Rolling Starts Question

[Jim Garry]

Jim [who started this thread],
let me be candid, this is not meant as disrespect
1. are you expecting to be on pole shortly after you get back to racing?
2. the fellow's right about the comment "the mood of the starter".......if i'm in grid #5 i will make a point to watch a couple of starts of the earlier grids to see - about where on course the cars are when the starter shows the green - and how much of a jump the cars are getting......let me rephrase that.....just how much cheating the leaders are getting away with - and how bunched up the first three rows are or are not and perhaps the starter is waving it off for their irregular formation - is anybody going a little off track at the start so as to pass - and anything else i can learn from the start
3. the other fellow is right too - the race will start when the pole sitter or the starter decide, which ever comes first......meaning if a pole sitter clearly cheated the start but the starter didn't wave it off, you had a start and you shuold too if you're out on track at that moment.......so go for it and be looking for a wave off at the same time........good reason to have a spotter with a radio at the start.
4. yes, it's pretty clear on paper what the scca expects........who races on paper?
5. there is always a gray zone - sometimes it's wider than at other times due to who is enforcing the rules and the zone width can easily vary with the topic. but somebody is always ready to write a new rule that will fix "everything"

Thanks. That clears up everything.

[EYERACE]

repeat.........no matter what way one starts a race.

we are all asked to accept some of the odd things that happen simply with the catchphrase "that's racing"

.....and that's racing


let us all hope this is not the thread that goes on all winter........it was 95 in orlando today

[lancer360]

At VIR I was crewing for the polesitter. He was specifically instructed to maintain pace car speed after the pace car pulled off. The pace car would maintain the same speed down pit road. If he passed the pace car before the green was waved he would be black flagged. We had radios so he watched the pace car and I watched the starter.

Assuming the track layout permits this, that is a great idea.

[provamo]

mousecatcher: a million years ago as a novice racer in the CASC we used standing starts which were actually quite cool, they also inverted the starts based upon performance...really teaches one to watch your mirrors!

[Bill Steele]

mousecatcher: a million years ago as a novice racer in the CASC we used standing starts which were actually quite cool, they also inverted the starts based upon performance...really teaches one to watch your mirrors!

If I recall right, the Pro FF series a long time ago did standing starts. I think most people really enjoyed it, probably because it was different.

[rmccown]

Next up, Lemans style starts!

[Larry]

At Summit, we use start judges. Per the GCR, the decision of a start judge cannot be appealed. Typical infractions that they watch for are (1) pulling out of line, (2) jumping the green, and (3) leaving the racing surface. Do any of these as determined by the start judge, and you leave yourself open for a range of penalties. Typical penalties include reduction in finishing position (maybe 3 positions), stop-n-go, stop-n-go after 1 minute, loss of lap, etc.

I would recommend that Eyerace either adjust his attitude or carefully choose tracks known for using blind starters.

Larry Oliver

[iamuwere]

There are many here that have been around a lot longer than me, but in this decade I have never had or seen an aborted start. Even when as pole sitter I have been passed by rows of cars before the start has flown. It must be a regional thing.

[mousecatcher]

Next up, Lemans style starts!

[mousecatcher]

There are many here that have been around a lot longer than me, but in this decade I have never had or seen an aborted start. Even when as pole sitter I have been passed by rows of cars before the start has flown. It must be a regional thing.

our last race was an aborted start! we did a split start with one pace car leading the second group. something happened in the first group and the start was waved off.

[John Nesbitt]

There are many here that have been around a lot longer than me, but in this decade I have never had or seen an aborted start. Even when as pole sitter I have been passed by rows of cars before the start has flown. It must be a regional thing.

In the past couple of years, I have seen (and been in) a number of waved-off starts, up and down the eastern portion of the SCCA. I don't think it's a regional thing.

Keep in mind that waving off a start carries its own risks.

[Bob Wright]

Aborted starts happen all the time, both at the regional and national level; less so at the pro level (we had maybe one this season in our series). I don't think I've ever seen one in NASCAR Sprint Cup and Indycar (I think Indycar has some of the worst starts I've ever seen).

Standing starts: very difficult in alphabet soup races. We had them in the F2000 Export 'A' Series in Canada. They were great with little or no mechanical issues. I think standing starts are much more fair and safer because of the slower initial speeds.

[carnut169]

Hey, I've been out of this for a while, how should I handle the starts?

Oh, that's easy. Watch the races in front of yours and figure out how much cheating you can do.


Oh. Ok. Well what about the other rules? Do I need to follow them?


No! Well, maybe. Just figure out what rules you can get away with breaking first. In regionals they never tear down your engine, so do what you want there.


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Jim, it's simple. Maintain the speed set by the pace car if possible. If you need to speed up a bit to prevent bogging ok, but maintain a speed that allows the field to get in line behind you.

When you see the flag drop, go like hell.

That's the right way to do it.

[Paul LeCain]

Standing starts can make the 1st corner melee even worse than it is with rolling starts.

The cars farther back on the grid have more track available to accelerate and arrive at the 1st corner going faster than the cars at the front of the grid.

[EYERACE]

Larry - lighten up - remember in my thread I said I'm watching for how much of a jump on the start in another race might be occurring......so please address your personal comments regarding attitude to that other grid's racer.

[Larry]

If I misread you, I apologize, but it always bugs me when I get the feeling that someone wants to know how much they can cheat before they get caught. If that wasn't what you were looking for, I apologize.

Larry Oliver

[rickb99]

.... I don't think I've ever seen one in.... Indycar (I think Indycar has some of the worst starts I've ever seen).....

LOL, the last CART race at Portland International with (of course) Paul Tracy on the pole had THREE false starts. Once the 1st one occured, Tracy ran the back straight at about 170 MPH which really ruined the field for the next 2. I think they finally got on the radio to him and had a few 'words'.

Talk about a group of TICKED OFF Stewards!

Maybe since then they've just said.. the heck with it, let'um go.

[RussMcB]

PLEASE--especially if you are in the front 1/3 of an aborted start, accelerate smoothly and steadily until you are sure the back of the pack realizes there is no start. Then raise your arm and indicate that you're going to slow. Then slow gradually. I've seen too many examples of cars in front not accelerating and cars behind jumping the flag. It gets very ugly, very quickly.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

I'm on board with this great advice. In my 25 years I've seen a lot of crashes during starts - guys in the back unable to slow fast enough. Very heartbreaking for everyone involved.

Easily avoidable if the folks up front keep some good speed until it's safe to slow.

Thanks, Larry.

[azjc]

Next up, Lemans style starts!

Done that... CalClub @ Riverside in the early 80's. Have it on Super 8 some where. 3 hr enduro, lined the cars (all with fenders) up on the turn 9 banking (facing down the banknig ), driver in the car, co-driver ran across the track & turned on the kill switch... co-driver then stood up against the turn 9 wall as all the cars took off.

As I recall no one ran into anyone, clean start but I was prepaired to go into the dirt on drivers left if needed .

[mmi16]

As I recall from numerous SEDIV driver meeting....the Stewards instruction were .... do not pass the pace car on pit lane until the Green flys. Big problem with Formula cars and Pit lane divider walls....the pace car disappears when it goes beyond the start of the pit lane divider wall.

[FVRacer21]

I love all the different "opinions"......

Here's mine.

1. Standing starts work great with equal class cars - I think everywhere around the world except here they use them. Mixed classes are another thing.

2. The cars at the back ALWAYS have more speed getting into turn 1. At least with a standing start they are all starting from the same speed, how many rolling starts does the back rows hang back - very hard for a starting judge to see, usually only the first 4 rows or so get a penalty.

3. Good idea that the pace car should know what they are pacing. On some tracks it is racing to keep up with the PC, other times - like recently at NHMS, during pace car race laps, the Vees were in first gear! We never use first except to leave the false grid!

4. Does the polesitter get to play some games? Less than in past but yes, in a FF, FV and F5 group, the F5 want slow, the FF want fast and the FV just want to be told when the start happens.....can you twitter us?

5. I like the idea of a start "zone" and the further down the straight the better. Problem is if the starter waits too long then the front rows are looking up. The starters stand does not have to be the finish stand at some tracks. Maybe lights are better.

6. If it's raining or there are a lot of cars I may be slightly out of line. I want to see. No more than 1/2 a car width. Although staggered rows, like some standing starts would not be a bad idea, just don't know how you keep formation....

ChrisZ

[cooleyjb]

Next up, Lemans style starts!

The enduro next weekend at Portland has a Lemans style start. Driver on the track wall in pitlane with a helper at the door of the car. Really cool. We were 6th out last year and were still a good 15 seconds behind the first car out.

[rickb99]

The enduro next weekend at Portland has a Lemans style start. Driver on the track wall in pitlane with a helper at the door of the car. Really cool. We were 6th out last year and were still a good 15 seconds behind the first car out.

Cooley,

Are you coming out here to run the 6/12 Hours of Cascades at Portland International next weekend? Who's team are you with?

[provamo]

a little less than a million years ago as our field approached the starters stand at a Bulova Formula Ford race at Mosport another flag ( yellow?) was raised AS the green flag was dropped!

the resulting mayhem only cost me a steering rack and a nose cone.....shortest race i ever ran

[cooleyjb]

Cooley,

Are you coming out here to run the 6/12 Hours of Cascades at Portland International next weekend? Who's team are you with?

Nope, Baby #2 is due the following week.

I was supposed to be in the OYorDunFor Pro3 car.

[glenn cooper]

I would LOVE me some standing starts. In fact, bring a bucket full of 'em!
Unfortunately as has been previously pointed out that would be not such a good idea with mixed classes.
One can dream, can't they?

Yeah, it really pisses me off also when I'm pole and on the approach to the start, co-pole starts gettin' it/pulls ahead. Whoa bucko, who's controlling this thing anyway?
I wish that all regions would do a black flag for this sorta infraction.
I'd half expect the start to be waved off, but the reality of the situation is unless it's REAL UGLY, they probably WON'T.
Definitely no wave offs in a Pro/televised event. I learned this running a few years back in STAR Mazda. Bottom line - the TV time is running and they will NOT, EVER, do a wave off. Unfortunate but true...
In the southeast, back when Mucha was on pole all the time w/ the ear splitter rotary powered CSR's, starts were a full throttle blast as soon as the pace car exited the track.
That car did not run well at low rpm, and it seemed to work well enough to stretch the field out! Of course if you Q'd badly, you were pretty much done...

GC

[rickb99]

Nope, Baby #2 is due the following week.

I was supposed to be in the OYorDunFor Pro3 car.

Awww, well congratulations and, sorry you won't make it. It's a great event.

OYouDunFor team good one with Rob Dunn, Kevin York, Paul Forgey and Tom Olsson. I imagine on of those are a 'replacement' for you not making it. They have signed up for the full 12 hour race. Of the 21 team entry's to date, only 2 of them are in for the 6 hour race.

Those Pro3 guys DO have so much fun! Man, talk about racing miles for the dollars. They run every second of track time they can get including lapping days. Some of their engines have over 100,000 miles on them and just keep ticking along. Close racing and great group of drivers. Isn't unusual in their run group to see over 40 cars with 25 plus of them Pro3's.

Maybe you can make the 6 Hours of Pacific Raceway next March as a 'post baby' celebration event That's always a fun one too. Never know if you're racing in dry, wet or sleet and snow!

P.S.
The Enduro's are the ONLY events ICSCC uses the semi-lemans style start on. All others are rolling starts which are easier on clutch's and half shafts

[mmi16]

a little less than a million years ago as our field approached the starters stand at a Bulova Formula Ford race at Mosport another flag ( yellow?) was raised AS the green flag was dropped!

the resulting mayhem only cost me a steering rack and a nose cone.....shortest race i ever ran

I recall a start at Sebring several years ago....Green waved and 17 cars wrecked before the S/F line.

[EYERACE]

i was in that 17 car pile up - Sebring National - so you're in between walls as the green comes out - FF F500 FV - the #3 [or was it 4?] tried to shoot the gap between 1 & 2 but somehow ended up sideways - the next few rows got collected as they checked up and the next few rows further back were accelerating into the mess - a V actually kept getting hit so much that he end up geting shoved to the top of a pile of other cars. I lost all 4 corners and the car didn't get back out for over a year as it under went a total frame up. gordon jolley got quick snaps of about twenty pictures of the whole thing from turn 1 - i doubt they're yet posted at his website - everybody in the wreck got a DNS as we never crossed the S/F line in the wreck

[provamo]

staggered starts (standing or otherwise) by potential class performance are not a bad idea, especially if they are inverted (maybe no one does this anymore but i have experienced it. in the previous century)

[mousecatcher]

staggered starts (standing or otherwise) by potential class performance are not a bad idea, especially if they are inverted (maybe no one does this anymore but i have experienced it. in the previous century)

fast cars start in the back? good for generating mayhem.

[provamo]

fast cars at the back make for a better show

[mousecatcher]

fast cars at the back make for a better show

this is amateur racing! no show, please ...

[mmi16]

i was in that 17 car pile up - Sebring National - so you're in between walls as the green comes out - FF F500 FV - the #3 [or was it 4?] tried to shoot the gap between 1 & 2 but somehow ended up sideways - the next few rows got collected as they checked up and the next few rows further back were accelerating into the mess - a V actually kept getting hit so much that he end up geting shoved to the top of a pile of other cars. I lost all 4 corners and the car didn't get back out for over a year as it under went a total frame up. gordon jolley got quick snaps of about twenty pictures of the whole thing from turn 1 - i doubt they're yet posted at his website - everybody in the wreck got a DNS as we never crossed the S/F line in the wreck

Start of the incident from the 2004 Sebring National


http://gordon.smugmug.com/2004-Event...811_WxKaR-A-LB

[Steve Demeter]

If the pace lap and the pace of the front of the field were reasonably fast and the front of the field did not slow way down coming to the start, causing the infamous accordian effect, starts would be much cleaner and IMHO one of the best ideas from Indy car Racing is a significant distance between rows to allow more time to react to the occasional mayhem.

Keep the speed up and no one gets a jump.

Larry, the use of start judges (no disrespect intended) is one of the dumbest thingas to invade SCCA racing. It is so difficult to accurately see what is going on from the non vantage point that they have at most tracks. I would be highly in favor of a properly placed video camera recording the start for review immediately after the start.

That way it is not my word against the word on someone whose decision is unappealable.

The idea that you can not move out of line to see what is going on is also absurd. As long as you do not move up before the green it should be allowed in the name of safety.

[Larry]

...I just apply them.
-----------------------------------------
Larry, the use of start judges (no disrespect intended) is one of the dumbest thingas to invade SCCA racing. It is so difficult to accurately see what is going on from the non vantage point that they have at most tracks. I would be highly in favor of a properly placed video camera recording the start for review immediately after the start.

That way it is not my word against the word on someone whose decision is unappealable.

The idea that you can not move out of line to see what is going on is also absurd. As long as you do not move up before the green it should be allowed in the name of safety.
-----------------------------------------
I haven't been at every track in the country, but where I have been, the start judges have had exceptional view of the field AND the starter. One judge is usually tasked on yelling "Green" while the other judges observe the field.

At the risk of being boring, I'll again cite the GCR:
"
[FONT=Verdana]Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that the majority of the drivers can see the flag,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]If the Starter determines that the field is not in good order, or that some drivers have improved their positions by moving out of line or by passing[/FONT]

Whether you see the idea of moving out of line or not as absurd strikes me as absurd, since the rules prohibit it. Since the rule exists, you should either follow it or work to change it. The last thing you should do is argue it after the point, as it is a waste of time.

Larry Oliver

[Steve Demeter]

Larry,
Differences in opinion are what make the world go around and life interesting.


Steve

[rickb99]

Next up, Lemans style starts!

Although at Le Mans, the Le Mans style start was 'interesting' to watch. You always worried about which car already reaching close to or over 100 MPH and coming from the back of the line would slam in to a car pulling into the racing line from the front of the grid. Which is part of why they stopped doing it.

From a spectator stand point, the Le Mans start has an excitement level just slightly above bleeding brakes!

Although doing a Le Mans start once in a while adds a different experience to the mix, it really does nothing in terms of adding to the race. But it is fun on occasion

The Le Mans start from yesterdays 34th ANNUAL 6/12 Hours of the Cascades Enduro at Portland International Raceway with heap plenty Bimmers (Pro3) cars. NOT shot be me.

Grid was set on the hot pit road. It does do a pretty good job in these cases of spreading the field out partly due to being under pit speed rules till you hit the track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPyYVmbtXU

[cooleyjb]

Although at Le Mans, the Le Mans style start was 'interesting' to watch. You always worried about which car already reaching close to or over 100 MPH and coming from the back of the line would slam in to a car pulling into the racing line from the front of the grid. Which is part of why they stopped doing it.

From a spectator stand point, the Le Mans start has an excitement level just slightly above bleeding brakes!

Although doing a Le Mans start once in a while adds a different experience to the mix, it really does nothing in terms of adding to the race. But it is fun on occasion

The Le Mans start from yesterdays 34th ANNUAL 6/12 Hours of the Cascades Enduro at Portland International Raceway with heap plenty Bimmers (Pro3) cars. NOT shot be me.

Grid was set on the hot pit road. It does do a pretty good job in these cases of spreading the field out partly due to being under pit speed rules till you hit the track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KPyYVmbtXU

I'm guessing the rain didn't come until after the start.

IIRC the pit speed was 35mph last year and it looks like it was about the same this year. We had no problem with it, although the team I ran with this year had some belt issues and were near the last to get out after being one of the first last year.

I think one of the big things that helps the Cascades is that everyone realizes it's not a sprint race and don't have the red mist that might cause someone to get runover or beat up during the start.

[rickb99]

I'm guessing the rain didn't come until after the start.

I think one of the big things that helps the Cascades is that everyone realizes it's not a sprint race and don't have the red mist that might cause someone to get runover or beat up during the start.

LOL, the rain always comes at some point. Or, as in the March Enduro, the blinding snow storm that ended the race 4 hours short at Pacific.

Yes, running 2 Enduros a year, all our drivers realize you don't win it in the 1st 60 seconds of the event

Cooley,

Wish I had known this before the event. A live web cam feed from the Portland track. Wonder if they leave it on during major events. T-12 and on the straight from the pedestrian bridge:

http://www.pirlive.com/

Click PIR live on the left side

P.S.
There were 2 wall hits during the rain. Not sure where. My guess exit of T-12 and or loosing it in the Festival brake zone