Is there a formula class for a Hayabusa powered car?

[breakaway500]

I know it would not be FB,but a stock gsxr Stohr F1000 runs FB so I thought someone here may know the answer. I was entertaining the idea of a Stohr F1000 purchase,but really prefer the Hayabusa/Bking powerplant,as I mostly do HPDEs and TTs,and the Haya motor is a bit more rugged from what I have seen and heard. Stohr also makes a conversion kit to do a Haya motor in the car. Is there a class that the Stohr with a Haya motor could be legally run in and be competitive or should I reconsider and buy a different formula car?I'd like sequential shifting and 200ish hp. I am running an Atom now,but it is not a formula car. Thanks.

[Stan Clayton]

Welcome to ApexSpeed. Yes, the class is Formula S, which is eligible to run in SCCA Regional races nation-wide. In fact, there is a Hayabusa-powered Stohr F-1000 car here in San Francisco Region that races very successfully. Stan

[breakaway500]

Thanks,Stan. Is Formula S relatively new, as I do not see a section for it on the main page? Is it a sub class of another class? The Stohr I am considering purchasing is located in Sacramento but has no track time on it. I was thinking I could run it with the gsxr1000 and see how things progressed. I like the fact that the car has factory available parts to do the conversion to Hayabusa power,if need be.

[formulasuper]

Thanks,Stan. Is Formula S relatively new, as I do not see a section for it on the main page? Is it a sub class of another class? The Stohr I am considering purchasing is located in Sacramento but has no track time on it. I was thinking I could run it with the gsxr1000 and see how things progressed. I like the fact that the car has factory available parts to do the conversion to Hayabusa power,if need be.

Hey Mark, I have the first ever (at least in the USA) Busa powered formula car, a 83' Ralt RT5 SuperVee that I converted over to the Hayabusa engine 4 years ago & run in FS. I started this conversion about 6 years ago before the FB (F1000) class had ever been thought of & I still believe that my project was what gave carnut169 (Sean O'connell - the first F1000 builder) the idea for his conversion of his 96' VD to a Suzuki 1000cc engine.

[breakaway500]

Scott,have you been happy with the Busa motor? I have friends with them in bikes mostly,and I have read they hold up well in the Radicals,so it seems a natural for the Stohr. A sub 1k.lb. car with 200hp seems like it would be ideal on track. My Atoms are 1500lbs and have about 235whp and are nice track cars...but that extra 500lbs is not helping the cause. Plus,no sequential shifter and no class to really run it in. Most clubs class it as open wheel formula(I run Hoosier FA tires on 10" and 12" Keizer wheels and no fenders) where it is NO match for most formula cars. I can beat up on the older F500's and older FFs..but anything truly of modern formula class is out of my league. Sure,I could add some more hp,but my goal is less weight,and to get into a real race car..Can't really take any more out of the Atom,so it's time for a formula car. The Stohr F1000 really caught my eye and they seem very well built and reasonably priced. Thanks for the advice!

[formulasuper]

Scott,have you been happy with the Busa motor? I have friends with them in bikes mostly,and I have read they hold up well in the Radicals,so it seems a natural for the Stohr. A sub 1k.lb. car with 200hp seems like it would be ideal on track. My Atoms are 1500lbs and have about 235whp and are nice track cars...but that extra 500lbs is not helping the cause. Plus,no sequential shifter and no class to really run it in. Most clubs class it as open wheel formula(I run Hoosier FA tires on 10" and 12" Keizer wheels and no fenders) where it is NO match for most formula cars. I can beat up on the older F500's and older FFs..but anything truly of modern formula class is out of my league. Sure,I could add some more hp,but my goal is less weight,and to get into a real race car..Can't really take any more out of the Atom,so it's time for a formula car. The Stohr F1000 really caught my eye and they seem very well built and reasonably priced. Thanks for the advice!

Oh Ya! IMHO, the FB guys should have all used the stock 1300cc Busa as the spec engine for their class. As you stated, it's a very rugged engine that produces about the same HP as a 1000 engine, a little more torque & does it at 10,500 rpm. My Ralt/Busa has a safer monoque chassis & weighs in at 1000lbs without the driver. Even though it has vintage style rocker arm suspension, a low cost spool (no differential), a large frontal area, standard shifter (no paddles) & weighs in at 1175 lbs with driver it still turns laps at Road Atlanta faster than all classes except for FA, DSR, FB & a few CSR's, while on other racers take-off tires. I've got around $10K invested in it after selling off all the VW/Hewland parts & spares (did all the work myself). A Stohr should make an even faster FS, but will probably cost more than $10K!

[Marshall Mauney]

Is Formula S relatively new, as I do not see a section for it on the main page? Is it a sub class of another class?

Formula S is regional-only, so you can't run nationals in one. It is basically a catch-all class for formula cars that meet the safety rules and homologation but don't meet the details of the national-class specs.

[Red Humpy]

Mark,
You might consider actually sitting/squeezing into a Stohr cockpit to see if you fit and feel comfortable. I'm pretty short at 5'6" but a bit above aveage in width, LOL. I have a 43" chest 33" waist and pretty heavy calf muscles. I am about 185#.I could only just barely fit in it and it was a real tight squeeze to the point of torture.
The FB is a very fast machine and I really think it has plenty of power with the "stock" powerplant. Their times on real road track with a good driver are quite astonishing. This assumes you can actually get in it
Red Humpy (A.K.A Calscot )

[formulasuper]

Formula S is regional-only, so you can't run nationals in one. It is basically a catch-all class for formula cars that meet the safety rules and homologation but don't meet the details of the national-class specs.

It not only doesn't meet national-class specs but does not meet the specs of any other SCCA class, regional or national. The national championship for regional-only class cars is held Nov 6-8 at Rd Atlanta & is called the ARRC, American Road Race of Champions. A much cooler name than the Runnoffs!

[breakaway500]

Interesting about sizing..and this is why I actually have not pulled the trigger on a Stohr F1000. I am 6'2" tall with a 38 waist and 235lbs. I like the Atom because I fit well.I have attempted to squeeze into a few formula cars I have encountered and they were too tight to operate.I was under the assumption that the Stohr F1000 would accommodate larger drivers.There are none up this way in new england so I have not had an opportunity to actually sit in one. Fit is pretty important to me as I do like to be able to work in the cockpit.I have considered modifying an Atom for single seating and potentially less weight,but it would be a lot of work and I still may end up with a classless abortion.

Hi Calscot! Not much chatter on the Atom forum lately,other than the typical UK vs. USA garbage. I am sick to death of it. I know you got a chance to drive Randys Stohr F1000 and I have talked at length with him about the car.It would be nice to hop in one to try it on for size,but that seems to not be possible. I suppose I can modify anything to fit...

[Red Humpy]

Interesting about sizing..and this is why I actually have not pulled the trigger on a Stohr F1000. I am 6'2" tall with a 38 waist and 235lbs. I like the Atom because I fit well.I have attempted to squeeze into a few formula cars I have encountered and they were too tight to operate.I was under the assumption that the Stohr F1000 would accommodate larger drivers.There are none up this way in new england so I have not had an opportunity to actually sit in one. Fit is pretty important to me as I do like to be able to work in the cockpit.I have considered modifying an Atom for single seating and potentially less weight,but it would be a lot of work and I still may end up with a classless abortion.

Hi Calscot! Not much chatter on the Atom forum lately,other than the typical UK vs. USA garbage. I am sick to death of it. I know you got a chance to drive Randys Stohr F1000 and I have talked at length with him about the car.It would be nice to hop in one to try it on for size,but that seems to not be possible. I suppose I can modify anything to fit...

I think your just too big TBH. Especially since you prefer some room as you mentioned. Anything can modified of course but even myself as a welding engineer, I would not tackle the Stohr as a widening project. It would be easier to just look at a different car to fit in and achieve what you want.
I have been lurking on this site for over a year. It took me that long just to figure out half the lingo and what classes was what. I still know jack squat but I did just by a mint F2000 car this weekend. My choice was based on many factors. One. I did fit in the car quite well. It's much roomier than a Stohr. I think you need to look at other cars that you fit in, that have a decent run group at your "closer" tracks and have the performance you want to start out in. Lts of good help on here. Don't be scared to ask daft questions.

[Evl]

If you're looking for roomy, FE and FM are great choices in the formula classes. Not quite as fast as FB, but not slow either, and there tend to be more people to race against.

[rickb99]

Interesting about sizing..and this is why I actually have not pulled the trigger on a Stohr F1000. I am 6'2" tall with a 38 waist and 235lbs....

Hmm, yeah I wouldn't "pull-the-trigger" without sitting in one. Depending upon just how you are constructed, it could be a jam situation.

If you have the budget for a Stohr, you might want to look at the Firman before making a final decision. Although I have yet to see one in action here in the Northwest, I understand they are built for the 'more normal' size people of today. Not sure they have a Hayabusa option as yet but I'm sure it will come.

http://www.firmanwestcars.com/RFR.shtml

[breakaway500]

Hmm.. before the Stohr F1000 caught my eye,I was leaning toward an FC car with a Zetec, as I have loads of engine parts and am very familiar with the engines. The few I have tried to fit in were quite snug.No sequential boxes either, I believe. I guess I'll have to keep looking. There are a few FC cars for sale close by,so maybe I should try a few more out..Damn,I like the look of that Stohr..especially in red.

[Wright D]

Before you buy you should take a look at a Phoenix. We have had some bigger guys sit in the car at the June Sprints, and in our shop, they all have had plenty of room. That said, we have also had some smaller guys and everyone fits, has good visibility, comfortable access to all the controls, and plenty of room for a safe energy absorbing bead seat. I invite you to come to our shop or meet us at the ARRC to see how comfortable you feel in a Phoenix.

We also offer rentals if you would like to see how the car performs prior to buying and if you aren't satisfied with the 1 liter we can put it the Hayabusa motor for you. As we have designed this chassis for many different classes we have multiple power plant options available as well as sports racer bodywork. I have a feeling you will be blown away by the performance of our car in any configuration!!!

[Red Humpy]

Before you buy you should take a look at a Phoenix. We have had some bigger guys sit in the car at the June Sprints, and in our shop, they all have had plenty of room. That said, we have also had some smaller guys and everyone fits, has good visibility, comfortable access to all the controls, and plenty of room for a safe energy absorbing bead seat. I invite you to come to our shop or meet us at the ARRC to see how comfortable you feel in a Phoenix.

We also offer rentals if you would like to see how the car performs prior to buying and if you aren't satisfied with the 1 liter we can put it the Hayabusa motor for you. As we have designed this chassis for many different classes we have multiple power plant options available as well as sports racer bodywork. I have a feeling you will be blown away by the performance of our car in any configuration!!!

There you go Breakaway! You can finally get something to beat my 500BHP Ariel Atom

On a more serious note; I know you are a master mechanic but some of the classes have sealed engines so you would not be able to do the engine work. For you, that might be a deal breaker. Just an FYI.

[breakaway500]

Horsepower isn't everything,my friend.My Atom (and I)have taken a few FTDs against very worthy opponents,some with three times the HP as my little Atom.As much as I like my Atom(s),they are NOT purpose built race cars.The Atom has taught me how important chassis setup is and tuning a car to the driver and track. A formula car is designed specifically to get the most out of track time.No compromises. This is the direction I am heading. Just not sure which one..yet. Got to go check out the Phoenix now...maybe a trip out is in order..

[Mike B]

A trip to Road Atlanta next week would answer lots of questions for you. As of right now, there are Firmans, Stohrs, Van Diemens, and a Citation registered. It sure sounds like there will be a Phoenix there, too. You could sit in all of them and make a decision. Bring a trailer and you could go home with one of them!

[Northwind]

I'll back up what Dustin and Mike said. Take a ride to Georgia and check them out. Most of the FC to FB conversions are going to be a bit tight for you depending on what type of seat has been made for the driver of the car. I did take a good look at the Phoenix at the Junesprints and it has alot of room. It is also a very good car. An FB will have enough performance for you with the 1000 motor for the events you will be running. No need to add extra cost to change over to a bigger engine. Test one you will not be dissappointed. Keeping it an FB will help hold it's value and add flexibility on the events the car could run.

[breakaway500]

Very good advice.I can't drive to Atlanta next week,though.I wouldn't have thought going to a race would include trying on cars,but after the races,why not? Damn good advice..and entertaining. If I go down there..I may never come back here..

[SteveLevin]

I mostly do HPDEs and TTs,and the Haya motor is a bit more rugged from what I have seen and heard.

Are you "converting" over to competition, or still intending to do HPDE stuff? Doing HPDE in a 1,000 pound formula car mixed in amongst street cars would not be something I'd be thrilled with doing. I am very tentative during HPDE's with my SRF, and it's a tank compared to an FB.

Steve

[breakaway500]

I'm not bothered by other cars on track with the Atom,so why would the formula car be that much different? I would not be out with green drivers.But,I do understand your reason for caution. I'm not sure if I will get into racing per say..I really just enjoy a good day of driving on track faster than I ever thought possible..I'm pretty new to it all.Competition is great..but it's not why I am out there..hell..I would love to have the track all to my self!

[formulasuper]

I'm not bothered by other cars on track with the Atom,so why would the formula car be that much different? I would not be out with green drivers.But,I do understand your reason for caution. I'm not sure if I will get into racing per say..I really just enjoy a good day of driving on track faster than I ever thought possible..I'm pretty new to it all.Competition is great..but it's not why I am out there..hell..I would love to have the track all to my self!

If track days are what you're looking at & not SCCA national racing I say stick with your original idea of using a Busa 1300 over the more highly stressed 1000 engines.

[glenn cooper]

Man if that's the case, save yourself TONS and get a Radical w/ a Busa...
GC

[rickb99]

...I wouldn't have thought going to a race would include trying on cars, but....

Go to some SCCA races or other sanctioning body races where formula cars are running. Look at the cars you're thinking about and TALK with people. If you see something you sort like and the driver is a decent chap, ask if you can try it on. 99% of the time the answer will be SURE step right in there.

[breakaway500]

I considered Radicals and even a 2-Eleven Lotus..but really like open wheel formula cars.To me,they are the essence of speed on 4 wheels.I don't have any plans to enter a race series at this time,but it would be a nice option to have.The club I TT with has a few Formula cars running and they are impressive.I will have to make up my mind which direction I go in; bike or car power. I really like the Zetec engine,but love the sound of the bike powered cars.Just not crazy about chain drive.I guess it will come down to coming across a deal I can't refuse..

[formulasuper]

Man if that's the case, save yourself TONS and get a Radical w/ a Busa...
GC

Hey, we don't need no stinking fenders!

And a Radical would look pretty lame with the fenders Sawzalled off!

[glenn cooper]

running an open wheel car with tin tops in the same run group, hence the sportsracer suggestion. Then agian that's no guarantee of safety either, just safer in my opinion.
GC

[breakaway500]

What I would really like to do is find a FC Zetec roller or another formula car that could bolt up a Zetec and handle the power (FA?) as I have a supercharged,injected Zetec setup I would like to utilize in a formula car.Once again,not really concerned with class rules..just looking for a track toy. The Zetec makes about 235whp and has a nice,fat torque curve. There is a FA car for sale close by (Swift DB4) that has no Toyota motor,but I am not familiar enough to know if a Zetec could be substituted into that chassis and bolt up to the transaxle.(adaptor available? Different bellhousing?) I am pretty handy with tools,so unless it requires lots of machining,I can get it done.Might sound a bit crazy,but that is how I think,sometimes. Maybe I should post an ad under wanted looking for Zetec roller? Probably FC? Maybe I should keep playing with the Atoms and stay away from formula cars? I dunno..I just think a 1k.lb. formula car with 235whp would be a blast to drive.

[Evl]

As someone who had to go through a driver's school in an F5 running in the same run group as SM, I'm with the other cowards who wouldn't want to be out there with the tin-tops. Your eye line is about even with their bumpers.

[glenn cooper]

a lot of tire to hook up that high HP beast. You'll be spinning the 8" or 10" rear tires of an FC. Best to go FA chassis. DB4 is a tight fit for moderate sized guys, impossible for the Big and Tall / Husky types.
"Hey, Im not fat, I'm Big Boned" - E. Cartman
GC

[Stan Clayton]

a lot of tire to hook up that high HP beast. You'll be spinning the 8" or 10" rear tires of an FC.

Wow...Gian Carlo, did you drive a Vee or sumpin' before you grew up and built that FB? WHo cares about smokin' tires? That throttle's not an on-off switch, you know!?

[breakaway500]

The Atom has 235whp and I am running the (FA) R25B 2.5x13x15 Hoosiers (rear) with excellent results. That is why I am thinking FA chassis for the big 15" rubber,but I need to know if the Zetec can be substituted for a Toyota engine in such a chassis,or if another class of formula car would also handle the HP. I think it would be a nice project this winter. If the Zetec can be used in a FA car that had a toyota motor (reasonably..) I would consider it.

Or,I could just do an FB car with a Hayabusa and be done with it... hmm..

Or,I could do an LS3 mid engine in the Atom...

[Stan Clayton]

...I need to know if the Zetec can be substituted for a Toyota engine in such a chassis,or if another class of formula car would also handle the HP.

The only FA chassis that will accept a Zetec "drop in" is the Swift 016a, which is designed to take the Mazda MZR 2.3. All others can be modified to accept the Zetec, but that will entail a complete rebuild of the car...new engine bay, tunnels, side pods, engine cover, etc. Also, the only transaxles that will handle the extra torque and hp of a built 2-liter engine are in the Swift 016a and 014a, and the Reynards. In the others (Ralts, earlier Swifts), the gearbox is maxed out with the 1600cc motor.

[breakaway500]

Can an FC chassis equipped with a Zetec already handle 235whp through the transaxle without being trouble?Are there specific brands and models that can?(Swift,Reynards etc) Do FC cars run 15" rubber? Thanks for all the help.. I only know enough about formula construction to be dangerous,and that is not my goal.

[Stan Clayton]

Nearly all FCs built over the past 20 years came with a Hewland LD-200 4-sp h-pattern gearbox. The generally accepted upper power limit for that gearbox is 195 hp. To handle 235 hp, you will want to get a Hewland Mk5 4-sp (very rare and pricey) or a Staffs 5-sp (uses Mk5 internals, and more reasonably priced). The Hewland Mk5 will bolt right in place of an LD-200 AFAIK, but the Staffs will need a new adapter, as its bolt pattern is different. In either case, the entire rear end of the car will need redesigning.

The only reasonably priced FC option is to stop at 195 hp. This will still give you near-Atlantic speeds at a much more affordable price.

FCs will take 8" wide and 10" wide wheels, but not Atlantic sizes.

[glenn cooper]

ever growing up Stan.

As for spinnin' tires, I did however take part in the first Pro Drift event at Rd Atl w/ my older turbo RX7.
It did not go well...

GC

[Richard Dziak]

If your serious about a high speed high performance formula race car, I would highly recommend that you spend some time speaking with Dustin Wright owner of Phoenix Race Works.

I am a living testimonial for the Phoenix F1000 as an owner/driver. It would be hard to find another F1000 that will match the standards of the Phoenix f1000. I have the first generation Phoenix F1000 2007, and the car has been flawless in its performance. I am 6' 240LBs...and fit well.....the newer generation has even more room.

I have not posted here on ApexSpeed for some time for various reasons but had to chime in on this thread.

I can guarentee that you would NOT be disappointed owning or renting a Phoenix F1000.

Ask lots of questions, and rent before you buy. The purchase of any NEW constructor built car is a major purchase. It is not an investment. Be sure that you have made the correct decision on what you want, before you write the check.

GMAC, Ford Motor Credit or any bank will not finance this purchase. Once you buy the car it is a depreciating asset, so make sure you test and drive before you buy.

You do not want to suffer BUYERS REMORSE......complete your due diligence throughly.

Consider the Phoenix F1000....you have NOTHING to lose by spending some time talking with Dustin Wright @ Phoenix Race Works. He is a top notch class guy.

[breakaway500]

Thank you all for the responses. The Phoenix does appear to be the way to go for a bike powered formula car. I buy and sell cars as a sideline to repairing them,so I know a little bit about depreciating assets vs, investment cars. I pay cash for my cars. I do believe I will have to take a trip out to Phoenix and see what they are all about. With winter coming on, a vacation after the first of the year would be a welcome relief.

[D.T. Benner]

Let me go back to Stan's comments about the Zetec power limit in an FC chassis.
I run a Van Diemen Zetec in FS with a 200 HP Zetec and yes it is one sweet reliable engine. The LD-200 gearbox is maxed out at 195-200 HP BUT there is a way to use your 235 HP engine! Hewland makes a version of the Pro Mazda Sequential gearbox that has the same interface dimensions as an LD. That gearbox is good for 250-300HP and would handle your Zetec. I would put one in my car but lack the $$$ to do so.
Would the chassis handle the power? I think it would as the drive axles and tripods are the same size as those used on a Pro Mazda (240 HP) and the suspension bearings are also the same size.
To get the most in Lap Times for that HP you would need to up-grade to larger brakes but that is not extreamly difficult as kits are available .
FS is a fun class and I find that even with "only" 200 HP I can run at/or near the front of the class. BIG HP and/or BIG $$$ do not always win.