Rolling Starts Question

[Jim Garry]

This has been on my mind ever since seeing a bunch of Runoffs videos on the interwebs. I don't have much actual experience, only racing a Vee briefly in the early 80s. My question is ... when should the pole sitter go to full throttle? Only when the flag waves? Before? How much before?

In my inexperienced mind, I see the field moving down the front straight in good formation, going roughly the same speed as the pace car was going when it pulled off.

But that's not what you see in the videos.

In particular, there are two to use as examples.

This first one is from the T1 race that has caused a huge stink over on sccaforums.com.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3sSAxSi2-8

Then there's the FA start that caused zero stink even though the field went full throttle quite awhile before the flag waved (although not as soon as in T1). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI4PCsMewJc

This isn't an argument and I'm not trying to make a point. I'm sincerely looking for experienced hands to fill me in on this in case I ever get my finances in order and get my FF to a race track.

Thanks in advance,

[carnut169]

Car on pole is supposed to maintain the speed set by the pace car until they see the green flag waiving.

[carnut169]

After watching the T1 race (and watching it on Speedcast you could not tell) it was clearly a terrible start. The Ferrari got on it waaay to early and the Viper should have stayed right next to him. The starter should not have dropped the green, imho

[Evl]

My question is ... when should the pole sitter go to full throttle? Only when the flag waves? Before? How much before?

To quote Carroll Smith, "as soon as he can arrange an advantage by doing so".

That said, I usually go when people start passing me.

[Rennie Clayton]

Car on pole is supposed to maintain the speed set by the pace car until they see the green flag waiving.

There is considerable interpretive flexibility in that stack of rules. For instance, this snippet is from a few paragraphs subsequent to the one you're quoting:

While the pace lap may proceed at a brisk pace, the field shall be slowed at a sufficient distance before the start line to allow orderly grouping of the field. The actual speed immediately prior to the start is somewhat dictated by the types of cars, size of the field, and course layout.

Generally speaking for the FA crowd, we kind of expect and desire the fast start routine (most of the time the pace car goes so slow that the majority of the field is at risk of fouling plugs). Hence, no real complaints from the field that I'm aware of on the fast starts.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Daryl DeArman]

Pace car determines pace while on the track, it is then up to the pole setter to determine the pace unless your particular sanctioning body has a "no accelerating until this point zone/line/cone" or rule specifically stating that the pole sitter may not accelerate until the green flag is thrown.

[iamuwere]

I have never liked the way the SCCA rules are written regarding starts. Go to your average dirt track Friday night and they "get it". The pole gets to pick when to hit the gas (otherwise, what is the advantage to being on the pole?) and everyone starts going thereafter. The green falls when the starter sees the pole sitter hit the gas. Some tracks have a defined "start" point where no passing to to occur prior thereto.

I have a great picture of being on pole. I held the pace car speed out of the last corner (I have MPH on dash, so I know it was the same) approaching the start. I was about eighth or so by the time the green flag flew. Most of the field passed me long, long before the green was thown. (No, I was not "sleeping at the wheel---I was watching closely because I had a strong suspicion this would happen from the prior day's race!) Of course the green flag was thrown anyway and my complaint to the officials afterward was met with disinterest. I still fought back and won overall, so who cares really, but most starters do not seem or expect the pole to maintain the speed of the pacecar in reality it seems.

Jim

[carnut169]

There is considerable interpretive flexibility in that stack of rules. For instance, this snippet is from a few paragraphs subsequent to the one you're quoting:



Generally speaking for the FA crowd, we kind of expect and desire the fast start routine (most of the time the pace car goes so slow that the majority of the field is at risk of fouling plugs). Hence, no real complaints from the field that I'm aware of on the fast starts.


Cheers,
Rennie

Yes, fair enough. That's not what appeared to happen in the T1 race as the Ferrari seemed to keep accelerating, not maintaining any pace at all.

[iamuwere]

Yes, fair enough. That's not what appeared to happen in the T1 race as the Ferrari seemed to keep accelerating, not maintaining any pace at all.

Undoubtedly, that start should have been waved off. But, if was was #2, I would not have been letting the started get that far ahead of me, either.

[Nardi]

While there are 'rules' written about proper starts, my experiences as a driver and a spectator have shown me it is all up to the mood of the starter.

[rickb99]

....Generally speaking for the FA crowd, we kind of expect and desire the fast start routine (most of the time the pace car goes so slow that the majority of the field is at risk of fouling plugs). Hence, no real complaints from the field that I'm aware of on the fast starts.

Cheers,
Rennie

Yup, that's a problem up here both in SCCA, SOVREN and ICSCC racing. Pace Cars run 'typically' between 35 and 45 MPH. The FA's are fouling plugs and even the FC's are having a hard time holding it back. GT-1's are at LESS then idle speed.

In SOVREN, the F1's and F5000's are hysterical dropping back and taking a run at the Pace Car to keep their engines going.

BUT, that said, our fields DO an excellent job once the Pace Car drops off of holding a "slow" pace UNTIL the green flag waves. VERY, VERY rare to see a jumped start.

Don't recal which club SCCA, ICSCC or SOVREN came up with a new way at one race this year to stop jumped starts. Barring a mechanical issue with a car ahead in the LINE, it became an 'offense' to move out of line before passing the S/F station! Ouch.

[Mark_Silverberg]

While the pace car is to determine the pace once it is off the track the field is under control of the pole sitter (although perhaps not officially). The race will start when the pole sitter or the starter decides - which ever comes first.

[Jim Gustafson]

The PACE car sets the PACE, when the PACE car pulls off, the pole sitter sets the PACE, sometimes the PACE is picked up a bit, but sudden acceleration is a..... "change of PACE." Remember, the field is ALWAYS under the starters' orders. The starter better remember it too.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[Bob Wright]

The best starts I have seen are when the pole car (who under SCCA rules has control of the field when the pace car peels off) starts to accelerate smoothly bringing the field with him/her. The starts which are really slow can often end badly because the front cars are often overun by those behind jumping the start.

In our Series, we dictate the start as 4500 rpm in first gear until you see the green-it works very well almost all the time.

[Steve Demeter]

Anyone out there in any capacity as an official, at least in GLDIV, pace laps are insanely slow for our cars.

Then coming towards the pit entry the pace car usually just about stops while still on track.

the accordian effect is dangerous to say the least.

[RussMcB]

The last time I was on the pole my riding mechanic and I got a great start. We had the lead as we jumped the railroad tracks and held it past the barn before fishtailing into the hay bales.

It was quite a while ago. These days I listen and watch the cars around me and hope to time it right. If I think of it, I might glance toward the starter.

[Wren]

Don't recal which club SCCA, ICSCC or SOVREN came up with a new way at one race this year to stop jumped starts. Barring a mechanical issue with a car ahead in the LINE, it became an 'offense' to move out of line before passing the S/F station! Ouch.

I don't think I would care for that at all.

We were watching the regional race at the 40th from Canada corner and the field was taking the green as the last 20 or so cars were coming through Canada. It was blatantly obvious which cars had radios and which didn't as all of the sudden half of the cars jumped on the gas and started racing while the other maintained the pace speed.

[Bill Steele]

Our last race at Infineon (Sears Point) we had a real time, not open book, test of the GCR and start procedures and what can go wrong if things, well, don't go right.

As we rolled down to the start, everything seemed normal. I was about five rows back in the CF pack (Group 4 in SF Region is FF, CF, and FV). As we roll toward the bend in the straight I was glancing at the flag stand and the row in front of me, back and forth, back and forth.

When I saw the green flag I launched and was off. As I approached Tom Duncan's VD RF98 at what seemed like Mach 2, I saw his arm up in the air wildly waving back and forth. I missed him by plenty (maybe a few inches). I was confused as half the field seemed to be signaling a "no start" and half was hard on it. Like a good Puritan boy, I fell in behind Tom and waited for the Black Flag All.

After I passed the first turn and saw no double yellow, no black flag, no red flag, I too was on it, if waaay back, largely due to my clean conscience at all cost Puritan upbringing. I spent the rest of the race getting back to where I thought I might finish before all the drama at the start occurred. In the last few laps I spun coming out of the carousel, perhaps trying too hard to catch Chuck Horn up, and that race was toast.

After the race, I came up to some of the FF guys and they were talking about the start. Seems as the front few rows of FF’s came rolling down to the start, the starter was shaking her head "No". All the FF’s up front thought that meant, "No start". Seems most of those that had radios, also got the "No start, no start" from their spotters.

Things got kind of hairy when the gal in the starter's stand apparently changed her mind and flew the green flag (I didn't say a word!). Thankfully for me, I was too far back to see the head shake "NO", so while confused the whole race at exactly WTF had happened, I was not officially enough misinformed to be totally screwed up. The guys with the radios were hosed.

In the end, nowadays even at venues like the Runoff's where the first two qualifiers might be separated by over a second, it really doesn’t matter how the front few rows start, but even then, for sure, some starts are more exciting than others.

[azjc]

At the last ProAutoSports race 2 weeks ago I qualified 2nd, the pole sitter was late to the grid so I ended up taking the pole position. Now this is more of a "fun" series then hard core racing..... but I was surprised that when coming onto the starting straight as I let the field settle behind me the car (different class) that took the # 2 position was already accelerating. So, being a silly person that believes rules should be followed I held my pace... the starter let the green fly when he had a least 2 car lengths on me and was carrying a lot more speed then me! Kind of pissed me off, I couldn't get him under braking at the first corner but had him shortly after.

My goal was to get the green when I was pulling about 4000 in first - next time I'll be prepared for anything .

[Bruce Livermore]

If the starters are going to throw the green when we are so obviously "out of line" they are going to get what they are "asking" for. Send us around on few extra pace laps and we will stay in line and obey the rules so we aren't wasting our limited laps not racing. That T1 start was unforgivable.

[rickb99]

..... but I was surprised that when coming onto the starting straight as I let the field settle behind me the car (different class) that took the # 2 position was already accelerating. So, being a silly person that believes rules should be followed I held my pace... the starter let the green fly when he had a least 2 car lengths on me and was carrying a lot more speed then me! Kind of pissed me off....

That would NEVER happen up here. Our "Starter Staff" are the same people in SCCA, ICSCC and SOVREN (yes, hard core workers group, we are )

If the #2 guy did that here (and the Starter went green any way), he'd see a black flag OPEN on his 2nd or 3rd lap.

Perhaps that's why we have so few 'no start' pace laps

NOTE:
Why the 2nd or 3rd lap instead of the 1st time by? "We" have a policy that works pretty good on the pace and 1st racing lap. Radio silence on the race control channel during that period except for things that could effect the continuation of the race such as, alerts or a blocked track.

So, the Steward won't hear about the jumped start for at least 1 lap of the race.

[Larry]

...and all these years I thought that the SCCA GCR was pretty clear. "Maintain a constant pace," stay in line and don't accelerate until the green waves. Fortunately, at Summit Point we have starters who aren't reluctant to wave off a start. Unfortunately, an aborted start can be one of the most dangerous things we do. PLEASE--especially if you are in the front 1/3 of an aborted start, accelerate smoothly and steadily until you are sure the back of the pack realizes there is no start. Then raise your arm and indicate that you're going to slow. Then slow gradually. I've seen too many examples of cars in front not accelerating and cars behind jumping the flag. It gets very ugly, very quickly.

If you get passed in this kind of situation and the passing car doesn't correct itself and there is no black flag, then by all means FILE A PROTEST!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Daryl DeArman]

...and all these years I thought that the SCCA GCR was pretty clear. "Maintain a constant pace," stay in line and don't accelerate until the green waves. <snip>

If you get passed in this kind of situation and the passing car doesn't correct itself and there is no black flag, then by all means FILE A PROTEST!

Larry, not sure if you are paraphrasing or not as I don't have the most recent GCR handy. I don't recall anything saying that p1 must "maintain a constant pace".

Mentioning getting "passed", pole position IMO can not cause a false start unless they pass the pace car. If they don't pass the pace car they are free to begin accelerating at any point after the pace car leaves the racing surface.

[Larry]

Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that the majority of the drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line. The race shall be under way throughout the field at the instant the green flag is waved and passing may occur at any point, within reasonable safety standards.

H. If the Starter determines that the field is not in good order, or that some drivers have improved their positions by moving out of line or by passing prior to the waving of the green flag, the Starter shall abort the start by making no flag movements whatsoever, and at the same time shake his or her head in a negative manner, to indicate that a start shall not take place. This will inform the drivers to proceed on another pace lap. Drivers will raise one hand to indicate that the start is aborted. (Except as provided in 6.2.3.B.)

I. Should an aborted start occur and additional pace laps be run, those additional laps will be run under double standing yellow flags at all flag stations, and they shall be scored as race laps. Timing will start when the pole car crosses the timing control line, unless otherwise specified by the Supplementary Regulations for the event.

J. A car may not improve its position in the field once it comes under the Starter’s orders, regardless of circumstances.

1. A car that fails to start with the pack or falls out of position during a pace lap relinquishes its grid position. It may rejoin the field only at the rear of the pack.

2. A car that improves its position is guilty of a false start and may be penalized. A false start shall occur when a driver under the Starter’s orders moves forward from his or her prescribed position before the start. In the case of a rolling start, this movement shall refer to improving the driver’s position in relation to the moving field by moving out of line or passing prior to the waving of the green flag.

3. If the Chief Steward determines that a false start has occurred, and the race has been started, that driver or drivers may be black-flagged and held in the pits or at the start line for a period of up to one minute. Other penalties may also be imposed. (See 7., Penalties)



I have seen pole-sitters cause a wave-off by playing games, accelerating then braking, trying to cause the field to get screwed up in an attempt to get an unfair jump. I've seen the situation where the pole sitter was rightfully penalized 3 positions for such actions.

Pg 49-50
Note the first sentence says CONSTANT, slow speed.

Larry

[Jim Gustafson]

The word "pace" by definition means "steady rate" and that is the responsibility of the polesitter. The starter determines when you go, that's what the green flag is for, otherwise why have a starter? The assumption by some that the polesitter decides when to start the race is incorrect.

Jim Gustafson
Honorary Member
Formula 5000 Driver's Association

[Dave Gomberg]

In addition to what Larry posted, 6.2.2.E says:
E. The pace car, with emergency lights flashing, shall position itself at
the head of the pack. It shall proceed at a constant slow speed, the
front row drivers having been instructed not to pass the pace car
until the pace car pulls off for the start. If a pace car is not utilized,
the “pole” car shall serve the same function as a pace car from its
position in the front row. In the event the race is not started, necessitating
another pace lap, depending on conditions, the pace car
may overtake the field and resume its function, provided the front
row drivers have been previously advised of this plan. Otherwise,
the “pole” car shall assume the duty of the pace car, remaining in
this front row position. Once the pace car pulls off for the start, the
pole car shall maintain the speed of the pace car just prior to the
pace car pulling off.

Please note the last sentence in bold.

Dave

[Daryl DeArman]

Well then....it would appear pretty obvious to me what the SCCA expects.

[Tom Duncan]

The 2009 GCR, page GCR-50, 6.2.2 K SCCA Standard Start (Rolling Start) states:

"It is to be emphasized that the SCCA Standard Start is a rolling start, not a "flying" start. While the pace lap may proceed at a brisk pace, the field shall be slowed at a sufficient distance before the start line to allow orderly grouping of the field. The actual speed immediately prior to the start is somewhat dictated by the types of cars, size of the field, and course layout".

In other words the pole sitter is not supposed to gun it prior to the flag nor be significantly faster than the pace set by the pace car. It does seem to accommodate the need for some cars to be in a higher rev range to keep from bogging down.

On another note one of the drivers involved in the Sears Point start outlined by Bill Steele above told me he never watches the flagger...just the cars around him. When they go, he goes. Makes me think of lemmings...

According to the same GCR:

"6.2.1. Starter’s Orders Drivers and automobiles shall come under the orders of the Starter from the time the Chief Steward delegates this control to the Starter until the green flag is displayed."

The field is under the control of the starter, not the cars. Who's running the asylum?

Tom Duncan

[EYERACE]

Jim [who started this thread],
let me be candid, this is not meant as disrespect
1. are you expecting to be on pole shortly after you get back to racing?
2. the fellow's right about the comment "the mood of the starter".......if i'm in grid #5 i will make a point to watch a couple of starts of the earlier grids to see - about where on course the cars are when the starter shows the green - and how much of a jump the cars are getting......let me rephrase that.....just how much cheating the leaders are getting away with - and how bunched up the first three rows are or are not and perhaps the starter is waving it off for their irregular formation - is anybody going a little off track at the start so as to pass - and anything else i can learn from the start
3. the other fellow is right too - the race will start when the pole sitter or the starter decide, which ever comes first......meaning if a pole sitter clearly cheated the start but the starter didn't wave it off, you had a start and you shuold too if you're out on track at that moment.......so go for it and be looking for a wave off at the same time........good reason to have a spotter with a radio at the start.
4. yes, it's pretty clear on paper what the scca expects........who races on paper?
5. there is always a gray zone - sometimes it's wider than at other times due to who is enforcing the rules and the zone width can easily vary with the topic. but somebody is always ready to write a new rule that will fix "everything"

[Tom Duncan]

Eyerace,

Your statement" "just how much cheating the leaders are getting away with"...is that so you can asess how much cheating (your word) you can get away with?

And what on earth do you mean by "who races on paper?" Do you see any use for the rules at all?

I certainly wouldn't want to play golf with someone with that attitude...

Tom Duncan

PS: sign your name!

[EYERACE]

tom - you're getting a little personal there - anytime you care to know about me, just click on my name and read my profile - there's nothing to hide - but apparently someone with the "professor" name in the past has been some sort of mystery - and maybe you should be telling quick to sign too.....or others...i don't think we need the internet police - we have a moderator - who by the way i do not think should remove your post or mine.

if there were no wave offs and no protests and no other......there would be no one writing all the rules relating to the start as to what is legit or not legit......so people do "jump the start" and it will continue. the scca can use up reams of paper with all kinds of new rules but some one out there on track will gun it just a little early if they can......go back and read the post saying what Carroll Smith said....you'd not like playing golf with Smith?

[rickjohnson356]

there is a problem if one tries to watch how the starters flag other groups.

the starter specialty typically has multiple people who are qualified to perform the actual flag waving for the start.

and they rotate the job around among them.

so, the person you watch wave the flag for a prior group may not be the one for our group.

obviously each starter has their own criteria as to when to throw the flag or do a wave-off.

in Atl region, I know that John Goetzman, a veteran FF driver, usually starts at least one of the formula car groups because of his prior experience as a driver. I don't know for sure, but it may work that way for other groups too.

[Gerald Barrett]

I have had one pace car driver get it exactly right. Before he got in the pace car, he came over to me (on the pole) and asked if 40-50 MPH pace was good for our cars. I said that would be perfect, I will watch my RPM and hold it there until the green, as I always try to do. It always pisses me off, when the outside pole rolls into the throttle before the green & I have to speed up to match the pace of the outside pole. That's when it should be waived off.
When I am on the outside pole, I try to keep my nose equal or slightly behind the inside pole's nose until the green.

[Mark Walthew]

At VIR I was crewing for the polesitter. He was specifically instructed to maintain pace car speed after the pace car pulled off. The pace car would maintain the same speed down pit road. If he passed the pace car before the green was waved he would be black flagged. We had radios so he watched the pace car and I watched the starter.
Regarding the Infineon start Bill Steele experienced a head shake and then a green flag is a no no. According to the GCR the starter shall remain motionless until waving the green flag. If an aborted start is determined the starter will shake their head. They can't do both. Hopefully that starter got some feedback.

[Tom Duncan]

Mark, I can assure you the Sears Point starter got PLENTY of feedback...

Tom Duncan

[mousecatcher]

this thread, that started off so simply, has exposed many of the problems with rolling starts. why doesn't SCCA change to standing starts?

[Jim Gustafson]

this thread, that started off so simply, has exposed many of the problems with rolling starts. why doesn't SCCA change to standing starts?

You've just poured gasoline on the fire! Bad idea at this level for so many reasons, for both man and machine. Rolling starts are not the problem, people who are "stuck on stupid" are.

Jim Gustafson
Visual Communications

[Bill Steele]

Don't recal which club SCCA, ICSCC or SOVREN came up with a new way at one race this year to stop jumped starts. Barring a mechanical issue with a car ahead in the LINE, it became an 'offense' to move out of line before passing the S/F station! Ouch.

In the SF region, you can be busted if you are out of line (they want two nice rows) before the green is shown. At times (not sure all the time), if you jinx out of line before the green, even if you are not passing the guy in front of you while doing it, you can be DQ'ed or drop places. I think they use spotters for this, maybe timing and scoring people before they start recording numbers, but am not sure. I am pretty sure it doesn't happen at every race because I would have heard more about it.

[EYERACE]

mouse.......one reason may be that standing starts are much harder on the mechanical equipment by virtue of torque in comparison to what physics equations come into play by applying force to a moving part. while an ITC car may not shred itself internally from a standing start, some seriously endowed cars might break an axle shaft/CV joint/transaxle or other internal equipment when stationary and then floored. a car that suddenly lurched sideways at the start would be far more dangerous than a rolling start. how many drag cars break right off the line versus break halfway down the track? sure some do halfway break down...... but to put a stationary part into motion is one of the hardest thing the metalurgist must cope with.

no matter what way one starts a race, the first seconds when the track goes green are generally more dangerous than most any other part of the race.....and the time when a gained initial advantage might be all one has to beat a competitor by that same small margin at the end of the race.

[mousecatcher]

You've just poured gasoline on the fire! Bad idea at this level for so many reasons, for both man and machine. Rolling starts are not the problem, people who are "stuck on stupid" are.

Yes but as they say, you can't fix stupid!

Besides the obvious that the launch is hard on the drivetrain and you might have to avoid the car in front, what are the issues? I've been in many a bad rolling start and it is always a frustration.