Proposal for a control tire for FF

[Tom Valet]

If you are in favor of a request being made to the CRB that it consider adopting a tire rule for FF starting in 2011 and if you would like your name to be included on the request to the CRB, please send me an e-mail at:

tvalet@rheingoldlaw.com

Please dont send me a PM on Apex. Please send an e-mail.

This initial request which you would be signing on for will not commit to anything, not even that a tire rule be adopted. It will not propose any specific tire. It will simply request that the CRB start the process for evaluating whether a tire rule is in the best interest of the class and desired by the membership.

Please include your name, whether you are an SCCA member, whether you are a current FF driver or a current FF owner/entrant or whether you are considering entering the FF class.

The reason to be included on the initial request is to demonstrate that there an interest among the membership and that this is not the request of a single person.

Thanks

Tom

[mblanc]

Let's be real, GY R430's and Hoosier R45 are not hard enough.
..............................
If we end up with a spec tire of a GY R430 or Hoosier R45a...................., absolutely nothing will have been accomplished. Budgets in the aggregate will be the same or higher.

I will support ONLY: a HARD DURABLE COMPOUND, REAL slick, race tire,
(I will NOT support a mid compound tire, nor a street tire)

Fail to go to sufficiently hard enough compound, and you make the problem only worse, in that case you not only buy tires often, but now have no choice of what to buy.


The entire 80-90 car field of FF40th CFF made it through the kink on R60's, so don't worry about that. (the FC guys are missing all the fun, take off the wings, and put the hard tires on for more pucker factor ;-)


Tom I don't think you should be trying to spec or control the price either,
the savings will come from having the right tire, and using less of them,
initial per set costs being lowered is a really small nut compared to the year long potential savings. Dangerous territory to tread into, trying to 'name the price'

and then keep it simple and just make it a H R60 / GY 600 / AR133 option.

The research and field trials have been done and proven in decades plus of that rule in cendiv and other areas of regional CFF spec tire rules. Tire rules work, and are the norm in other places and series.

Lets just propose that, and get started.
It's worked for 5+ years of EWC, a couple decades of cendiv CFF, it'll work for FF.


And for you king 'o cheap types, when the guy w/ too much money takes of his 3-5 cycle tires and gives them to you, you've got a set for the YEAR, not a race or two, so you'll save even MORE $ by using those takeoffs that are 12% used, instead of your R35's that are 60% used up.



And one more thought,................

The real savings in tires, is having a consistent enough tire to run the high cycle counts on, on test days, practice sessions, etc. Having a consistent tire you can still tune the car on, w/ a real high cycle count is where the savings for front runners comes also, then bolt on your low cycle count set for Qual and race, and it's relevant, UNLIKE soft tires, you can tune on those high cycle counts, and make it relevant.

data: I did the wednesday test day for the FF40th w/ the crossle on a take off set that was run for a season on another car(2007 I think), then I stored them for 2008, and ran them at BFR in April 09, and the FF40th testday, the first stickers the car saw was Q1, and the same set that led into T5 on lap one.


and I'll be done after this one,........................


(IMHO, it's not true, but)
EVEN IF, the hard compound is a few tenths slower at 6+ cycles, that's still a huge improvement of competitiveness for the mid packers, that previously couldn't afford new rubber. Put everybody on the same hard compound slick, the field will be closer, encouraging more entries and racing on less $ in the mid and back pack.

[Daryl DeArman]

Tom I don't think you should be trying to spec or control the price either,
the savings will come from having the right tire, and using less of them,
initial per set costs being lowered is a really small nut compared to the year long potential savings. Dangerous territory to tread into, trying to 'name the price'

It is not a small nut if the tire is 2/3 the price of the commonly used tire now. If suddenly the demand is incredibly high (everybody must use it) the price could very soon become the same price as the other tires.

IKF Region 7 early 90's Bridgestone YBN compound spec'd for a couple of classes. Tire price immediately went up 25%.

Better to be proactive than reactive.

[Bill Steele]

..when the guy w/ too much money takes of his 3-5 cycle tires and gives them to you... you'll save even MORE $ by using those takeoffs that are 12% used, instead of your R35's that are 60% used up.

I was that guy for a while in CF in our region. Coming from FF where I ran R160/R430 GY's, I subscribed to the notion that a tires best laps were their 3rd or 4th lap and everything was downhill from there. I would buy new AR 133's about every 4th or 5th heat cycle. In the SF Region we have some pretty fast guys.

Once I got my car working better in the class, I looked around and saw the class of the local field buying an occasional takeoff to get him through a weekend while he wore the rest of his tires in that set to the cords!

I finally decided to start learning how to "manage" my AR tires and learned you could easily get double digit heat cycle counts and not lose any substantial lap times. In fact, at the last race at Thunderhill this season, I set a personal fast lap in practice on double digit heat cycle tires and when I switched to my "just scrubbed" set for the season finale in qualifying and the race never got back down to those practice times.

Once guys learn how to use the hard slicks, there will be far fewer "excellent" takeoff's floating around. Bad news for the freeloading types, but great news for those that write their own checks.

I disagree on your one point about the inital price not being important. There will always be guys that take their hard compound tires off prematurely, "flat earth folks". these people also get a price cut if we insist on a low priced tire. Win/win for everybody.

Finally, specing a single tire is a much better idea than multiple brands. Having one brand gives the club much more leverage with that supplier and all but eliminates compound creep, where one supplier starts making their tires a little softer to become the favored tire. In this instance, we are right back where we started at $900/set and a new set every race in no time at all.

BTW, guess who got some of my prime takeoff's before I learned my lesson? The guy that beat me that weekend! That was a motivator to figure things out.

[Tom Duncan]

Mark,

I agree with what you say...

"The real savings in tires, is having a consistent enough tire to run the high cycle counts on, on test days, practice sessions, etc. Having a consistent tire you can still tune the car on, w/ a real high cycle count is where the savings for front runners comes also, then bolt on your low cycle count set for Qual and race, and it's relevant, UNLIKE soft tires, you can tune on those high cycle counts, and make it relevant."

As the softer tire degrades it changes the handling, making it tough to learn anything about the car. Good point.

Bill,

While the AR's current price point (about $500 a set) is very attractive (vs $700/Hoosier and $800+ for Goodyears, though in fairness that is a Goodyear 430 as they don't make a 600) I think the AR price would climb once they made the necessary changes to their support and quality control (plus making a rain tire).

I agree it is mandatory to have just one tire be the spec tire in the long run. If there is more than one manufacturer there will be performance creep.

Tom,

How are the signups for the CRB request going?

Tom Duncan