A different kind of What If.

[Bill Steele]

First let me say the following was not my idea. Neil Porter and Peter Nosler both long time FF competitors out here in the SF Region came up with it. When I first heard it I didn’t like it, as I hate the alphabet soup nature of our run groups now. Like any smarty pants, it took me a while to see the real genius in the idea.

I put it out here because I think the idea really has merit for many reasons. I don’t know if it is even possible at this late date to get something like this done, or if Honda would even consider it acceptable, although I think they really should as I think it is actually preferable to jamming the Fit into FF at this time.

Maybe a separate class, call it Formula Honda (FH) is the right idea. Say we duplicate the FF GCR and only change the engine specs to Fit. We throw away the restrictor bringing the engine up to a genuine good National Kent level (116-117 HP), we allow the new class to run side by side with FF right out of the gate in Nationals and the Runoff's (this keeps Honda happy, along with guys like me who will convert), we spec a hard slick tire and negotiate a good deal on the price (this will keep the FF guys that run sticky GY or Hoosiers happy, as well as me because of the good price) and Honda gets their own class with the name recognition that comes with it.

From my discussions with many that plan to convert a car to the Fit, they would still convert if the criteria above were met.

To summerize:

1) New class, Formula Honda (FH)
2) Duplicate of FF GCR except Fit engine specs.
3) Runs side by side with FF at all Nationals and Runoffs starting in 2010.
4) Throw away the restrictor bringing it up to a genuine top National Kent level.
5) No sealing, we need to continue to support our engine builders.
6) We get a hard compound slick spec tire at a price closer to $550 than $900/set.

The reason I think this makes sense is most of the issues surrounding a new class and if it will take off are solved. Plenty of existing chassis, a single conversion and guys are in a class they understand with cars they understand (no learning curve).

My belief is the success and attraction of FF over the years is not because it has a Kent engine, but because FF has always struck the perfect balance in a formula of price and performance, complexity and simplicity. Formula Honda would provide the exact same benefits, thus giving it a major leg up on most new classes.

What do you think?

[Matt King]

Same idea, just call it F1600 and invite the new Ford Duratec proposal, if it ever emerges, and any other manufacturer. At some point in the future, maybe the Kent diehards will become convinced there is parity and welcome a merger.

[LJennings]

2009 GCR rule 9.1.12.

Start out as a regional class running in FS and when it makes 2.5 it can have it own class. No more FB / FE crap.

[Stan Clayton]

2009 GCR rule 9.1.12.

Start out as a regional class running in FS and when it makes 2.5 it can have it own class. No more FB / FE crap.

What "crap" do you refer to? During FE's first year as a National class they averaged 3.9 entries per race (278 entries in 71 races).

[Stan Clayton]

6) We get a hard compound slick spec tire at a price closer to $550 than $900/set.

While you're at it, get rid of those silly balloon tires in favor of the FC sizes.

Same idea, just call it F1600 and invite the new Ford Duratec proposal, if it ever emerges, and any other manufacturer. At some point in the future, maybe the Kent diehards will become convinced there is parity and welcome a merger.

IMNSHO, this is the only version of the idea that has any legs. Another one-make or one-engine class is DOA for a whole host of reasons. Stock internals with blueprinting permitted (people do it anyway). An inlet restrictor to cap hp at some reasonable level (115 hp?), and make it an all-comers F1600 class.

Oh yeah...5-sp sequential boxes, modern calipers, EFI-only, all at same weight.

[LJennings]

What "crap" do you refer to? During FE's first year as a National class they averaged 3.9 entries per race (278 entries in 71 races).

I forgot about 9.1.12.D

[SteveLevin]

IMNSHO, this is the only version of the idea that has any legs. Another one-make or one-engine class is DOA for a whole host of reasons.

Why do you say that? As a newbie it seems that FE has done well stacked against FC. Perhaps a sealed FH class is exactly what people need.

Steve

[John Merriman]

" So if this is where we're headed, what's needed is a plan that provides the best of all worlds for club racing in general and which also does not just send the thousands of Kent engined cars off to the vintage ranks unceremoniously! So I suggest the "FIT" engined cars be designated as "FORMULA F" and run with FF1600 cars for two years. Yeah, it's "another class" but who cares? There's still room on the grids. "

[provamo]

NASCAR does a reasonable job equalizing the performance of its mid-engined fuel injected computer controlled multi-make engine and chassis series...........so how about utilizing their groundwork and adopting it to a small-bore future formula?

[Greg Mercurio]

This proposed solution elimnates the spending curve that a race for parity will create. IF SCCA has the stones to do it this way.

I can predict with certainty that if the SCCA shoehorns the FIT into the Formula Ford section of the GCR, my RF94 will become an FC again.

[Bill Steele]

NASCAR does a reasonable job equalizing the performance of its mid-engined fuel injected computer controlled multi-make engine and chassis series...........so how about utilizing their groundwork and adopting it to a small-bore future formula?

I totally agree, except NASCAR doesn't have a bunch of neurotic over the hill drivers that are sure the guy in front of him has a better engine, when in fact, it is because the guy in front of him enters and exits the previous corner faster.

That is the biggest argument in favor of the dyno and seal approach. It helps cut down on the $7K rebuilds for that mythical 3 HP and its attendant placebo effect on performance.

Besides, when NASCAR sees a rule needs to be implemented to keep things competitive, it just does it, anyone who whines can take their program elsewhere. SCCA is a democracy where, just like the good old US of A, wackos still get a vote.

[Stan Clayton]

I can predict with certainty that if the SCCA shoehorns the FIT into the Formula Ford section of the GCR, my RF94 will become an FC again.

Greg, now that the cat is well and truly out of the bag, what will you do if Ford gets their Duratec approved?

[Greg Mercurio]

Stan, I've never made any attempt to keep the cat hidden, I've maintained a steady stand on rules stability. Should Ford choose to add a third engine to FF and I have to spend $$ to play the parity game I'll stick with FC. It is not cheap to keep up with the FC aluminum head and Zetec. For the Zetec guys, it's take out some lead and buy a new restrictor plate. For me it was a flywheel redo, a cam (single sourced and far too expensive for a regrind of MY CORE!!) and a set of followers which ain't cheap either. Not including my .75 days of labor to pull the engine install the cam and followers and flywheel it was a $1000 bill.

I don't have the resources to maintain a parity race for 2 classes.

IT AIN'T ABOUT THE LOGO ON THE BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, I've never made any attempt to keep the cat hidden...

Greg, I didn't mean to give the impression that I think you let the cat out of the bad...that was done over on the other thread.

I've maintained a steady stand on rules stability.

Let me say this very gently, Greg, since I consider you a friend...no you haven't. What you have done is maintain a steady stand on "don't change anything now that I am in the class", which is not quite the same thing. Proof? When the Cortina engine was first approved in FF it was rated at, IIRC, 48 hp. The Kent was rated at about 60 hp. Either will make nearly twice those numbers with full race preparation for SCCA (and up to nearly 185 hp with truly full race prep!).

And what did the SCCA Brass tell the Cortina guys when they approved the Kent? Tough sh*t, guys, upgrade your engine...and that was nearly 40 years ago! In fact, if the then-SCCA and Ford Brass could magically fast-forward to today, they would be astounded at the protectionism on display these days in the class. Their intent then was to keep a near-bone-stock, cheap, capable and widely available current engine in the chassis to keep costs to a minimum. They would have laughed at the idea that 50+ years on we would still be running an engine that first appeared in a road car in 1958.

I don't have the resources to maintain a parity race for 2 classes.

Neither do I, which is precisely why I support the Fit.

IT AIN'T ABOUT THE LOGO ON THE BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe not for you or for me, Greg, but that's precisely what it is for many.

[Bill Steele]

Maybe not for you or for me, Greg, but that's precisely what it is for many.

I never got that until very recently.

[Greg Mercurio]

Stan: Your logic is nearly Vulcan.

And I would hardly argue rules stability for F-Prod, there's no dog in the hunt.

So not to put too much more time into this, Spec Miata hasn't had rules stability forever, leading to our own Sealed Spec Miata, the Regions answer to escalating spending in a "Spec" class.

So then if this were to become a separate class within the rules governing Formula Ford as Bill suggests then everyone wins correct?

Especially other manufacturers that want in on the fun.

[Stan Clayton]

Stan: Your logic is nearly Vulcan.

What is this "Vulcan logic"? I am not familiar with that form of logic.

So then if this were to become a separate class within the rules governing Formula Ford as Bill suggests then everyone wins correct?

If that is what the BoD does, then that is where I will take my Zink, even though I'd rather be running a modern engine in FF.

[Daryl DeArman]

If that is what the BoD does, then that is where I will take my Zink, even though I'd rather be running a modern engine in FF.

I suspect that you won't be alone. If that is the way this ends up I think that those who support the Fit will either go immediately or the first time their Kent needs some real work. Probably not more than 5 years from now those who wanted to keep the Ford in FF will be wishing they had more people to race against....looking around wondering why everybody left??? Of course then they will likely complain loud and long enough about too many classes, FFK and FFH will be merged and they'll be constant whining about lack of parity.

Hope I am wrong.

[EACIII]

Well if the Fit is going to be a sealed motor I will be changing classes. I have zero interest in a race car with a sealed motor.

Ed Callo

[dc]

The Kent will never be a sealed engine. No one will ever force you to run a Fit.

[Bill Steele]

Well if the Fit is going to be a sealed motor I will be changing classes. I have zero interest in a race car with a sealed motor.

Ed Callo

Well at least we won't be losing another one to FE.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Bill, your suggestion is pretty much what I have been advocating.

[Bill Steele]

Bill, your suggestion is pretty much what I have been advocating.

Roland, I understand. Peter Nosler and Neil Porter were the first ones to suggest this idea up here. I disliked the notion at first (and for quite a while) as I felt it would spliter FF fields already under stress. It took me a while to realize the longer term benefit to this approach.

As it is, since I posted this thread I have come to understand that this won't happen in any case. It will be good when this thing is decided so people can start planning for next season.

Hope things turned out well for you at Willow Springs.

[Joefisherff]

Sealed engine - no need if modifications are limited and a spec ECU map is used. Take enough time to write it right before approving it. Learn from Spec Miata and what drove their engine costs up to 10K and write the proposal to eliminate this.

No ability to sleeve the block - this just builds in obsolesence. Why not, like the Kent, give people the ability to sleeve the block to keep rebuild costs down?

What can be done to refresh a head? New guides, valves, seats? If you crack a head can it be welded and re-used? If you sell this as an economical alternative then make all of this available to minimize rebuild costs.

ECU - Look at cheap alternatives like mega-squirt, etc. versus a BOSCH, Pectel, etc. - the latter are pricey and hard to find used. Zetec guys are forced to buy them from limited sources increasing the costs - also find a way to protect them so when they get soaked you don't have to buy a new one!

A win/win would be where you don't obsolete all of the Kent engines that we all have a significant investment in yet allow new technology to flow into the class or a related class. If you can strike that balance you have a much better chance of convincing the masses. My 2 cents.

I'm not a huge fan of the proposal but I think it needs some tweaking if it is going to be pushed through.

[PCalhoun]

ECU - Look at cheap alternatives like mega-squirt, etc. versus a BOSCH, Pectel, etc. - the latter are pricey and hard to find used. Zetec guys are forced to buy them from limited sources increasing the costs - also find a way to protect them so when they get soaked you don't have to buy a new one!

The proposal includes an ECU built in-house by HPD and is part of the conversion package pricing. The test car only has been running w/ a Motec.

[Joefisherff]

Pete,

My vote would be to use the cheap and readily available mega-squirt or something similar versus the in-house developed or Motec options. No sense re-inventing the wheel and increasing the conversion package price. Single sourcing continues to get us pushed into corners that just escalate costs - if they are selling this as an economical solution then tweak it to decrease the conversion costs. That would be a refreshing change from other proposals for it to come in BELOW their estimates. I didn't think this proposal was set in stone just yet so if there is room for changes that make sense let's consider them.

Joe

[Ananth K]

Pete,

My vote would be to use the cheap and readily available mega-squirt or something similar versus the in-house developed or Motec options. No sense re-inventing the wheel and increasing the conversion package price. Single sourcing continues to get us pushed into corners that just escalate costs - if they are selling this as an economical solution then tweak it to decrease the conversion costs. That would be a refreshing change from other proposals for it to come in BELOW their estimates. I didn't think this proposal was set in stone just yet so if there is room for changes that make sense let's consider them.

Joe

A plug-n-play megasquirt costs $800 and a little bit more for a conversion harness, plus it wouldnt even remotely come close to the refinement that the HPD ecu would provide (just a guess depending on my experience with megasquirt and 200x era OEM ECUs). Plus, at the price that HPD is asking for a conversion kit ($2500), I dont think their ECU will cost much more than that figure if you were to buy it separately (and the chances that you need a replacement are remote).

I am not even getting into how easy it is to change the internal code making cheating a trivial task for someone familiar with it. Therefore, I think its a bad, bad idea to go with anything other than a spec ECU that comes with the engine.

[Bill Steele]

A plug-n-play megasquirt costs $800 and a little bit more for a conversion harness, plus it wouldnt even remotely come close to the refinement that the HPD ecu would provide (just a guess depending on my experience with megasquirt and 200x era OEM ECUs). Plus, at the price that HPD is asking for a conversion kit ($2500), I dont think their ECU will cost much more than that figure if you were to buy it separately (and the chances that you need a replacement are remote).

I am not even getting into how easy it is to change the internal code making cheating a trivial task for someone familiar with it. Therefore, I think its a bad, bad idea to go with anything other than a spec ECU that comes with the engine.

I would tend to agree. I converted a twin carb air cooled engine to EFI using a Megasquirt ECU. I built the thing myself (the MS ECU and Relay board as well as the car harness) and while I am a pretty good hand at lead bending, soldering and trimming, the packaging in general is definitely not ready for prime time racing wise.

[racer27]

If the FIT is not adopted into FF, and another class gets formed I'd go there. If another class were to be formed (Not really a fan) I'd hope the opportunity is taken to make some other adjustments, like:

- Specing a Hard Tire (For most of us, probably the single largest cost saving rule that could be adopted)
- Going to the more common FC sized rim/tire combo - Not critical, but a nice to have
- Any other low cost rule cleanup/clarification that long term reduces cost/complexity, helping cement this class as high value for dollar class

[racer27]

I spoke to my local engine guy last night. His interpretation is that looks like Honda has put significant effort into this and really wants it to move forward.

Question was then raised as to what happens if it is rejected, or gets delayed, waiting for Ford?

1. Honda could re-package it and try again

2. Honda could say, the heck with it and write off effort already undertaken

3. Honda could take this proposal elsewhere. We're pretty sure Honda does not want to be in the race sanctioning business, so maybe they look for another sanctioning body. A National SCCA competitor like NASA? Don't know, OW segment may be too small for NASA to take much interest in.

How about to a National Cycling or Road Racing Karting Sanctioning body? They already have relationships in those areas. If you talk racing ladder, the FFit could be perceived as next logical step up from a Kart. It's a natural feeder.

I doubt #3 this would occur, but unless this is a sure thing, one can't assume Honda does not have a plan B.

[Joefisherff]

Thanks for the input on the mega-squirt I thought it was more refined. What about the other items? Are they open for tweaking the proposal?

[Bill Steele]

Thanks for the input on the mega-squirt I thought it was more refined. What about the other items? Are they open for tweaking the proposal?

My totally non inside track opinion is this deal as proposed in its most recent iteration is kind of an all or nothing deal.

I have heard rumors that Honda has a back up plan. Having worked in big companies most of my professional life, I would be shocked if they didn't have a backup plan.

Of course, I am shocked they are here at our doorstep offering the whole Fit proposal to a bunch of over the hill hobbyists with really small budgets, so maybe anything can happen.