Great. Fuel cell leak

[RussMcB]

Prep for the ARRC was looking good. Went to run the engine today to test an electronics change and the low pressure fuel pump was noisy. No gas in the cell. None. Nada. Ah, that explains the gas I've been smelling (I thought it was something else - another project). The 1.5 gallons of gas I finished the race with last month was gone. No puddle. Must have evaporated.

I removed the cell (pain in the neck). Sure enough. Evidence of wetness in the floor pan. Can't really tell where the cell is leaking, but it must've been the very bottom since the cell was completely dry. Bummer. I had it pretty well protected, too. I guess it was just old age.

The good news (I guess), is this has happened to a lot of people, and Apexspeed searches bring up a few options. I've also located a place or two that may have new ones on the shelf.

The bad news - A new one is $1300+. I may send off the old one to be repaired, but that's expensive, too.

I need to come up with a creative money raising or cost saving plan quick or no ARRC for me this year. :-(.

[Mike B]

Starting the excuses early, eh McBride?

Seriously, I'm betting that my cell is on borrowed time so I'll be interested to see how this plays out. Let me know what I can do to help.

[S Lathrop]

I have repaired cells using super glue and something like micro spheres -- a filler. I used the mixture in the actual leak. I then covered the area with epoxy fuel tank patch. It will work well enough to do several races.

[drdestructo]

http://www.moto-delta.com/store/inde...oducts_id=3462

This stuff works great. Cheap, fast, easy.

Put a little bit of gas in the cel and let it sit. You will soon see the pinhole leak(s). Mark them, drain and let dry and go for it.

Russ Werner

[RussMcB]

Thanks. Will do a little more investigating tomorrow.

My cell looks bad in two areas. The very bottom has the rubbery covering flaking off, exposing the woven fabric. It's almost like sitting in gas ate it away. Also, the back side looks like it got pretty hot. Last year I added a large heat shield betwen the header and bulkhead, but I did run the car for a year before that.

When I did a frame-up build before the F1000 conversion, the cell looked perfect. Of course, an eyeball test isn't really a test at all.

At this point (after a few beers), I'm hoping I can do a good-enough repair for the ARRC, then do a proper repair during the Winter.

[glenn cooper]

Why do folks incessantly poo-poo the positive effects of a few/several beers?!!!!
Russ, same deal last year for me; had a temp repair made and it got me through the weekend real well. I only went with that option due to the closeness to race day.
I still have the old one and will definitely send it out this winter. I had a rivet head abrade a very small leak, the rest of the cell is what I like to call "supple".
I too smelled fuel, but there was no puddle. Evaporation for sure.
I like the Lathrop method mentioned above...
Do it!

GC

A proper heat shield is definitely a must have for F Thou.
For any newbs reading this thread, our exhausts are pointed straight at the cell, which is maybe 6 inches away and only seperated from all that radiant heat by the aluminum fuel cell enclosure, and some frame rails. With the original pre-converted car w/ automobile engine, exhaust is on the left or right side.

[glenn cooper]

Yo Russ, I had a night to sleep on it.
Basically I think you ought to send that thing off TODAY to one of the repair facilities mentioned in previous posts.
I don't think a patch job would be safe given your description and location of the damage.

My problem was a small abrasion/pinhole about half way up the cell.
Your's which sounds like some type delamination(?) combined with the damage at the very bottom of the cell sounds like a recipe for something not-so-good, and potentially more than warm...

I hereby rescind my previous pronouncement. Maybe someone on here has a spare cell for your year, or is in the middle of a rebuild and can loan you one for the event if your cell is deemed non-repairable or if it is and can't be done in a timely manner.

I don't think my spare cell (RF98 and up VD) will fit your chassis, but if it will, you are more than welcome to use it as a starting point for a repair.

Good Luck budrow, we need you at the ARRC!

GC

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Glenn.

I'm getting ready to do a test and see how bad it is.

For future reference, here is some good information I've found while searching:

Very good article mentioning several cell repair facilities (including Hartwig, Eagle, FFC):
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...y-repairs.html

How to find the leak(s):

To repair a bladder, the shop dries it thoroughly and does an initial visual inspection. The next step is a pressure test. The final test uses a white cotton sheet soaked in ammonia phenylthyline draped around the cell. Nearly pure alcohol is put into the cell and any leaking vapors cause telltale red spots on the sheet.

***************

Another similar method:

Take cell out, and drain. Scrub the livin bejesus out of the outside with paint thinner and then water and a good soluable degreaser - you want to get all the dirt off that might be masking pinhole leaks.

Rub a heavy coat of talcum powder on all the surfaces.

Put the cell in a haevy duty garbage bag. Make sure you plug the vent and outlet real, real well. The bag prevents the leaking fuel from evaporating away with no trace.

Tape the garbage bag around the neck of the cell. Fill the cell completely but put a rag around the neck to keep any spills from running into the bag. Cap the cell off and let it sit for a couple of days.

When you take the bag off there should be staining in the talcum around the leaks.

Still no leak? Drain and replace gas with water doped with radiator dye, then look for the leaks with a UV light.

Still no leak? It probably came from a spill or a leak at the outlet fitting/hose interface and ran back down the fitting into the cell container.

[RussMcB]

Some pictures.

First picture shows the bottom of the cell. My best guess (thanks to a PM and what I've read), my problem may have been caused my ethanol. I never pay much attention to the gas I buy, just premium (usually Shell).

Second picture shows the test I'm doing. I decided to just try paper towels to see if that'd work. No obvious initial leaks, but it needs to set a while.

Third picture shows my back up plan so I can still make the ARRC. :-).

[glenn cooper]

Russ McBride has kept his sense of humor!

I swear I have seen something like that jug in the past.
Ya know compared to what was state of the art back in the day, I'd say that jug was the bomb... (wait for it... wait...a little longer, wait...)

LITERALLY!

Hard to believe that garden variety Ethanol can do that, what when you consider folks in the past running rocket fuel type crap in their cells. Of course the cell manufacturers have warned in regard to this.
Then again I'm no chemist...

GC

When I had my issue last year, I just capped all the ends real tight, put it in a tub of water and looked for the bubbles.

[carnut169]

Russ, I had ATL make a cell for my car... believe the pattern should be about the same (?), and it was $900. Still a load of dough, but less than $1300.

IMHO, I'd rather skip a race than patch a fuel cell- even a super huge, killer one like the ARRC. The down-side is just not worth it.

[rickb99]

Hmmm,

I have a Reynard cell sitting here from our torn down chassis that I could loan you. The shape is very similar. But, the filler neck is on the other side. Fuel pick up for the pump is ON the filler neck also.

If there's any way you think it would work, let me know. I'll measure it and post some photos.

[RussMcB]

Thank you, Rick. Generous offer. Email sent.

Russ

[rickb99]

Russ,

Here's the cell I have with dimensions. As I said, it's sitting due to a rebuild going on and has been dry for a couple of months.

When removed from car, it had a serious coating of grime on it. But it cleaned up nice and seems in pretty good shape. We did have a piece of the foam plug up the fuel filter once. So the neck should be removed and the inside inspected to see if there are any more loose pieces down in there. Haven't done that yet.

NOTE:
The fuel pickup on the upper side of the fuel filler neck.

Hopefully it's smaller then yours and you could put some filler around it. Assuming, the neck on the 'wrong side' isn't a problem.

I notice your's has an extra 'jog' in the front. But, it the 5.5" top isn't a problem, you might be able to 'flatten' the front to wedge it into your space

[glenn cooper]

Rick, do you know how many gallons that thing holds?
Thanks for your offer to Russ from all of us FThou guys!
GC

[Stan Clayton]

Rick can afford to be generous, 'cuz they're in lock-down mode up there in Seattle.

You know Seattle, the four-season city...June, July, August and rain...

Rick, that's a fine offer...you da man!

[rickb99]

Rick, do you know how many gallons that thing holds?
Thanks for your offer to Russ from all of us FThou guys!
GC

No I don't know but you could calculate the volume based upon the dimensions if you're in to trigonometry

It does hold enough to get an FC through a 30 minute race AND have well over a gallon (maybe 2 left in it).

You know Seattle, the four-season city...June, July, August and rain...

LOL, Stan.

Actually, we start racing in March (okay we get snowed out some times). And run in to Sept. (sprints) with a final enduro in Oct (next weekend at Portland).

But for us open wheelers, it's April to Sept. (6 months) then we hybernate

P.S.
Russ contacted me via E-mail. Says it might work in desperation. He's going to make some phone calls on Monday then decide.

If somebody has a closer fit, lets get Russ on the TRACK at ARRC!!!

[glenn cooper]

Yo Rick,
Yeah just asking cause it looked like it might only hold 5 gallons, which coincidentally is how much fuel would be needed to run the race distance.

My RF99 holds 7 gallons, just makin' sure...

GC

[Daryl DeArman]

No I don't know but you could calculate the volume based upon the dimensions if you're in to trigonometry

More than 6 less than 7. Depends on bladder thickness and foam volume. 231 cubic inches to a gallon if you want to ballpark other possibilities.

[rickb99]

More than 6 less than 7.....

Yes that's sorta what I figured. When Jeff goes out for his long run to pre-grid, pace, 30 minute race and 2.25 mile cool down lap I fill it to where I can see the gas about 2 inches below the neck and he's good to go with plenty left at the end.

Just ONCE I let Jeff run out of gas, just once.

Remember the butterfly that flapped its wings and started the hurricane? Well, that was similar to the result of letting him run out of gas. A chain of events was started from that which resulted in his ONE spin of the year which led to a rear suspension sheer bracket failing at about 90 MPH (probably actually fractured for quite a while) at about the same turn on the track and he came in on the hook It could have been much, much worse at that track location.

The good news was it was minor <$500, he was okay and I learned a lesson. DON'T let the car run out of gas!

[RussMcB]

Hmm. One of my options is to fit a simpler (cheaper) fuel cell, such as an ATL FC140/FC150/FC152, but they are 4-5 gallons. By my calculations, I'd need about 5.5 gal to do the ARRC. I have an accumulator tank between the low pressure and high pressure pumps, adding a little volume. Might work. With Glenn in the race, there are bound to be a few cautions. :-).

[carnut169]

In the past I purchased an FC150 for my 96- it did not fit (don't remember why)... FYI.

[Charles Warner]

Russ,

I have had a fuel cell with multiple pin-hole leaks and two drilled holes (don't ask!) fixed overnight by an aviation fuel cell company, including patching, re-sealing and pressure testing. Cost was way less than buying a replacement.

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Charles. I found three places to call tomorrow. One is FFC in Memphis (4010 Pilot Drive, Suite 103). Is that who worked on yours?

[Charles Warner]

Yes, that's the group. I'm in Europe at the present or I'd facilitate. I would think you can find someone much closer to you. Any major airport should have a fscility who can do this. Make sure you explain you do not need certification. I have used these guys for a Lola S2 and both March F1 cells. As a price point, the March F1 cells, individually, were less than $350 each, and they are very convoluted. I seem to remember the Lola cell was less than $200 but that was many moons ago. Still better than a new unit.

[Mike B]

Russ,
Let me know how the repair route pans out. I'm ready to begin a fuel cell-ectomy when you say the word.

[formulasuper]

Hmm. One of my options is to fit a simpler (cheaper) fuel cell, such as an ATL FC140/FC150/FC152, but they are 4-5 gallons. By my calculations, I'd need about 5.5 gal to do the ARRC. I have an accumulator tank between the low pressure and high pressure pumps, adding a little volume. Might work. With Glenn in the race, there are bound to be a few cautions. :-).

Here's a couple of ideas you won't want to hear: You could start from pit lane after the pace lap to save fuel; or... I coulda fixed your cell for free if I hadn't already retired from our local aircraft defense contractor!

[RussMcB]

I got another great offer to lend a cell from Mike Holland.

I'm sending pictures to Eagle & others. Let's see what they say.

Thanks, all.

PS. Scott, yes I thought about the pit lane idea, along with a few others, like a big-ass fuel filter (or two) to add capacity. :-).

[sarrcford]

Racer Russ,

I had leaks in my fuel cell maybe 5 years ago. I had a big hassle with UPS when they smelled the faint smell of gas from the sealed box and refused to ship it. I was able to ship it to the Eagle fuel cell folks. It wasn't a quick, easy, cheap fix. Can't remember exactly, but it was along the $700-$900 route and took 4-8 weeks.
Let the pro earn his money on this one or buy a new one.

Rob

[RussMcB]

Looks like I'm in good shape, at least for the ARRC. Mike Holland and Mike Beauchamp both offered to let me borrow their VD fuel cell. Truly awesome offers and greatly appreciated. (And RickB99's, too)

I've had two places tell me my cell cannot be repaired. I'm not surprised. It's almost shocking how much of the rubbery covering flaked off of the bottom (80%). My hunch is that ethanol was involved. I'll pay more attention to that when I buy pump gas.

The folks at Eagle were very responsive, and they offered to make me a new one within 2-3 weeks, but it sounded like it'd be over $1,000. Brad Baytos seems to have the best price for a new ATL replacement. I've also gotten a heads up that if/when the GCR rules change, there is a company ready to offer cells at a better price. I'll look into that this Winter.

Bottom line: Apexspeed and its members are awesome!

[cparsons]

to this thread Russ but I have a VD cell I don't plan to use because I bought a different one. It looks alot like the pics. It's new, but old. been sitting on the shelf. I'll get some dimensions for you tomorrow. If it fits you can borrow it or buy it cheap. I may be able to ship it in the original VD box!

[Nardi]

Chuck Parsons you have a PM.
Thanks

[RussMcB]

I got an early Xmas package today from Mike Holland. His loaner cell looks great. I'm amazed how quickly he got it to me.

Chuck Parson sent pictures of his cell and it's very tempting, but looks just enough different that it would be a challenge to fit. Looks like it is for a wider Van Diemen (earlier model?).

[cparsons]

That's great new Russ. Of course we all expect you to have it installed already.
Just FYI - did a bit of research on the VD cell. It was the spare for a prototype sports racer. I bought it at a VD garage sale earlier this year? or was it last year?
anyway, great news and good luck!!