Honda Letter from Runoffs

[Bob Wright]

See, its all in the interpretation of the charts

Actually, I don't remember the fall off of FF entry when I was running them (1980-1985) until the DB1 showed up in late 1983-1984, but then I don't have the stats other than that chart you posted. The fields were huge both at the regional and national level in the NE and always had their own run group.

On the topic of overall entry...I had no idea of the growth of entries at the regional level during the period, and that would certainly make me change my other statements.

I like the idea of the FIT, regardless (even if it isn't my sandbox).

[openwheel]

Ever worked on fuel and spark maps?
I didn't think so. If you had then you would realize that with a locked down map and a restrictor you can blueprint to your hearts content and it just is not gonna matter.

Spec Miata blueprints and has a restictor but the STOCK ecu can still make adjustments based on what it sees from the sensor array thus yielding gains.
This will not happen with a fixed map.

I am done with these threads. The black helicopter reasoning of some people is giving me a headache.
I am looking to possibly join FF, but it will not happen with an antique tractor motor.

-What sensor "array" does a 1994,95,96 or 97 Miata have???? Take it from someone that has run the class quite competitively and served on the Spec Miata advisory comittee, there is no sensor array! There is a single oxygen sensor on an OBD1 car. The ECU runs a single WOT fuel and ignition map and even though it's required to run a restrictor plate it benefits greatly (10%+HP) from blueprinting. In fact all model year Miatas with or without restrictor plates benefit greatly from blueprinting.

-I sure hope the Honda gains nothing from blueprinting that would be great for the class.

[openwheel]

Guys, if you dont know, Openwheel is Tony Coello and I think he is deserved a bit more respect given his accomplishments in FF. I had the same questions that Tony expressed about the Miata engine. Everyone, including those in favor of the Honda proposal, has serious questions about what this would mean for the class. The more questions that are asked and the more information that is provided, the better we will all be able to come to grips with this thing. So let's keep the discussion going and let's keep it positive.

Take care.

Tom

Tom thanks for the comment above! I just want to add that I normally don't even look at apexspeed because the bench racing aspect of these forums has no interest to me. However, I really like FF and I don't want to see people making decisions on the future of FF based on mis-information they get from these forums. Anybody can post on these forums and I just want to share my experience with those interested in hopes of the FF community making informed decisions about the future of FF.

[Chas Shaffer]

... indicates that the growth of racing in this country is taking place somewhere not SCCA. We know this empirically just looking at NASA, Skippy, Vintage, etc.

... and competing pro series are taking their fair share of club entires ... I couldn't resist.


I just don't see a down side to this. If you have a kent sell it and for the cost of your next rebuild you can do the conversion. If you need an engine the cost is the same for a new kent or new honda conversion. If you have a top kent and don't care about money you'll still have your advantage but the middle and lower budget guys can see major benefits.

FC has proven that parity can be achieved. It was painful but a lot of lessons were learned which will make it much easier to achieve in FF. If adjustments are needed it costs about $20 to replace a restrictor plate and nothing to change an ECU map.

I strongly suggest sealing the engines. We didn't seal zetec's to allow junkyard builds but to date I don't know of anyone who has done it. Even if someone does build their own they can still have it sealed for a fee. It eliminates all the concerns about blueprinting, new parts or any other future improvements.

[Matt King]

However, I really like FF and I don't want to see people making decisions on the future of FF based on mis-information they get from these forums.

I know what you mean. There is a lot of FUD being disseminated by the anti-Fit camp!

[rmccown]

Right now I couldn't race my bench because it is covered with tools, and a Hewland. Maybe once I get my car back together.

[Bob Wright]

But Chas...we are SCCA ...and I would retract some of my statements given Stan's data about overall participation.

Tony- I think the difference with SM vs the Zetec and, from what I saw at the 40th, the FIT- there is no O2 sensor and therefore no feedback to the ECU-but ask QS, I'm just a dumb driver. What I have been told is there is no appreciable difference between a blueprinted Zetec and a crate motor.

I only know of two junk yard Zetecs in cars- one was home built then sent to QS for sealing and is working just fine within spec; the other is in the NE running in Club as a FA.

[R. Pare]

-W

-I sure hope the Honda gains nothing from blueprinting that would be great for the class.

"However, I really like FF and I don't want to see people making decisions on the future of FF based on mis-information they get from these forums."

Maybe the fact that blueprinting is illegal will rest your concerns.

Or maybe the fact that any replacement parts have to be totally stock, unmodified Honda parts, severely limiting any possible gains since the tolerances are already way tighter than what you may be able to massage other manufacturers parts to.

Continuing to assert that the engines can be blueprinted is mis-information as well.

[Fred Michael]

-What sensor "array" does a 1994,95,96 or 97 Miata have???? Take it from someone that has run the class quite competitively and served on the Spec Miata advisory comittee, there is no sensor array! There is a single oxygen sensor on an OBD1 car. The ECU runs a single WOT fuel and ignition map and even though it's required to run a restrictor plate it benefits greatly (10%+HP) from blueprinting. In fact all model year Miatas with or without restrictor plates benefit greatly from blueprinting.

-I sure hope the Honda gains nothing from blueprinting that would be great for the class.

Ok you sucked me back in.

MAF, Coolant temp sensor. TPS ,O2.

Stock ECU's adjust fuel trim based on inputs from these sensors whether OBD1 or OBD2.

From reading between the lines on the Miata boards there is a lot more than "Blueprinting" going on in those motors.
The Zetec is a more apples to apples comparison.

[RussMcB]

Maybe the fact that blueprinting is illegal will rest your concerns.

Sorry for the possible hijack: Can tech inspectors tell if an engine is blueprinted?

[mblanc]

-
-I sure hope the Honda gains nothing from blueprinting that would be great for the class.

"HOPING" seems to be what there is a lot of, and that's an odd way to get to a good set of rules.


As far as 'blueprinting' being misinformation, I would say probably not. There are specifications and ranges of tolerances in a factory build. Those can either stack up against you, be somewhere in range, or add up to your benefit.

per proposed D.3.a.1
".....must conform to OEM specifications as stated in Honda Fit Factory Services Manual....."

Using something as simple as deck height that will have a min spec, I would think any good enterprising racer would immediately take his new Fit, disassemble, resurface the block to minimum, -within the allowable service limit and legal limit of course (add a list of other things as long as we have it apart) and then reassemble.

That would be worm #1, of a large can.

How much is that $2500 engine now?

Would love to read next, the list off ALL the Miata engine tricks that are done, to get that 10%. Maybe some others would realize what can and can't be controlled.

[openwheel]

Continuing to assert that the engines can be blueprinted is mis-information as well.

Ok, I here you. For everyone that has read my previous posts I must make this clear. If Honda and SCCA say don't blueprint your engine in the rules, don't blueprint your engine. It is not legal in that case and you should not do anything to your engine in an attempt to achieve additional performance.

[openwheel]

But Chas...we are SCCA ...and I would retract some of my statements given Stan's data about overall participation.

Tony- I think the difference with SM vs the Zetec and, from what I saw at the 40th, the FIT- there is no O2 sensor and therefore no feedback to the ECU-but ask QS, I'm just a dumb driver. What I have been told is there is no appreciable difference between a blueprinted Zetec and a crate motor.

I only know of two junk yard Zetecs in cars- one was home built then sent to QS for sealing and is working just fine within spec; the other is in the NE running in Club as a FA.

Yep, I think you are 100% correct. Sounds like QS feels there is nothing to be gained by blueprinting the Honda. It probably is much more like the Zetec as opposed to the Miata and it definitely sounds like all the Zetecs are pretty darn equal and bone stock according to QS who seals the Zetecs.

That is good to hear, this looks good for the future of FF. No need to lobby for competition adjustments, no need to seal the engines either down the road and no need to spend money with an engine builder other than a rebuild 4 or 5 years from now.

Good chatting with you guys!

[openwheel]

Sorry for the possible hijack: Can tech inspectors tell if an engine is blueprinted?

Russ, Definitely! Tech will be able to pick up on any blueprinting easily. They would not have put it in the rules proposal if they could not spot it and enforce it.

[Fred Michael]

"HOPING" seems to be what there is a lot of, and that's an odd way to get to a good set of rules.


As far as 'blueprinting' being misinformation, I would say probably not. There are specifications and ranges of tolerances in a factory build. Those can either stack up against you, be somewhere in range, or add up to your benefit.

Using something as simple as deck height that will have a min spec, I would think any good enterprising racer would immediately take his new Fit, disassemble, resurface the block to minimum, -within the allowable service limit and legal limit of course (add a list of other things as long as we have it apart) and then reassemble.

That would be worm #1, of a large can.

How much is that $2500 engine now?

Would love to read next, the list off ALL the Miata engine tricks that are done, to get that 10%. Maybe some others would realize what can and can't be controlled.

Parts must be as delivered from Honda. So much for decking the block.Or optimizing the internal surfaces of the block for better oil control or about 20 other things that are involved in a true blueprinting of an engine.

Spec Miata engine rules have a lot of issues so it is not an apples to apples comparison for the Fit proposal.

[mblanc]

Parts must be as delivered from Honda. So much for decking the block.Or ..........

Yeah, right.. Just like you can't surface the head for more compression,

oh no, wait,

That's unless you read D.3.f.2

[mike g.]

Sorry for the possible hijack: Can tech inspectors tell if an engine is blueprinted?

Yeah - it is pretty easy to tell.

Blueprinted:


Not blueprinted:


See?

(I kid, i kid! its friday)

[mblanc]

Thanks for making me laugh !!

hope everybody else is too,

happy Friday,


(at least it's the right color)



;-)

[Drivers Services]

As we slowly wind down to another locked thread..........

[Fred Michael]

With the compression ratio and combustion chamber volume speced, it just is not going to make the huge gain you are afraid of.
In fact having seen the way Honda manufacturing tolerences are, I know it will not be possible for significant gains and remain within the spec.

Once again I am done with this nonsense.

[R. Pare]

As far as 'blueprinting' being misinformation, I would say probably not. There are specifications and ranges of tolerances in a factory build. Those can either stack up against you, be somewhere in range, or add up to your benefit.

per proposed D.3.a.1
".....must conform to OEM specifications as stated in Honda Fit Factory Services Manual....."

Using something as simple as deck height that will have a min spec, I would think any good enterprising racer would immediately take his new Fit, disassemble, resurface the block to minimum, -within the allowable service limit and legal limit of course (add a list of other things as long as we have it apart) and then reassemble.

Except that that is a modification that is not specified as allowed, therefore it is not allowed.

[R. Pare]

Yeah, right.. Just like you can't surface the head for more compression,

oh no, wait,

That's unless you read D.3.f.2

EVERYBODY is allowed to do that, so your point is?

[sracing]

I didn't think so. If you had then you would realize that with a locked down map and a restrictor you can blueprint to your hearts content and it just is not gonna matter.

Spec Miata blueprints and has a restictor but the STOCK ecu can still make adjustments based on what it sees from the sensor array thus yielding gains.
This will not happen with a fixed map.

While I am a 110% supporter of the Fit proposal, I do have to input here. Both of the above statements are totally wrong. I work with ECU maps EVERY day. They control certain parameters, but in no real way do they control HP to any certain limits when any "blueprinting" or other mechanical changes are made.

That being said, the Fit is still an excellent idea for the class. (and we have sent our letters of support)

[sracing]

In regards to the 02 sensors mentioned earler: An 02 sensor plays no role in engine racing performance or HP. The 02 sensor is ONLY used when idleing or in light cruise. The ECU maps control all engine perameters beyond those points. An 02 sensor is only used to control a/f at idle, light cruise and to turn on the check engine lamp when things seem amiss.

[Bob Wright]

Sracing- I'll repeat that I'm just a dumb driver...but we control the Zetec hp in FC cars with a restrictor and a map which for all intent and purpose seems to work. The FIT is patterned after that same principal with a similar modern motor, so why would the result be any different? I've spent long hours on the phone and in person with Sandy and Eric educating myself as to how one controls the motors and how the maps work with some necessity. The results are pretty self evident as far as I can tell. If I understand the rules correctly, either you have a legal motor turning out X hp +/- some %, or you're cheating. There's not much leeway.

[sracing]

Bob Wright,
The ECU controls the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing. It does not control air flow, cam timing, compression ratio, charge temps, and several other things that are externally maintained. It has no idea of the torque or HP nor can it directly control it. If you assume that all mechanical issues are identical then standard maps in the ECU do keep the playing field level. But "blueprinting" for one example includes port matching. 3 more CFM air causes the ECU to add the pertinent additional fuel. Thus more HP.

As I said I am totally FOR the Fit, but want the facts to be real.

[LJennings]

Yeah, right.. Just like you can't surface the head for more compression,

oh no, wait,

That's unless you read D.3.f.2

Ok, what happens if you lose a radiator hose, cook the engine so that the head and block need resurfaced. The Kent days would be $100 to resurface and $45.00 head gasket. It sounds like a $2500 Fit fix.

That is one of the parts of the proposal that I do not care for.

[PaulT]

So after reading all the posts about blueprinting not being allowed. I have two real questions, not sarcastic rhetorical ones.

1. If you have to use stock parts without any modifications, then your junkyard motor isn't as cheap any more. Don't you replace now have to replace all the moving parts just to be sure that they haven't been damaged or risk a blow up? Or at least magnaflux/crack test everything? This also means that any damage to any part requires a replacement part. So a spun rod bearing = new crank and new rod. Though luckily not the $800 crank and $160 rod that exists in the Kent.

2. I know there are lots of levels to blueprinting. But in the most basic sense it is machining parts to make them match the stock measurements. There is a tolerance range on stock parts. So some combination of these tolerance must be better than others, right? Or is the intent that the minor de-tune will minimize this effect? Also how are the inspectors going to know, are they looking for machining marks? Clearly the parts will be in tolerance as that is the point of blueprinting.

I guess #1 & #2 both kind of grew to be multi-part questions...

Paul

[Bill Steele]

Bob Wright,
The ECU controls the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing. It does not control air flow, cam timing, compression ratio, charge temps, and several other things that are externally maintained. It has no idea of the torque or HP nor can it directly control it. If you assume that all mechanical issues are identical then standard maps in the ECU do keep the playing field level. But "blueprinting" for one example includes port matching. 3 more CFM air causes the ECU to add the pertinent additional fuel. Thus more HP.

As I said I am totally FOR the Fit, but want the facts to be real.

Jim, so it sounds like a sealed engine is mandatory to maintain control over the actual output. I have been for "no sealing" for a long time as I feel supporting our long time engine builders is the right idea.

Maybe a separate class, call it Formula Honda (FH) is the right idea. Say we duplicate the FF GCR and only change the engine specs to Fit. We throw away the restrictor bringing the engine up to a genuine good National Kent level (116-117 HP), we allow the new class to run side by side with FF right out of the gate in Nationals and the Runoff's (this keeps Honda happy, along with guys like me who will convert), we spec a hard slick tire and negotiate a good deal on the price (this will keep the FF guys that run sticky GY or Hoosiers happy, as well as me because of the good price) and Honda gets their own class with the name recognition that comes with it.

The downside is we are creating yet another class, but maybe in this case it makes sense. I think a lot of the guys contemplating switching would still switch. It would reduce a lot of friction within the ranks as well.

[LJennings]

Jim, so it sounds like a sealed engine is mandatory to maintain control over the actual output. I have been for "no sealing" for a long time as I feel supporting our long time engine builders is the right idea.

Locks are only for honest people. It has been rumored that during the early days of SR guys were doing their own engine rebuilds and buying there own seals and marking device from the same company as Enterprise.

Same for the ECU. If you know the right person anything can be done. I bet modified ECU's have run in events, have passed tech and never have been found. Until you have complete access to the source code anything goes.

[Bob Wright]

Ok- we need a pro engine builder to clear this up- my understanding in these modern motors is that everything is so close that there is no situation where you can "port the intakes to specification" and add 3 hp because they are already there and there is nothing more to be gained, not to mention you can't port anything under the rules.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that these modern motors are so well built you can't improve them within the rules; blueprinting doesn't gain you anything. Somebody chime in here, I'm out of my league with details.

[Bill Steele]

Locks are only for honest people. It has been rumored that during the early days of SR guys were doing there on engine rebuilds and buying there own seals and marking device from the same company as Enterprise.

Same for the ECU. If you know the right person anything can be done. I bet modified ECU's have run in events, have passed tech and never have been found. Until you have complete access to the source code anything goes.

On the ECU, you have a checksum, sorry. For the guy with a dick so short he is going to go to the lengths you describe with false seals, I say, ante up let's play. I never met a guy who could really drive that felt he needed to cheat like that, but then I never liked Sports Renault either.

While we are on the subject, it has been my experience it is always the guys with the complexes that worry about things like parity and cheating, the fast guys never worry cause they are out front.

[sracing]

Ok- we need a pro engine builder to clear this up- my understanding in these modern motors is that everything is so close that there is no situation where you can "port the intakes to specification" and add 3 hp because they are already there and there is nothing more to be gained, not to mention you can't port anything under the rules. .

All of the newer engines that we deal with from V10's to V6's are MUCH closer in tolerances. We have not done anything with the Fit (but we are in the process of getting the adapter built for the dyno). I suspect with a restrictor and sealed ECU, you would be hard pressed to find anything like 3% HP legally. If engines are mechanically identical (including temp and baro/maf sensors, etc.) the restrictor and controlled maps, willkeep them very close. My point was that a restrictor and ECU do not control HP alone.

[LJennings]

[quote=Bill Steele;229588]On the ECU, you have a checksum, sorry. For the guy with a dick so short he is going to go to the lengths you describe with false seals, /quote]


Regardless of the size of your manhood thing do happen.

[DanW]

Could this be what is on Fords' mind? Purely speculation and a google search:

From 2006, but still more modern than the kent...
http://www.gizmag.com/go/3199/picture/6102/

[jwr914]

The day the FasTrack from the CRB was posted that allowed shaving the head, decking the block, boring and sleeving the engines for SM I sold my car for a profit. Today you can't give them away. The FIT would follow the same downfall just as the Ford engines have. The moment the CRB starts allowing engine builders inside the motor the costs skyrocket for little or no gain. You can do more with a modern ECU than you can with a machine shop in less time and with less money. Put them together and you run the costs right off the spreadsheet page. A sealed ECU that can be swapped in grid is the only way to make this work.

James Rogerson
CSR, AS, HP and STU

[Bill Steele]

[quote=LJennings;229590]

On the ECU, you have a checksum, sorry. For the guy with a dick so short he is going to go to the lengths you describe with false seals, /quote]


Regardless of the size of your manhood thing do happen.

Sorry if I hit a nerve, it certainly wasn't my intention.

[John Merriman]

QUOTE BILL STEELE

"Maybe a separate class, call it Formula Honda (FH) is the right idea. Say we duplicate the FF GCR and only change the engine specs to Fit. We throw away the restrictor bringing the engine up to a genuine good National Kent level (116-117 HP), we allow the new class to run side by side with FF right out of the gate in Nationals and the Runoff's (this keeps Honda happy, along with guys like me who will convert), we spec a hard slick tire and negotiate a good deal on the price (this will keep the FF guys that run sticky GY or Hoosiers happy, as well as me because of the good price) and Honda gets their own class with the name recognition that comes with it."


Bill, I agree completely. It's only common sense. Why shake up a good thing? And why NOT allow Honda to do its thing? In which case it is a WIN-WIN deal.