Pro FA vs Club FA @ Road America

[JByers]

I am trying to determine why there is a substantial difference in lap records at Road America between the Pro and Club FA cars. In 2005 Tonis recorded a new Pro lap record at a 2:01.7 in a Swift 014a. In 2007 Keith Grant recorded a new Club lap record during the June Sprints at a 2:03.1 and Tonis's best lap for the 07 June Sprints event was a 2:03.3, Both drivers were in a Swift 014a. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the Club motor make about 20 more HP than the 2005 Pro Spec motor?


What are the main reasons the club 014a is still slower than the pro spec car 014a of 2005?

• Level of Preperation and team knowledge of the 014a
• Level of competition that would take the same driver to a different level
• Tires (pro vs club)
• Grip levels during a Cart weekend

Inquiring minds want to know

[bill gillespie]

I think all of your reasons are part of the puzzle......but it is a common occurence at many other tracks. ie: The last year young Rahal ran the Pro Mazda race at Road Atlanta, he was well under the FA track record.

Stan convinced me that the Mazda was NOT a faster car, rather it came down to a complete PRO level effort vs. a high level club effort.

Having said that, the DP02 cars were 1-2 seconds slower at Petit Lemans this year, as compared to last year with the same Pro level effort...........certain tracks appear to get faster/ slower from year to year regardless of who is laying down the rubber.

Just my random thoughts,
Bill

[Paul LeCain]

A Pro weekend is a wholly different animal from a Club National.
The Pro FAs are not out there with other slower (sometimes unimaginably slower) cars and drivers.
There's a lot more practice time at a Pro weekend.
Drivers 'learn' from other, faster drivers.
That's why, when there was more crossover between the two series, National drivers went a lot faster when they entered Pro races, even on tracks where they had run Nationals for years.

[stonebridge20]

Jason, I always went faster for the Toyota Atlantic money than I did for the SCCA $8 trophy!

[TrackBrat]

There is also one big difference that you guys missed.....Traffic. In SCCA FA's are put with other classes that can slow down a lap and having to deal with passing them. Pro FA's do not have to deal with this, and have substantially lower race group numbers.

[John B]

I cant find it anymore, but I know that somebody qualified an 014 in the 1:59's at Road America in the Pro Atlantic series. They never broke 2:00 in a race though.

[Jim Gustafson]

In addition to the valid points made, you can't inderestimate the benefit of increased track time available on a Pro weekend. You actually have time to stop in the pits to make changes to the car, to try different things, and fine tune the car to the track conditions for that particular day. Try doing that in a 25 minute session, made even more difficult if there are incidents that cut into that. Also, most club racers, are out of the car for two, three or four weeks between races.

Jim Gustafson

[xfrgs]

Major reasons:

Pro – Driver
Pro – Team
Know – How
Aerodynamics
Moments of Inertia
Rolling Resistance


Greg Sorrentino

[bill gillespie]

Hi Greg,

Does the XFR still exist, or was it a Raven donor ?
Best regards,
Bill

[quartzracer]

Bill,

The XFR does exist, we bought the whole project from Greg. The project sits as there has been little time to play with it. People who think they know this project really have no idea what a technical car this really is. Greg spent many hours making this what he believes was the ultimate Pro Atlantic car. The car really never showed its true potential due to factors outside of Greg's control. Prior to being stored the car was completely re-assembled by Jason Robb the crew chief for Lynx Racing and Alex Barons Chanpionship winning season! He will confirm the build and engineering that went into this car!

[bill gillespie]

I watched as the car took shape from paper to on-track. Very innovative, and I was a true believer.

Watched it run at Road Atlanta, and it blew the pods off my RT40 at Road America with a tired Toyota. I remember some issues with mounting points in the tub, but I don't recall the other concerns ....other than budget.

I would be grateful if you could fill in the gaps for my failing memory.

Many thanks,
Bill

[VehDyn]

Now that you have us intrigued, could you post pictures of the XFR you guys are discussing?

[xfrgs]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the kind words. For starters, XFR stands for Xtreme Formula Racer. In looking back I think we accomplished it. It was the first car that used Brembo Brakes from F3000 cars packaged into a 13" wheel. A task that Swift could not match and required a rule deviation in using a 15" diameter wheel.

Bill, you were not the only RT40 blown the doors off. At the run-off, Tony Avey was leading the race over another RT40 until a few laps from the end we had a piston melt down.

Like any new car we did have some minor glitches but by the time 1996 arrived all those issues were non-existent. The only issue that always existed was the lack of proper funding as many of us know.

Greg

[Rick Ross]

Is this it???

http://www.vintagerpm.com/images/SCCA/FA_9411-37.jpg

[xfrgs]

I have some pictures, how do I post them?

[quartzracer]

Jason Robb was the crew chief for Alex Baron's Championship winning Lynx Racing RT41. He was a non believer when I first contacted him in regard to assembling the XFR. He told me that he and his lynx teammates used to watch as the XFR arrived at the track in a state of disassembly(almost a bare tub). They would watch an underfinanced team try to hustle the thing together in time for practice. None of this was the fault of Sorrentino's but the cars reputation suffered. Jason was reluctant to take on the project until he looked over the car. He was amazed at the quality of the build and the engineering that went into the car. He took on the job and made small inprovements here and there. Greg produced a car that is second to none! After the car was assembled Jason was a true believer in the cars potential. He then went to work for Newman Wachs Racing and the car has been in storage. Many think that the car is a modified Reynard 89/90H it is not! The car is pure Sorrentino. Greg was easy to work with only one small misunderstanding....sorry Greg.

Photo credit: Mark Windecker
http://mwphotos.homestead.com/home.html


Eric

[quartzracer]

The XFR Formula Atlantic has shown unlimited potential as a one off race car designed by Greg Sorrentino. The car was specifically designed to compete in the Cart Toyota Atlantic Pro Series (1996-1997) prior to the series electing to go with a spec. chassis (Swift 008). The car never reached its full potential due to driver's inexperience and conflicts between the designer and the Team contracted to run the car.

The car has since been completely taken apart and every detail of the reconstruction has been looked over by Jason Robb who was the crew chief for Lynx Racing during their Championship Year with Alex Baron and Memo Gidley. Many small issues were found and corrected by Jason who will attest to the quality and build of this car.

The XFR was a no expense spared project by Greg Sorrentino who aspired to produce the ultimate chassis in limited numbers prior to being shut out of the Atlantic chassis market. Only the best in the business (EG Composites, Indianapolis, Preform Resources, Redford, MI.) were contracted to manufacture parts for the XFR.

Looking at the test results performed on the chassis in regard to torsional stiffness shows a car design well ahead of its competition. During the design process of the XFR Sorrentino made extensive use of computer-aided vehicle dynamics engineering in suspension design, including 3D kinematic modeling and finite element analysis.

The XFR Project which I purchased consists of all proprietary information including: CAD engineering, 3D kinematic modeling and finite element analysis documentation, all jigs and molds specific to the XFR. One complete XFR as run in the Pro series, by Peter Baron and Bob Thomas, and enough spares to make a (new) second car.

Below is a description of the car published in the 1996 SportsCar Buyer's Guide.

The XFR GS-96 is the current model designation for this American-built car designed by Greg Sorrentino. "Loosely based" on the Reynard 89-90H tub. It was originally built in early 1993 but was not raced until 1994 by Tony Ave at the June Sprints@, Ave climbed into the untested car and managed to qualify on the front row and finish second. Then at the Runoffs@, Ave led in the early going until he was sidelined by fuel pump failure, . Since then the chassis has gradually evolved. Sorrentino reports that the GS-96's carbon fiber monocoque is stiffer then its predecessor and has a smaller "F1 look" cockpit opening which takes full advantage of the current rules. New side pods have been developed with a lower profile and "coke bottle" shape design, and Sorrentino claims this car now has the smallest frontal area of any Atlantic car out there today.

The introduction of the taller Yokohama spec tire in the pro series meant the front geometry had to be revised to take maximum advantage of the larger footprint and maintain proper camber characteristics. However instead of just shortening the push rods the car has new suspension pickup points for the new tires and thus retains the ability to be used with the 2-3 inch smaller diameter "old" tires for club racing.

The XFR is was going to be offered in three different configurations (Club, Club/Pro and Pro) this car is the "Pro" model which has billet front uprights, fabricated 4130 rear uprights, stainless steel exhaust system, and has Brembo brake technology borrowed from Europe's F3000 cars. in 1996 the roller was priced at $73,500.00.

Note: There are many unique proprietary developments and concepts associated with the design of the XFR, it is not a modified Reynard by any sense of the imagination. Only 20 percent of the original tub was used which eliminated the expense of the FIA testing process to homologate this car for use in SCCA competition. Every other aspect of this car is pure Sorrentino.

It has been noted that the car has very large tunnels, the profiles were taken from a full size CART car (86 March). The tunnels have since been modified so that the rear tunnel extensions can now be removed.
The car raced in the Pro series where it competed against the notorious Ralt RT-40/41. At times the XFR showed remarkable split times at certain venues with a set of rookie driver's behind the wheel. This package is tailored for someone who wants to run something different and has an engineering background to fine tune the car into an unbeatable front runner, or a team looking to build the ultimate CSR package.

Pro-Toyota Engines: (included)

* One fresh Hasselgren fuel injected Pro-Engine rebuilt zero miles (dyno time only). Complete with ignition coils, ECU and shipping crate.

* One Hasselgren carbureted Pro-Engine, low miles, needs to be inspected due to blown head gasket. Prior to that the engine received a new block, crank, pistons and rods from Hasselgren who exclusively maintained both of these motors. (The engine has subsequently been inspected and found to be in excellent condition. The engine will receive new bearings, gaskets etc.. and will be re-assembled.

[bill gillespie]

Jason....sorry for the massive thread drift.......Quartz, thanks for all the info. What are your plans for the XFR ,,,store, run sell ??

Regards,
Bill

[quartzracer]

Bill, The car is not actively for sale, but I would love to see a team run this car and do it justice. I'm open? I am also sorry for the thread hi-jack.

[Rick Ross]

Greg has posted lots of XFR pictures in an album on his Apexspeed profile page.

[Stan Clayton]

If that first photo showing Greg's shop is any indication of how "underfunded" they were, maybe we should all just give up!

[quartzracer]

Stan, I know Greg sank a ton of money into the XFR "no expense spared." I think the under financing was on the other end.

Eric

[xfrgs]

Thanks kindly to all of you. Somtime in the future I will be posting the history of my team and the XFR on my websites.

www.XFR.com and www.differrentdrummerracing/as

Greg

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, Eric...the "winkie" in my post indicates irony on many levels.

Thanks for the links, Greg. I know I join many others in urging you to add the history to your website. We Atlantic guys will all find it fascinating reading.

[quartzracer]

Stan, That's not a winkie....that's a smilie! That's a "Ha." Hey when are you picking up that nice Cicale bodywork???? See you soon.

Eric

[Stan Clayton]

I still haven't gotten down to the south bay...

[Charles Warner]

the infamous Ralt RT-40/41.

infamous?????

[quartzracer]

Ok, Charles how about NOTORIOUS

[Charles Warner]

Ok, Charles how about NOTORIOUS

"Notorious - ill-famed: known widely and usually unfavorably"

Nope! The RT-40/41 was certainly not notorious or infamous. They were well-designed, fast, all-conquering, at the forefront, etc. but I have a hard time understanding the negative connotation. Is it because they were more successful than the rest?

[quartzracer]

NOTORIOUS: 2.publicly or generally known, as for a particular trait.

That particular trait would be winning! Hey I'm a college grad....come-on

Charles relax no negative connotation implied or association with a derogatory noun. see word origin below.

Word Origin & History

notorious
1548, "publicly known," from M.L. notorius "well-known, commonly known," from L. notus "known," pp. of noscere "come to know" (see know). Negative connotation arose 17c. from frequent association with derogatory nouns.