Ford proposal to the SCCA

[Jnovak]

Today I was informed by Ford Racing that an important plan is coming together at Ford Racing and that Brian Wolfe, the Director of Ford Racing had sent a formal letter of intent to the SCCA informing the SCCA that Ford would support Formula Ford with a significant contingency fund as well as engine supply and technical support. I want everyone in the Formula Ford community to have the opportunity to read the actual letter & to make certain that all of you understand that Ford Racing is very serious about their future involvement in Formula Ford. Please read the letter from Brian Wolfe and give it the serious consideration it deserves. If approved there will be a new modern low cost engine for use in Formula Ford as well as a new Kent cylinder block that will be available next year.

I personally ask that you do not discard the over 40 year involvement of Ford Motor Company in Formula Ford in the USA & around the world. The continued involvement in Formula Ford in the US is very much at stake when all of you make your decisions about your future engine use in Formula Ford. I also ask that all of us, as members of the SCCA, try to cultivate a better future relationship with Ford Racing. If we do I am certain that their involvement will be as absoluely serious as it is in England and Europe. Perhaps in the future we can send our best aspiring young Formula Ford drivers to the Formula Ford Festival and perhaps that Festival might even be in the United States.

I know this is the news many of you have been waiting for so please read & let the BOD know ASAP.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[sc94]

Where in the letter does it mention the "new modern low cost engine" you reference? What would that engine be?

Kirk

[S Lathrop]

This reply reminds me of some one offering the sleeves off their vest.

[Greg Mercurio]

Interesting, but not exactly dinner.

[Jnovak]

Any letter to anyone from a Director of Ford Motor Company is serious. It takes time for a big company to make things happen. Given the chance Ford will make it happen.

The discussions about engine was verbal with Ford today. The plan is to use the new Duratec 1600 that will be used in the new US Fiesta. The new kent block is in the works & the assignment has been given to Mose Nowland so you know for CERTAIN it will happen. Mose is the best in the business.

I must have missed it, does Honda have a contingency plan?

Thanks ... Jay

[John LaRue]

Was this just a cover letter and is there a detailed proposal that is missing from the post? If so, can you please post the rest of the documents? I too see no reference or details about a "new engine" just a revised block.

If they were doing the block for the industrial application anyway they have offered nothing special to SCCA. I am all for the new supply of blocks and think that combined with the Honda will really bring the class to the front; this is looking up from my perspective.

John

[rmccown]

The implied threat stands out like its in 72 point bold font.

[-pru-]

My two favorite lines from the letter:

The recent news that SCCA is considering an alternative engine package from Honda, quite candidly, got our attention.

In return for the commitment outlined above we respectively ask the SCCA Board of Directors and its members to keep Formula Ford an all-Ford series.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I never thought the class would ever see this type of manufacture involvement (i.e. pissing war!).

[thomschoon]

As a newbie I have stayed out of the debate but I do have a horse in the race as my Kent needs a rebuild which will require sleeves & pistons. I think Ford could do more then just a letter, they have the resources to provide a viable proposal not just plead for support, even VW provides support for FV so they could have done a little research and provided that commitment so we could make a decision based on comparing real/live proposals not just promises. If we look at this as a business decision we have a firm viable proposal from Honda and a letter of promises from Ford, I think Honda as done their homework and should get the nod.

[Tom Valet]

I am sure it is in Ford's best interest to "keep Formula Ford an all Ford class," given the free positive association Ford has derived from the FF name in the USA for the past 30 years while it completely ignored the class.

At this point, given Ford's conduct for all those years, we as the FF community should not give one second of thought to what is in Ford's best interest.

The real question is, what is in the best interests of the FF class and its racers? Honda's proposal based on an already up and running modern engine installed and running in an FF? Or Ford's verbal promise to offer a modern alternative engine sometime in the future, until which Ford will produce some more 40 year old blocks.

Let the arguing begin!

I cannot imagine how SCCA is going to handle things at this point. Table the Honda proposal? Wait for input from membership on Ford's proposal? Wait for Ford to put its verbal promise of a new engine in writing? Dismiss Ford's verbal promises and rule on a firm offer from Honda?

[cooleyjb]

revised "Kent" block

Revised What will that mean exactly? Sorta the same? Performance advantage/longevity in the new one might mean a required changeover for the runoffs guys.

Sweet, after 40 years of minimal to no involvement they offer 5 whole years of undisclosed contingency money.

IMO, Ford still isn't getting it.

[racer27]

With the Honda proposal, I have a pretty reasonable sense if what it will cost to convert my Citation to a modern fuel enjected engine. I know approx HP, how long it will be produced and supported, how it fits in my car. I can't make the same determination from what i've read in the Ford Letter.

The Kent blocks may have some appeal to many, but not to me. At least not yet. Depends on details, price, timeline, how it will impact cost of a new engine.

Contigency, again, I'll need details. It is SCCA only? Nationial only?

A FF rep at Ford? Not sure of value. Depends on what business plan he executes on. What resources are availiable to him?

More details in near future would help in making an assessment. I look forward to this inforamation becoming availiable.

[RobLav]

Honda provides an engine, cost breakdowns, etc in a good proposal. Ford offers a letter. BFD.

Perhaps competition between engine suppliers will bring costs down... let it happen. Leave them both on the table.

Oh yeah - I missed the implied threat... we'd need to rename the class.

[R. Pare]

If approved there will be a new modern low cost engine for use in Formula Ford as well as a new Kent cylinder block that will be available next year.

The letter mentions no such thing - only that new Kent blocks will be available. BFD

Basicly worth about as much as a warm bucket of spit at this point without any details on whatever the new engine might be, IF there really is one to be offered that won't obsolete all of the Kents out there.

I must have missed it - Ford has done WHAT for U.S. FF for the last 30 years, and now, at the last minute, wants you to drop the Honda proposal in favor of an total unknown?

[Jnovak]

I understand the many concerns voiced on this forum. Racers want action & they want it now. However Honda has been working on their proposal for nearly 18 months (this from a Honda rep at the June Sprints). I personally find it VERY hard to believe that Honda spent around $150K on this project (also from the same Honda rep) without some sort of go ahead from someone within the club, big companies do not spend that kind of change without some expectation of return. It also might have helped for someone with authority within the SCCA to approach Ford management looking for help in the last few years. Please also remember that in 2000 when I was at Ford Racing & went to the SCCA looking for support for a new engine that I was told that a new engine was not needed. It goes both ways.

Now admittedly Ford is late to the party but they have started to put a proposal together for a new Duratec engine & a new Kent block, & PS the new Kent block is very much an SCCA member instituted effort period. Ford still builds MANY industrial engines right now & they would much rather supply a new engine kit from current production to replace older Kent engines, think about it from a business perspective.

Please give Ford a bit of time to put this together. These projects do not happen overnight, Do you think Honda did their deal in a couple of weeks? The main issue is that the SCCA now has a committment to support Formula Ford from Ford Motor Company.

A new Duratec engine is being shipped from Europe & will be in Dearborn in a couple of weeks & when the engines start being built in the US next year they will be much easier to get & the current exchange rates will not be a problem. The new Kent block tooling will take many many months to happen but there will be a supply of Kent blocks for the future.

BTW, how much do you guys think it costs to create new engine casting tooling for an old engine block like the Kent. There are no longer any drawing available etc. Everything is now done in CAD & will have to be reverse engineered. Well I can tell you that the tooling costs alone will be between $125K & $150K so if they can sell us 200 blocks at any price they will not make a penny period.

I am curious as to what the Formula Ford competitors actually want from Ford? I am serious, please let me know and as an informal liason between the Club & Ford I will communicate the info to them.

Thanks for your time ... Jay Novak

[Mark_Silverberg]

A promise of action without a statment of delivery date for the new blocks means nothing. I sincerely hope and think it is a good idea if Ford puts the Kent engine block back into production. I will be convinced when I actually see a new block.

It will be very interesting to see if Ford's new engine proposal has a manditory phase in process like in spec racer.

Long on promises - short on details. I would much rather have a well thought out example vehicle from a low level engineer that a letter from Director.

[TimW]

The main issue is that the SCCA now has a committment to support Formula Ford from Ford Motor Company.

Wow. That and a 'til death do us part' should put all our divorce lawyers onto the dole forever.

[SteveLevin]

I thought there wasn't a shortage of parts now?

I can say that Ford being involved won't bring me into FF unless it brings the engine costs down significantly for someone that isn't that good like me. Contingencies for the top folks doesn't mean anything to me...huge rebuild bills are what keeps me out of FF.

Steve

[Wren]

I personally ask that you do not discard the over 40 year involvement of Ford Motor Company in Formula Ford in the USA & around the world.

Ford hasn't had 40 years of involvement in Formula Ford. They have done exactly dick for quite a while.

The discussions about engine was verbal with Ford today.

I must have missed it, does Honda have a contingency plan?

I will not be revising my letter to the BOD because Ford had a phone conversation with a former employee.

Honda's proposal is much more concrete.

We don't know that Ford will exist as they currently are in 5 years. They are certainly bleeding money right now.

Yes, Honda has a contingency plan to pay for testing and parking at least. There is a thread about it. More importantly, Honda has a concrete proposal.

The rules making process hasn't changed a bit. Honda has shown Ford how to present a professional, competent proposal. Ford can follow in their footsteps.

Revised What will that mean exactly? Sorta the same? Performance advantage/longevity in the new one might mean a required changeover for the runoffs guys.

This sounds like something that needs to be brought in through the rules change process. If it isn't the same block and doesn't have the approved part numbers, then the builders can't just start putting them together and shipping them to customers.

[Rick Kirchner]

Big companies have staffs that excel in writing proposals. They ought to be able to crank out a reasonable one over a long weekend. Hell, just dust off the Focus Midget program for starters. They also have bureaucracies that excel in slowing things to a crawl.

Compared to what they spend on ANY other aspect of motorsports, the whole FF effort will be less than their hospitality budget at a monster truck event.

If you are late to the game you have to work harder, not ask for more time with promises. Unless I had an obviously far better deal in my back pocket I'd be ashamed at putting something like that out there - it's an admission that you really can't compete on merits, and are playing on the history and the brand - their neglected and under fire brand.

History is a good teacher, it's primary lesson is not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Maybe Ford needs to learn that the hard way. Although I don't have a dog in the FF fight, I've been critical of Ford's lack of involvement ever since I bought my FC (check out the scoop!). I've also been critical of the SCCA cozying up to corporate sponsors, because it always seems to bring conflicts of interest. But stirring up the Mazda/Ford/Nissan/Toyota/Subaru pot with a little more competition couldn't be all bad.

[ric baribeault]

the first thing FMC should do is read this frigging thread. they just don't get it! i feel like i'm being talked to (at?) by someone with the IQ of our former president.

[Art Smith]

so where is a copy of the Ford letter; we all read. getting excited about someones interpretation/view/slant/... of something that was leaked to them over the phone doesn't seem constructive.

ditto the current version of the "unsolicited proposal" that's causing all the fuss!

facts and data are a far more rational approach to making decisions than emotions based on leaks

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[TimW]

so where is a copy of the Ford letter; we all read. getting excited about someones interpretation/view/slant/... of something that was leaked to them over the phone doesn't seem constructive.

uh, first post of this thread.

ditto the current version of the "unsolicited proposal" that's causing all the fuss!

In Fastrak, and published on SCCA.com prior to Fastrak being released to provide more time for review & feedback...way back on 8/11/2009, the details were out less than three weeks after the summary press release...

http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx...0&archive=true

[stonebridge20]

The argument of "where has Ford been for 35 years" is just plain funny. Did anybody ever go to Ford and ask for anything in the past 35 years? The answer is no. When Jay went to SCCA with a Ford proposal in 2000, SCCA sent him packing!

Honda "investing" $150-200K into the FF "project" and we should vote the engine in because we feel like we "owe" them something? Bull$hit! Honda had to pay the salary's of a hand full of ex-champcar engineers they didn't want to loose to some other company. Honda told them to find something to do and they set out to conquer the daunting task of putting a production engine in the back of a 20 year old Formula Ford.

The Honda proposal itself was admitedly rushed and is full of holes. The "data" is verified by one single source. The source is an employee of Honda.

Some of the most vocal proponents of the Honda proposal are also some of the same people that would profit from the engine being voted in or don't even have a direct link to the FF class!

I think what it comes down to is since we have been slaves of Ford for 35 or so years while they have made millions from the free advertising we have provided them by being forced to put up with a substandard and antiquated engine that there is not one single part left for in the entire country and even if you did find that lump of gold part, would cost your first born to have installed by an engine builder and then blow up the minute you install it in your 20+ year old car or even while still in the shipping crate, that we could all hold our pee pee for a few more months and probably not pi$$ our pants! Honda's not going anywhere any time soon. Where would they go? NASA? Please entertain me with something better than that!

[Greg Mercurio]

Some of these posts are unintentionally hilarious. The suggestion that Ford has made even a nickel on the FF marque is downright ludicrous on it's face.

How many 30 second FF spots have ever been played on any media source in the last 40 years? How many slavering customers ran into a Ford showroom after they left an SCCA race and just had to have the car that had the same lump in the back. How many Ford customers outside the current and past SCCA members have ever HEARD of the SCCA?

Nobody has been a slave of Ford for any length of time. You choose to race in this class of your own free will, no slave-master with a whip forces you to race.

The new block, if it IS manufactured and sold is not 40 years old, it's a 40 year old design. Just like the Chevy small block, just like the Ford small block, and on and on. If it gets made, it will be a new block, and it will probably incorporate a few modern things like improved metallurgy, improved manufacturing methods, and improved understanding of the stresses inherent in an unbalanced 4 cyl design. So stop, please, calling it a 40 year old block.

I hope Ford does make a new block. I hope Ford and Honda duke it out with the BOD with a Duratec answer to the Honda FIT. The only losers in the deal is the folks with a car and an engine(s) that will have to put up with rule$ creep.

[Dennis Valet]

Mike - you act as if Ford dropped the class completely, when in fact they have been giving support to the class in other countries. In Europe and Australia they are modern engine cars with a wide assortment of brand new chassis. Not only is it a viable entry level class, but it is still well recognized as the first step a serious racer should take in Europe. If Ford had ignored the class all over the world for all these years, I'd agree.... but as usual Ford's overseas divisions are wildly more in touch with their consumers.

[TimW]

The Honda proposal itself was admitedly rushed and is full of holes. The "data" is verified by one single source. The source is an employee of Honda.

Wasn't the data gathered by Quicksilver, who are not employees of Honda? And where again exactly is the Ford data? If the honda proposal is perforated, what is a plea & implied threat from ford? Stick to the facts Mike, or at least substantiate your claims of where you feel the holes are.

Some of the most vocal proponents of the Honda proposal are also some of the same people that would profit from the engine being voted in or don't even have a direct link to the FF class!

And yet, don't you make at least a portion of your income as a driver coach & race prep shop who's primary assets are drawn from the knowledge utilized going forward with status quo?

Mike Agnifilo
Stonebridge Sports and Classics ltd
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development

You deserve to make a living Mike, but its inappropriate to call others out for seeing the Honda as a business opportunity for them when you don't exactly stand as an independent party. Everybody profits from my racing...the hotel, sunoco, Elite Engines, etc. I do not expect people to work for free on my little formula ford program out of the goodness of their hearts...

Tim

[2BWise]

What does this mean for the Honda proposal, or more specificially the BODs decision.

Will the Honda and Ford proposals be voted separately?
Will the introduction of a Ford proposal stall the decision on the Honda proposal?

Ford does not own the class and it is my opinion that both proposals should be voted on separately. I fear that the promise from Ford will either force a delay on the Honda decision or a straight denial of the Honda proposal. I'm fairly new to SCCA but I would think they would hurt their own reputation if they down judged each proposal on their own merits.

[Tom Valet]

Some of these posts are unintentionally hilarious. The suggestion that Ford has made even a nickel on the FF marque is downright ludicrous on it's face.

How many 30 second FF spots have ever been played on any media source in the last 40 years? How many slavering customers ran into a Ford showroom after they left an SCCA race and just had to have the car that had the same lump in the back. How many Ford customers outside the current and past SCCA members have ever HEARD of the SCCA?

Nobody has been a slave of Ford for any length of time. You choose to race in this class of your own free will, no slave-master with a whip forces you to race.

So Greg, you dont think that the name "Formula Ford" has carried with it any positive associations for Ford over all these years? Then why does Ford all of a sudden give a rats *** about the class now that another manufacturer is stepping up to the plate if the name is meaningless to them?

Nobody here said one word about Ford making millions of dollars off of the FF name, we only point out that the class has carried Ford's name for 40 years and always in a positive and beneficial way, yet Ford chose to do nothing to recognize or support the class for all those years.

Now that Honda is in the picture and the free association for Ford is over, all of a sudden they want everyone to stop the bus and let them get on board.

Tom

[jimj11]

I don't have a horse in this race but think back 1 year ago and you had know choices fastforward a year and now you have a possible two choices . Take a deep breath and look at both and make the best choice for the long term. Choices are good.

[Tom Valet]

Jim, ideally what you suggest is what we should do. However, the Honda proposal is already up for a vote by SCCA with a planned implementation for next year, which starts in less than 3 months.

The only way we can "chill" is if Honda's proposal is taken off the table and shelved for at least a year, on the verbal "promise" from Ford that it will provide an alternative engine. I am not so sure that is what is best for the class. What if Honda pulls the plug because SCCA tables their proposal?

So there is a lot at stake and nobody can just sit back and chill as much as we would like to.

[jimj11]

I agree there is a lot at stake. Is Ford aware of the 3 month time frame ? Can they fastrac there program? Just make sure we compare apples to apples.

[PRS56]

As I said back in July after the 40th, I thought that this was a done deal for the FIT to be approved or Honda would never have spent the time, money or generated the press releases (Speed channel, NSSN etc.) if they were'nt given a nod from above.
I'm sure the BOD is probably sh---g themselves as to how to get out of this mess without egg on their face. If memory serves, the annoucement on the FIT should be due any day now.
Whatever camp you're in on this issue, I don't see the BOD having any other option but to table the decision until Fords proposal can get a thorough review or until Apex reaches the 1 million mark in member posts.
Greg Kokolus
NCF #30

[thomschoon]

Ford either knew or should have known the deadline, seems like they missed it and they need to wait another year for their version of a rules change, Honda complied and should get a fair hearing. Heck if they actually cared you think they would have done SOMETHING at the 40th as they knew about the Honda proposal by then.

[Wren]

I'm sure the BOD is probably sh---g themselves as to how to get out of this mess without egg on their face. If memory serves, the annoucement on the FIT should be due any day now.

I don't think the BOD has any worries about egg on their face. The rules making procedure hasn't been bent or broken for Honda. What do you mean by that?

Ford's letter about how they might do something, at some point, someday, doesn't have to impact the Honda proposal at all. The Honda proposal specifically says that it does not exclude other manufacturers from submitting their own proposals.

Ford either knew or should have known the deadline, seems like they missed it and they need to wait another year for their version of a rules change, Honda complied and should get a fair hearing. Heck if they actually cared you think they would have done SOMETHING at the 40th as they knew about the Honda proposal by then.

Exactly. Honda followed the rules and got their proposal in on time. I don't see why they should have to wait because someone else might do something.

[PCalhoun]

To me the Ford letter is a perfect example of why the domestic auto manufacturers have found it so difficult to compete in a global economy. They just don't get it. Do you realize the class has had more main stream publicity from Honda's well executed and professionally prepared PR blitz, than Ford has given domesticly in 25+ years? Rand & Beeler even got an article into the WSJ tied to the 40th...Ford nothing anywhere.

They work under the assumption that the consumer will buy their product out of loyalty alone, be it brand or nationality. They then find themselves making reactionary decisions, which are not well planned nor executed, in addition to coming to the party late.

Availability of new blocks will be a good thing, but at what cost? As has been mentioned by more than one person the cost to backwards engineer the block in CAD, make castings, and ultimately produce product will be a money losing deal for a big corporation like Ford. And ultimately what will this save when you have one of those rebuilds where the pin was pulled? I'm guessing nothing. It will just be that you have a new block, which was easily found, not one sourced from a salvage yard by your professional engine builder of choice at a cost of $500-1500 currently.

I agree w/ John LaRue, was this just a cover letter to a more in-depth proposal? If not the discussion will be pretty short by the BOD and Ford can make their detailed pitch for 2011. Yes, the BOD meets this w/e to discuss final 2010 rules proposals and Ford has missed the deadlines set forth in the GCR.

[openwheel]

Wasn't the vote on the Honda FIT inclusion for 2010 last night?????? I thought that is what one or two BOD members said a week or two ago.

[stonebridge20]

[quote]

Wasn't the data gathered by Quicksilver, who are not employees of Honda? And where again exactly is the Ford data? If the honda proposal is perforated, what is a plea & implied threat from ford? Stick to the facts Mike, or at least substantiate your claims of where you feel the holes are.

Who wrote the check to QS when the Honda engine came off the dyno?
Read the proposal from Honda. There are engine specs and part numbers missing through out it. I don't think there's another class within SCCA that the CRB would even look at a proposal with so much unpublished "info". Is there a deck height? Is there a combustion chamber volume? What rod length? What wrist pin center line? What piston height? What piston weight? Is the engine going to be sealed or open? It sure leaves a lot to be determined after an "approval"

And yet, don't you make at least a portion of your income as a driver coach & race prep shop who's primary assets are drawn from the knowledge utilized going forward with status quo?

It really doesn't matter what engine/chassis combo I'm working with. I'll prep,engineer and coach the $hit out of it. If you think I'm scared of trying to figure out what a FF with a Honda engine in it needs to be quick, your very wrong. BTW: I'll send you all my pay stubs from JT. Expect an empty envelope in the mail soon. Family takes care of family usually at a financial lose and is happy to do it!



[

QUOTE]
You deserve to make a living Mike, but its inappropriate to call others out for seeing the Honda as a business opportunity for them when you don't exactly stand as an independent party. Everybody profits from my racing...the hotel, sunoco, Elite Engines, etc. I do not expect people to work for free on my little formula ford program out of the goodness of their hearts...

Tim, don't you think I would make money if one or more of my customers asked me to do an engine conversion in their car? Trust me. As a prep shop owner, I'll make more money if the Honda proposal or any "other" engine proposal goes through. Your forgetting that I race my own car in FF. My only focus here is as a current FF driver and what I think is best for the class as someone that has been around as an active driver for 25 years. Do I make money from FF? Yes, about enough to pay the shop electric bill for a year. When I started racing FF's 25 years ago, I had no money and didn't know squat. People helped me for free. I didn't forget that and never will. I probably spend more time helping FF/CF guys for free than actual billed hours because it's the one class I love and without it I probably wouldn't be here on apex having so much fun.

[mike g.]

Jay - what's your relation/involvement to Ford as a company? Employee? Racer? etc?

[PRS56]

Wren:
You're right in suggesting that no rules have been broken as it relates to the governance process in the issue of the Honda proposal.
My suggestion that the BOD may be worried about "egg on their face" stems from the fact that you have a vocal group of FF owners who are divided on the subject of the FIT.
Within days of making their annoucement, Ford re-enters the fray and complicates the process.
This is very much a damm if you do and damm if you don't type of situation.
Whatever Fords intentions the BOD cannot afford to send them packing without fair review.
They are too powerful of a corporate entity.
Greg Kokolus
NCF #30