets over 90 mph. Yet someone in SCCA thinks that a 15 year old can go wheel to wheel with me into the kink at Road America in a formula Atlantic AT 140 MPH? I would love to see the actual names of the "experts" on the BOD who think this is a good idea, I would like to have a talk with them. So Peter Olivola, have you actually been to a kart race reciently and watched the last lap of the junior kart races?

[Rick Iverson]

What a stupid idea. Has any of the SCCA BOD actually raced with sub-16 year old drivers?

Bingo!

[Larry]

I've got to admit that I have serious concerns about this--but I don't agree that it's not possible for a 15-year old to be an effective, good competitor. Therefore, we should give them a chance until they prove otherwise.

I am in complete agreement with the fact that most of the problems will arise with the parents. I've alread had experience with an 18-year old driver and his father. The kid was FAST. Unfortunately, he thought he was in NASCAR and seemed to think nothing of hitting other cars. After putting him on probation, his father came to us (stewads of the meet) and started yelling and carrying on. We then, at the same event, had another action against the kid, so we hit him again in hopes of providing the education that his parent failed to provide.

I've never seen him at one of our races since then. I have no idea how he's doing, but I do know that his father is a world-class anal orifice.

Larry Oliver

[Matt King]

I've raced with and been punted by a 15 year old driver. After the incident I went over to his pit to find out why he used me as a rolling deceleration device. I just got a blank stare from him and his parents, who clearly couldn't comprehend why I wasn't simply telling him he was so awesome because he was so young and driving a race car fast. I just walked away.

[Charles Warner]

I've got to admit that I have serious concerns about this--but I don't agree that it's not possible for a 15-year old to be an effective, good competitor. Therefore, we should give them a chance until they prove otherwise.

Larry,

I have to disagree here. Using the same logic, it is possible a 15 year old has the physical skills to fly an airliner. Should we, therefore, give him the chance to be an airlilne pilot? Maybe until he screws up? With what possible results?

While it is impossible to cover all situations and individuals, a reasonable entry level must be chosen. It should be based on assumed levels of judgement and appropriate behavior. Yes, there are racers of all ages who display really poor judgement. They are the anomalies. In the case of extremely young racers I fear the anomalies would be the ones with appropriate judgement.

I see this as an effort to increase entry levels and fight back against the other sanctioning bodies who some think are taking our potential members. These kids are not interested in SCCA (as has been pointed out before.) Dropping the age, IMO, is folly.

[Jim Gustafson]

Bad idea. Very bad idea.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[Larry]

While you can't fly an airliner at 16, you can fly a civil aircraft, including multi-engine piston aircraft with a gross takeoff weight of up to 12,499 pounds. The FAA has a rigorous program of training and evaluations to ensure safety. The requirements to act as pilot-in-command of an airliner are much higher, because (1) you are performing for compensation, (2) your employer holds forth as a provider of public carriage, and (3) the typical complexity of a large aircraft requires more training and experience than a 16-year old could acquire. The ATP license requires a minimum of 1,200 flight hours. (Copilots can have substantially less hours and do not require the same license.)

I know that it's necessary to draw the line somewhere, and it's clearly an arbitrary assumption by the SCCA that 15 is acceptable. I see the stewards having the same comparable responsibility in the SCCA, closely monitoring the performance of any 15-year old drivers--just as they do with anyone running on a novice permit--and intervening immediately if it shows any appearance of necessity.

To continue your flying analogy, up until two years ago, the FAA mandated that airline pilots could not be over 60. It has recently been raised to 65 because there was no evidence that showed any difference in safety betwen 60 and 65 year old pilots. There is no upper age limit for non-airline flying. Not that this is relevant to racing, but the assumption should be that safety will be maintained through a system of surveillance--including increased surveillance of new racers, especially the youngest ones.

I'm not an advocate for 15-year old racers, and I can't understand how the SCCA would let anyone race that doesn't have a legal driver's license--but the SCCA made the decision. Now my job--and that of the other stewards--is to incorporate these drivers in as safe a manner as possible. It can be done, and I'm hoping that we find some good, talented and responsible drivers joining our club.

Larry Oliver

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd feel more comfortable going wheel to wheel in a FA with a 15 year old kid who has a bunch of recent racing experience, likely has shared many corners in open wheel cars, probably has good reflexes and eyesight.

Rather than share a corner with a 60+ year old business professional who may have raced 30 races in the last 10 years, hasn't likely shared a corner with anybody in a long time, reflexes and eyesight aren't what they used to be. Was able to fog a mirror to pass his last SCCA physical. His successful career may even lead to a sense of entitlement with a dash of ego on top.

My concern with the young kids is their risk vs. reward calculator might be a tad off due to a "I'm immortal" outlook.

My concern with the older drivers is their lack of recent experience and awareness.

In conclussion I am only willing to race with males age 40-42, with families to support and therefore a job to go to on Monday morning. They must also work on their own cars with tools and parts purchased with their own money.

Give me a break, there are good 15 year old drivers and there are good 80 year old drivers. They are both EXCEPTIONS to the rules and neither of them should be excluded from participating based on their age alone. Tools are in place to deal with problem drivers whether they are 15, 40 or 75.

[Charles Warner]

While you can't fly an airliner at 16, you can fly a civil aircraft, including multi-engine piston aircraft with a gross takeoff weight of up to 12,499 pounds.

I am well aware of that. I soloed the youngest girl to solo in South Carolina many moons ago on her birthday and then she got her private pilot's license on her birthday a year later.

The ATP license requires a minimum of 1,200 flight hours.

More importantly, the ATP license requirements include:

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must--
(a) Be at least 23 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.
(c) Be of good moral character;

Note that last one!

Copilots can have substantially less hours and do not require the same license.

That depends on the carrier and aircraft type.

I know that it's necessary to draw the line somewhere, and it's clearly an arbitrary assumption by the SCCA that 15 is acceptable. I see the stewards having the same comparable responsibility in the SCCA, closely monitoring the performance of any 15-year old drivers--just as they do with anyone running on a novice permit--and intervening immediately if it shows any appearance of necessity.

I refer you to the same responsibilities regarding waiving of a student's second school so he/she can make the regional race the next day. I have seen some ridiculous waivers granted and I have stood up as the Chief Instructor and said 'No" to the frustration of the student and his instructor ("Don't worry, I know the Chief and he'll approve it.") I found most of the students arriving at the school for their first time assumed they would get a waiver. After all, everyone does.

To continue your flying analogy, up until two years ago, the FAA mandated that airline pilots could not be over 60. It has recently been raised to 65 because there was no evidence that showed any difference in safety betwen 60 and 65 year old pilots.

I am quite aware of that rule change (December 13, 2007) as it allowed me another 5 years of work should I so desire. I would point out that we are dealing with an age extension in this case, wherein the individual is already highly qualified, having proven this over many years and countless hours of experience. I see this as fundamentally different than granting licenses based on an earlier age and no valid or prolonged demonstration of appropriate behavior.

I'm not an advocate for 15-year old racers, and I can't understand how the SCCA would let anyone race that doesn't have a legal driver's license

I agree

--but the SCCA made the decision. Now my job--and that of the other stewards--is to incorporate these drivers in as safe a manner as possible.

I disagree. Your job is not to incorporate them . . . . that implies they will be incorporated. Your job is to evaluate them based on a very limited amount of demonstrated ability, with no idea of how mature the individual is, and make a decision whether they will be able to start their racing career in a safe manner, taking into consideration the possible effects they will have on the racers with whom they occupy the track. Be ready for the irate father who has spent tons o' loot on his "next Ayrton Senna wanna-be" and will be all over you guys when someone has the bollocks to stand up and say "I don't think he's ready so he can not receive his fancy colored logbook." No pressure there.

[Jim Gustafson]

I soloed on my 16th birthday way back in 1963. No way was I mature enough to engage in all out balls to the wall, pedal to the metal competition on a full length road course in a real race car.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[RussMcB]

When I think of the MANY poor judgements I made (and my buddies made) around 14-18 years old, it's amazing we survived. Some of the things we drove did not.

The only way this could be successful is if there is a very good way to determine if a 14-15 year old is going to be a smart racer. I'm very interested to know how SCCA plans to do that. I hope it's not a purely subjective thing.

[Brett Lane]

I like this one-as Rick from Seattle stated, it is a liability issue. There is a landmark case in Florida where a kid got killed on an ATV on a motocross track. I think it was on this website where it was brought up that these hold harmless agreements are no longer worth the paper they´re written on. Go ahead dad, but if your kid gets hurt, the track can still be liable, as is other competitors. I wonder how anything inherently dangerous is directed when people that are not of legal age, and are not responsible for their own actions are participating.



Brett

[stonebridge20]

I wonder if track and or state laws that prohibit people under the state legal driving age to race will make the SCCA rule change a moot point?

[TimW]

I wonder if track and or state laws that prohibit people under the state legal driving age to race will make the SCCA rule change a moot point?

Doesn't Mid Ohio have such a rule? Though I bet its due to the track insurer rather than any state regulatory agency.

Tim

[Franklin Futrelle]

i raced in scca in a srf at 16 at lowes and at daytona at 16

[Matt King]

In conclussion I am only willing to race with males age 40-42, with families to support and therefore a job to go to on Monday morning. They must also work on their own cars with tools and parts purchased with their own money.

That makes two of us, and that's all we need to get a race going.

[Matt King]

Doesn't Mid Ohio have such a rule? Though I bet its due to the track insurer rather than any state regulatory agency.

Tim

I know they require a separate waiver for racers under age 18, regardless of the sanctioning body rules, but kids under 18 can still race there. I'm not sure what the minimum age is, but I know a kid of who raced there at 17 and needed his parents to sign a separate waiver.

[sracing]

In most forms of round track racing 14-16 is the age limit. Not saying its a good idea or not, but they need entries. And some new blood may enhance the SCCA image for an entry level type of racing.

Yes. most "hold harmless" paper is simply that, paper. However, in racing the courts have mostly stayed out of racing incidents. (thank god)

Yes, it will be a moot point in some states and on some tracks. Watkins Glen for example. You must be 18 to race there.

As far as racing with them, I am not sure it will be any different than with some 50 year olds I have raced against.

[rickb99]

..... As far as racing with them, I am not sure it will be any different than with some 50 year olds I have raced against.

LOL, you guys are being a bit TOUGH on the older folks here. Pete Lovely is over 80 still races and is still fast! We have plenty of guys in the Northwest in their 60's who can do quick ones and win championships.

When is your 50th birthday coming? I suspect you won't be ready to give it up to the younger crowd. And you will have the wisdom that comes with age.