Ford proposal to the SCCA

[Shep]

It's funny, when I brought up the use of the Fiesta engine a year ago, people told me not to go there:
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...0&postcount=23

Fast forward a year, and it seems there are a whole bunch of people who would now gladly take the Duratec if it meant no Honda. Giddy with anticipation...

[Stan Clayton]

...deranged mental patients.

Hey...I resemble that remark!

[jivey]

I don't get it - A person like Stan who was so supportive and instumental in helping us get the alternative parts approved - that's made such a differance in the reliability in our engines is so against what ford is trying to do. - Sorry guy's but it really doesn't matter formula car racing in SCCA is circuling the drain. -- Maybe past nat. champs. have driven the honda BIG DEAL their old farts like me they know their craft they don't miss shifts. You guy's are talking about bringing young people in to this class to stengthen it. Give this car to a 16 year old want to be racer at laguna seca and see what happens - when he's exiting the corkscrew scared ****less trying to go fast and fishing for gears! Sorry Stan these people haven't done neerly the testing they need to to try to change a class that's been here for 40yrs. And if this has been the most extensive testing that has been done in the history of SCCA - Then they didn't pay attention to my work. - And in this decision like others they make decisions on hearsay other than fact. -- Jay

[Rennie Clayton]

...Stan ... is so against what ford is trying to do.

Jay,

With due respect, stick to facts. This is not one.


Thank you,
Rennie

[Stan Clayton]

I don't get it - A person like Stan who was so supportive and instumental in helping us get the alternative parts approved - that's made such a differance in the reliability in our engines is so against what ford is trying to do.

Jay, let me assure you that I am in no way against what Ford are trying to do. I have been out front cheering the news that Ford will be casting new Kent blocks and that they are planning to bring the new FF engine to SCCA.

I have been equally vocal in my support for the Fit in FF, and I support it for the same reasons I supported new and better parts for the Kent, Pinto and other engines in the Club...because they are good for our members' long term interests.

To claim that the Duratec and Fit are "unproven" and that lots more testing needs to be done is just plain silly. Those engines had to pass repeated 150,000-mile durability tests before being approved for sale in the US, and they still had to make rated horsepower and torque, and pass all emissions standards at the end of that testing. Moreover, to claim that the new engines won't hold up to racing is to ignore the Zetec in FC. The Zetec is an older and less refined design than either the Duratec or Fit, yet a bone-stock crate-motor Zetec typically goes 5 times as far between overhauls as a race prepared Pinto at equal power levels. I'm not claiming any particular mileage for the Fit or Duratec, but the idea that they won't be up to the task defies logic and our collective experience.

Likewise, the idea that Honda will "cheat" on the motor, that they will "have to beat Ford" in FF, and that the CRB/BoD will not be able to resist the pressure from Honda to give it a leg up on the Kent is equally myopic. Folks who honestly believe that need to put on their glasses and take a look around the non-FF paddock. Honda compete on equal footing with other manufacturers in probably a dozen National classes, yet where is that pressure to give Honda an advantage in those classes? It doesn't exist, guys, because the competitors and other manufacturers are quick to point out any apparent advantage held by someone else.

The bottom line, Jay, is that nothing has changed for me with regard to FF. I want now what I have always wanted for FF...a robust and affordable wingless formula class that has long term viability.

Back to lurking...

[jivey]

Sorry Renne, The words should be non supportive or uninformed. But the facts are right. Check the posts.--The thing you don't understand and I always say is that I respect Stan very much for everything he has done for us and the club. But he should be unbiased here. I am--- I only want people to know what's ahead. I don't want people to spend money on something that doesn't do anything more for them that they already have. The thing that gets me is where are the people that have something to gain from this. You don't hear from them because they don't give a **** they just hope you people will carry the ball for them. And then when the block is done and they have an opportunity to jump on the bus --- -( like in the past) they'll be involved when all the work is done. --
I went testing with some new drivers last week they didn't have any idea what engine was in the car. They just had a great time and ran all day. (did laps thats what it's all about) -- --Jay
Sorry just rambling. This is so much bigger than any of us.

[Matt King]

I went testing with some new drivers last week they didn't have any idea what engine was in the car. They just had a great time and ran all day. (did laps thats what it's all about) -- --Jay

Which is why the engine in a car like a FF should be an off-the-shelf commodity crate engine available anywhere, anytime for a reasonable cost, not a hand-massaged work of art that has been developed with over 40 years experience, and priced accordingly.

[jivey]

like I said matt give cars to new people and let them go. These engines had lots of time on them but still performed under the abuse.Put in your street engine. Please send me the receipt when you buy your new street car engine for your FF. It was an observation. Spend your own money to help support a racing customer. It's about passion & support for your customers.

[stonebridge20]

Well, my long response to Tim, Stan and anybody else with a box of popcorn won't be that long winded. Erik Shep wrote a better letter/post than I could ever come up with in the other Honda thread. Jay Novak has explained what I think Fords position in the class will be as well or better than I could.
What I will add is that with the "proposal" we have seen how much it can fracture the class of FF as we know it. We saw it last year over a minor issue like a set of wheels. What the "proposal" has done is brought us to the next level and it's an ugly sight. I think we all need to sit back and look at what it has and will do to us as a pretty close knit group. The "proposal" is just a preview of the division that will face us in the future if Formula Ford becomes a multi manufacturer class. Parity cost's money and that's exactly what we don't want or this whole issue would never have come to see the light of day. Parity or lack there of, in my experiance comes in two forms. It is either a true fact or it is perceived. The two share one common trait. They are argued over in an endless battle. This is not what Formula Ford needs to move the class forward. What the class needs is incentive for young people to want to either use it as a stepping stone to some other higher formula or to have the best time racing in the class for the next 25 years or so. I just don't see any new engine as being the magic pill. I am not "anti new" wheather it be Honda, Ford or any other manufacturer. I am "anti division" within the class. I am not happy about a new Ford engine in the class but if a "modern" engine is what some people want, then I think that option should be open to them. I think Ford is in a much better position to give both "sides" what they want. As Jay Novak has tried to explain, I think we would end up with parity being a non issue as Ford would be competing with themselves in any engine war. General consensus here is that anybody wanting a "modern" engine is more than happy at knowing their "modern" engine will be down on power compared to a front row kent. If that's true then a proper evaluation can be done by multi engine builders on the Duratec that is overseen by the CRB. A map and restrictor can be set (same numbers proposed by Honda) and then a rule be placed that no comp adjustments will be made to the Duratec. This keeps the Kent "side" happy as there's no threat of obsolence and it also keeps the modern engine "side" happy with the idea of an affordable long life engine. The people that we need to figure out how to get started in Formula Ford will then have a choice as to which is best for their program. We have the power as a group to make the parity game a non issue if this is done correctly. Ford is the only manufacturer that opens that door to us. It's what we make of the opportunity as a united group that counts in the future of Formula Ford.

Stan, Tim, and anybody else. I hope this is acceptable as we need to stop the fighting and move forward.

Thanks, Mike





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[dc]

But he should be unbiased here. I am--- I only want people to know what's ahead. I don't want people to spend money on something that doesn't do anything more for them that they already have. The thing that gets me is where are the people that have something to gain from this. You don't hear from them because they don't give a **** they just hope you people will carry the ball for them. And then when the block is done and they have an opportunity to jump on the bus --- -( like in the past) they'll be involved when all the work is done.

Jay, quite frankly, I'm tired of your continued verbal assault on this forum and its members. You were correct in editing your post from last night—it was unbelievably out of line, and would get just about anyone banned here for good.

Stop knocking the ApexSpeed members who pay you a lot of money to rebuild those 40-year old Ford engines, Jay. If these forums have so little to offer you and your company, then leave it to the racers and businesses that it supports and has helped for the last decade.

[Matt King]

Too much power and influence is exerted on the SCCA by professional prep shops and engine builders. It's not unlike the corruption of the political process by lobbyists in Washington. If that opinion pisses off people with a vested interest in the status quo, so be it.

[Bill Steele]

Too much power and influence is exerted on the SCCA by professional prep shops and engine builders. It's not unlike the corruption of the political process by lobbyists in Washington. If that opinion pisses off people with a vested interest in the status quo, so be it.

Matt, while I understand your opinion, I think a little differently about it. I do agree with your opinion on the influence of prep shops, constructors and engine builders on SCCA. What I don't agree with is that such influence is all bad.

My viewpoint is the influence professional prep shops, constructors and engine builders exert on the rules making process is for the most part, a good thing. The way I see it, the guys making their living at the sport are generally in the best position to judge the benefit a given idea might have on the class. In addition, the fact that they make their living at the sport means maybe they should have a greater impact on rules changes that might impact their livelihoods.

Finally, the professionals in the sport are here year in and year out, acting as anchors. I have started and quit racing in SCCA three times. All through this time guys like Neil, Arnie, Jay, Sandy, et al. have been there selling parts, building engines, fixing broken frames, etc. Without these guys we wouldn't have a sport, so for me, I do think they deserve to exert added influence.

This is all not to say that I always agree with a position some of the pros might take, like on the Honda proposal for instance, but I never lose sight at the difference between my commitment to the sport and theirs.

In the end this sport is just a hobby for me. For those that make their living at it, it is a lot more.

[stonebridge20]

Matt, while I understand your opinion, I think a little differently about it. I do agree with your opinion on the influence of prep shops, constructors and engine builders on SCCA. What I don't agree with is that such influence is all bad.

My viewpoint is the influence professional prep shops, constructors and engine builders exert on the rules making process is for the most part, a good thing. The way I see it, the guys making their living at the sport are generally in the best position to judge the benefit a given idea might have on the class. In addition, the fact that they make their living at the sport means maybe they should have a greater impact on rules changes that might impact their livelihoods.

Finally, the professionals in the sport are here year in and year out, acting as anchors. I have started and quit racing in SCCA three times. All through this time guys like Neil, Arnie, Jay, Sandy, et al. have been there selling parts, building engines, fixing broken frames, etc. Without these guys we wouldn't have a sport, so for me, I do think they deserve to exert added influence.

This is all not to say that I always agree with a position some of the pros might take, like on the Honda proposal for instance, but I never lose sight at the difference between my commitment to the sport and theirs.

In the end this sport is just a hobby for me. For those that make their living at it, it is a lot more.

Bill, I have to disagree. I think every FF and CF driver should have equal "vote" and the class should be driven by them. The "pro's" choose to make their living here. Maybe the pro's are more in tune to the core of the class because we deal with it on a daily basis but shouldn't give anymore influance over the class and it's rules structure. I seem to be cought in the middle as a "pro" and someone that actively races a FF. Speaking as a prep shop owner, It really makes no difference to me weather the Honda or Ford proposal goes through or not. My P/L sheet would not change enough to notice even if every FF on the face of the earth vanished tomorrow. Now if every vintage sports car vanished, there would be a very nice DB6 in the FF classifides real quick! I work on FF/CF's because I like the break from my street car and vintage work. I'm pretty good at it and I like to see people have fun with these cars as I have for 25 years. If the knowledge I gained over the last 25 years helps support the class in the form of helping people get and stay on track, it helpes me as an active FF driver. More cars on track means, more cars to beat! As I have stated before, there's one FF I help with but do no in shop prep on that most people know and I don't make a penny doing it. I do it for fun and as repayment for him being the best man at my wedding.

This ain't bout the money!

[Bill Steele]

Well, ah, Mike, I was kind of talking about guys that actually do have influence...

[R. Pare]

My understanding is that the PS110 is exactly the same motor that FF UK has run for a few years in 160 HP trim, except for maybe a new intake and exhaust manifold, ECU map, etc.

If correct, this engine will not be easily shoehorned into the vast majority of existing chassis, and as such will require the bespoke chassis designs.

The question then that no one can answer right now is whether or not those new chassis will have an advantage over the Kent cars, or if it will be at a disadvantage.

I have a couple of Brit FF customers looking into what the experience over there has been, and will hopefully have some sort of answer in a couple of days - they for sure found that new designs were needed for that engine in 160 HP trim.

As for whether or not manufacturers should or do have any more sway over the rules than the average FF owner, the answer is both Yes and No - we have only one vote per club member as do all club members, but when it comes to sorting through the technical end of things to weed the BS from the truth, we most likely do have more sway than the average member.

[TimW]

Well, my long response to Tim, Stan and anybody else with a box of popcorn won't be that long winded. Erik Shep wrote a better letter/post than I could ever come up with in the other Honda thread. Jay Novak has explained what I think Fords position in the class will be as well or better than I could.
What I will add is that with the "proposal" we have seen how much it can fracture the class of FF as we know it. We saw it last year over a minor issue like a set of wheels. What the "proposal" has done is brought us to the next level and it's an ugly sight. I think we all need to sit back and look at what it has and will do to us as a pretty close knit group. The "proposal" is just a preview of the division that will face us in the future if Formula Ford becomes a multi manufacturer class. Parity cost's money and that's exactly what we don't want or this whole issue would never have come to see the light of day. Parity or lack there of, in my experiance comes in two forms. It is either a true fact or it is perceived. The two share one common trait. They are argued over in an endless battle. This is not what Formula Ford needs to move the class forward. What the class needs is incentive for young people to want to either use it as a stepping stone to some other higher formula or to have the best time racing in the class for the next 25 years or so. I just don't see any new engine as being the magic pill. I am not "anti new" wheather it be Honda, Ford or any other manufacturer. I am "anti division" within the class. I am not happy about a new Ford engine in the class but if a "modern" engine is what some people want, then I think that option should be open to them. I think Ford is in a much better position to give both "sides" what they want. As Jay Novak has tried to explain, I think we would end up with parity being a non issue as Ford would be competing with themselves in any engine war. General consensus here is that anybody wanting a "modern" engine is more than happy at knowing their "modern" engine will be down on power compared to a front row kent. If that's true then a proper evaluation can be done by multi engine builders on the Duratec that is overseen by the CRB. A map and restrictor can be set (same numbers proposed by Honda) and then a rule be placed that no comp adjustments will be made to the Duratec. This keeps the Kent "side" happy as there's no threat of obsolence and it also keeps the modern engine "side" happy with the idea of an affordable long life engine. The people that we need to figure out how to get started in Formula Ford will then have a choice as to which is best for their program. We have the power as a group to make the parity game a non issue if this is done correctly. Ford is the only manufacturer that opens that door to us. It's what we make of the opportunity as a united group that counts in the future of Formula Ford.

Stan, Tim, and anybody else. I hope this is acceptable as we need to stop the fighting and move forward.

Thanks, Mike

.

So, Mike I'm wholeheartedly in agreement that I don't want your GT3 parity nightmare to end up in FF. That undoubtedly will kill the class and is contrary to the spirit of the class. I do believe in a single engine formula being best, but my definition of single engine is the grandfathered one and the modern one, otherwise we are stuck in 1972.

However, the premise of your entire argument is that there is parity now among kents and any new engine is going to substantially disrupt the equilibrium. I can fully understand how from your perspective of being in FF for 25 years that, yep, parity is achieved amongst kents you see. You've said yourself you have a significant investment in the Kent you don't want to lose. Part of that investment was the machinations of part testing permutations to find the good head to go with the good intake to go with the good carb that was prevalent 'back in the day.' These are the same MO that we all mock the SpecMiata guys as having to go through to run up front. But you're fully optimized and most everyone else around you who has been in FF for any significant amount of time are as well so it looks like stability. There is a perception of equity because the optimizations have been completed and are stable for the majority of the long time competitors.

The new drivers who realize that to truly run up front with you guys write the big check to buy their way to parity with you and really with no upper bound cost limit of how much it will take to get there. The others who are new to the class are at an incredible disadvantage as they get your cast off parts, which run fine, but in reality are not going to create the numbers you guys are seeing. From their perspective there is no parity at all. A new modern engine allows new drivers to know going in they can get as good an engine as any on the grid for a known upper bound cost. That keeps me interested in racing when knowing its seat time and setup development that has me mid pack.

There are a lot of non-sensical ways to spend money going motor racing, but optimizing your Kent to be as good as any on the grid is really the peak in logic defying budgeting in racing for this century. I have run race cars with engine lease programs...it was idyllic racing...we never mucked with the engine. We focused 100% on the driver & the setup knowing we had as good a motor as anyone out there and the racing was fantastic. We ran the motor to mileage and then replaced it. Plug and play. To the same extent, the Zetec now apparently emulates that to a great degree. Why would this be a bad thing for FF? That was essentially what FF was supposed to be. It wasn't an engine development class...no professional driver I've worked with ever contributed to the teams engine development program other than saying 'more, please.' If FF is supposed to be about driver development why do I have to lap my valves every 10 hours to go fast? Its an antiquity that I am confident I will tire of sooner rather than later.

Mike you have a division in the class right now. Those who've been doing it for 20 years like yourself who will eventually disappear as many of you are approaching the average age of a FV driver, those who 'caught up' with those 20 year heros by biting the bullet to get a good kent, those who are new and really on the fringe of the class having not made the 'investment' you have, and those truly on the outside who say the f#$K with it and go race somewhere else because the kent mountain is too high to climb.

So, if there is no parity now what will adding an engine that has a very small statistical band of variances really harm if it lands within the wider statistical band of variance of the Kent? Sure, Honda will want it to win but the best setup and driven car will win in the end like they do now across the spectrum of kent outputs. Honda will get their wins, as will the kent if the parity is good enough. And the Honda will fit in our current cars whereas the Duratec appears will not. The experience of the Zetec seems to show that for a small number of options racing at the same weight parity can get good enough. Lets not let perfect be the enemy of good.

Tim

[TimW]

And BTW, does anyone know what the BoD decided this weekend and is privy to share?

[Trhoades]

Wow,
Pretty amazing some of the off handed comments made on this topic, some are flat out lies, just to promote your personnel investments. Some of us are making a joke of the FF community. I also like the guys posting how to fix FF but thet have never been in the class. Sorry guys but its becoming nonproductive. I thought Shep's letter shares the same opinions as I do, but I have to ask this. Do you think Ford really cares about the US market or are they concerned that if Honda gets in FF in the US that it would get their foot in the door for the bigger picture Europe. I'm a Nat/Reg guy on a limited budget, if I can go to a more modern engine that will save me money and allow me more track time then bring it on. JMO..Todd

[stonebridge20]

Tim, I'm stepping out of the subject. I have added too much to the fighting on here and it really has made me sick to my stomach. I don't want to fight with you or Stan or anybody else on here. The only thing I have tried to do here is give my opinion on what I thought was best for the class the only way I know how to. I have said my peace and I just can't think of any more to add. All I can say is I hope the decisions made in FF in the near future work out for the best and everybody can be happy with those decisions. If there ends up being an engine war, I will not be part of it. I will retire from SCCA and probably go vintage racing. After 25 years, I race for fun with my one and only 114Hp Kent engine that hasn't seen a new part since 2004 except rings, bearings and gaskets. When it's not fun anymore, I'll find something else to do. I feel the fun tank starting to run dry!

Good luck, Mike





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[level3]

What ever happened to BUY AMERICAN?
I know, I know, the FIT is probably made somewhere in the US BUT where do you think the profits end up.

[Stan Clayton]

Sometimes these sight gags just write themselves...

[se7en]

The I.D. plate on my 2009 FIT states it was assembled in Japan. The window sticker states 100% of the parts were also made in Japan.
Ken

[Daryl DeArman]

What ever happened to BUY AMERICAN?
I know, I know, the FIT is probably made somewhere in the US BUT where do you think the profits end up.

In the shareholder's portfolios, no matter where they reside.

[Matt King]

Maybe GM will submit a proposal, since we all own a piece of that.

[Wren]

It was refreshing to not see it, but I was wondering when the xenophobia comments would come up.

In the shareholder's portfolios, no matter where they reside.

Well, a lot of the profits end up being reinvested in Honda manufacturing facilities in America. I've had a lot more of my friends employed by foreign auto makers than domestic.

[Matt King]

The irony of the Made in America comment is that the majority of FF chassis were NOT!

[VehDyn]

In the news this week:

"Production of the Honda Fit soon could move from Japan to North America as the automaker tries to counteract the increasing strength of the yen against the dollar."

Possibly move to the Ohio plant outside of Columbus. Pick one up on the way to Mid Ohio.

[stonebridge20]

The irony of the Made in America comment is that the majority of FF chassis were NOT!

Only the good one's!

[Brian]

As far as I know, the kent was a British Ford engine from the get-go and was never produced in the US. So isn't the whole Buy America thing kind of irrelevant?

Brian

[Matt King]

Wasn't a version used in early Pinto? Probably still produced in the UK though.

[Mark_Silverberg]

A 1600 cc engine was available in the 1971 and 1972 pinto. It was also available in the 1970 and perhaps 71 Capri. The head on that 1600 was not the head used in FF - only the block. A FF legal uprated engine was never sold in any Ford Vehicle in the US. I suspedt the Capris had the cortina engine. The block casting for the uprated is 711M which means it was first produced in 1971.

I believe the 1600 came from england (Dagenham engine plant) and the 2000 came from Cologne engine plant for the Pinto.

The first modern 4 cylinder engine manufactured by Ford in the US was the 2.3 litre 4 cylinder introduced in 1974 in the Pinto and Mustang II. I believe this was first produced at the Lima, Ohio engine plant and later in Tabute Brazil.