"Classic" dash vs data aq dash

[rmccown]

Howdy
Currently I have a tachometer, oil pressure, and water temp gauges in my VD. I'm about to install a G2X data system, and am curious how many of you forgo the classic gauges, and just use the digital electronic gizmos.

[cooleyjb]

Howdy
Currently I have a tachometer, oil pressure, and water temp gauges in my VD. I'm about to install a G2X data system, and am curious how many of you forgo the classic gauges, and just use the digital electronic gizmos.

In the Van Diemen I never had analog gauges and only used the AIM dash.

In the SRF I have right now I still have the analogs but that's more because I haven't taken the time to pull them out as they will leave big ugly holes in the dash.

[Marshall Mauney]

I started using a digital dash on the wheel several years ago (Aim first, then CDS), and I see no reason to ever go back. It's far easier to see, gives more information, and the guages don't vibrate and shake the way analog dials do.

[Ken Rozeboom]

Aim first, then CDS

Was there a specific reason to switch or was it because that what was in the car?

[Peter Horvath]

OK, but if you want to retain the analog gauges, what do you do with the digital steering wheel after you install the date acquisition system? Can you simply not install it/unplug it/tape it around the corner?
I know it sounds dumb, but what if you don't want the driver to watch the steering wheel while he's on the track?
Without the digital steering wheel, are there any problems with playback, when you feed the data into the PC for replay in the paddock?

[GeoffRain]

I just switched from mechanical gauges to an IQ3. It took a weekend to get things sorted out but I love it now:

+ Programmable shift lights
+ Programmable warning lights for oil & water
+ Dash has "pages" so you can configure it to display only the info you need for a situation
+ Lap timer / counter built in, eliminates another box in the car
+ No pressurized oil line running up behind the dash
+ Weighs less than all the stuff I took out with the old dash

The G2X uses the same data acquisition software as my dash. I don't know how it stacks up against other brands, but compared to having nothing it is FANTASTIC.


Geoff

[10rmotor]

Interesting topic - I'm kinda going through the same thing. I've had analog gauges in the car forever, and recently got a good deal on a spa integrated dash with analog tach movement that I've always wanted. After convincing myself that the dash works (bought it used from third or fourth owner without sensors) I'm ready to pull the trigger and buy the 4 basic temp and pressure sensors and install it. Is there anybody out there that had analog, switched to a similar dash package, and regretted it?

[Nardi]

Interesting responses. I have used both and actually prefer the analog.

[Matt King]

I've raced cars that had both analog gauges and a digital dash and a digital dash only. There is something to be said for the quick visial confirmation of a needle on an analog gauge once you are conditioned to where that needle is supposed to be. But the integrated displays with lap time, shift lights, warning lights, etc. really are useful once you are used to seeing all the information in one spot. As far as accuracy of the gauges, I don't think there is an advantage one way or the other. It's really a preferance about how you want the driver's info displayed.

[Don Denomme]

You may be missing the point of a GOOD digital dash. Driver info inside the car is only part of the issue. You can get most all the in-car info you need from analog gauges. It's when you get out of the car that the digital dash comes into play.

I changed to a digital dash in my Club Ford several years ago. I can download data to my laptop, along with a track map, and see, in real time, what the engine and car were doing out on the track. What were my RMPs at a particular point on the track? Should I change gears for better speed and lower lap times? Did I have an oil pressure drop in a particular corner? If I had an over-heating problem...when did it start and how high did it get...and for how long?

If you have a popular AIM system, you can work with others who have AIM timing beacons and set up beacons at several points on the track to get segment times during a test day. You can get a great deal of info from a digital dash. Most all of it is gathered when you get out of the car.

[Matt King]

I didn't think this discussion was about data logging. The digital display has almost nothing to do with the type of data logging you are talking about other than displaying lap times to the driver during a session, which can be done with a rudimentary display. You can data log every conceivable performance and data parameter a car is capable of generating using many systems on the market that don't even have a display.

It's not either/or. You can have full data logging capabilities in a car that also has analog gauges.

[George Main]

The argument against digital dashes in the early 90's was that you had to "read" a digital vs. glancing at a position of the needle (which as we all do, put them in the same pointing location at normal temp).

The argument became a moot one when the alarms and lights allowed a digital dash to display a value only when something was not in a normal range. In other words nothing got put on the display that was not needed. This was one of the more important features of a digital dash- "less is more".
But to do this, the display has to be trusted with the temps, pressures of your engine and trans and that the setup of the software in the dash is correct and the sensors that are driving the display are of a high enough quality and resolution. Imagine a 40 dollar pressure sensor being the reason your 15k motor blew up or something as simple as the wrong calibration numbers getting put into the dash.... you won't know it's wrong until it's too late.

Even systems that have not dealt with RF noise (wiring and system filtering) very well, can cause the readings to not be accurate.

Fortunately most of the companies that have a history of dealing with race cars have developed their product in these areas and it is less of a concern, but even the most expensive systems can be fooled into the wrong numbers/readings with something as simple as the user input of wrong numbers... "Garbage in, garbage out".

If you are selecting a system and your motor and trans are expensive and managed by a system that was on the inexpensive (read cheap) end of the spectrum, don't skimp on your investment .

Some racers won't even use a simple pressure gauge that's electric for this very reason, they only trust mechanical gauges, some have had problems with electric gauges, that for whatever reason failed and took the motor with it.

Some of the advantages of a digital dash that gauges don't offer like performance monitors (replacing spotters with stopwatches) and lap counters/timers (pit boards and stopwatches are cheaper) are very helpful to the driver though at the same time can distract a driver pushing his envelope, if the design of it isn't ample enough and designed well enough to keep a distraction limited to the driver info.

Something to think about in considering a dash, not speaking about the data acquisition... the dash, other that the performance monitor will not win you one race, make you any faster than you are now, or make you a better driver..... but it can prevent you from losing a race or a motor.

The dash choice vs gauges, from a performance aspect has so little to do with making a better racing program. The data acquisition logging and especially the software package for analyzing the data and how the data is analyzed is 95% of the performance that is very quickly changed and improved.

The dash is the least amount of value in owning a system, and is only valuable in protecting your investment (gauges can do this very well). The "Real" value is the DA and how it is used. This realization can be see in the first 10 minutes you put it on a car and can be an instant improvement that will continue for it's life and the only reason, IMHO, for owning one.

The Dash is the Flash,
The Analysis is the Catalyst.

[Don Denomme]

I agree with what you say. Perhaps I should have started off by saying that either system will work for you when it comes to in-car info. If all you want IS in-car info, save your money and buy a fresh set of tires. That will benefit you more than a change to the dash.

Don

[Marshall Mauney]

Was there a specific reason to switch or was it because that what was in the car?

CDS was in the car when I bought it.

[Ken Rozeboom]

I have used a CDS DA system for several years with an in-car display for just speed and lap times. White on black needles are sure easy to use. Also I see that CDS is now into its 3rd generation of their CoPilot display - the usual electronic gismo obsolescence.

However, as one who rarely has any pit-lane support (and when I do the radio refuses to function) a display providing laps to go and/or time would be a real asset, it seems to me.

I did switch to their GPS system - no more lugging the beacon and battery around (and forgetting it on Sunday). CDS sells GPS for other systems, such as AIM.

[10rmotor]

Don't want to hijack the thread but I think the OP is going to have a DA system regardless, and is only asking about digital dash Vs. gauges. I already have a CDS system looking over my shoulder. I've always wanted this type of digital dash and traded it for stuff I wasn't going to use. I have lap time and wheel speed through the CDS system, so I'm only replacing analog gauges with the digital dash system.

George, your points are well taken.

Other than the coolness factor, any opinions?

[Peter Horvath]

It's not either/or. You can have full data logging capabilities in a car that also has analog gauges.

This is what I was after, Matt. So I don't need to install the digital steering wheel, when I buy the date acquisition system?

[George Main]

This is what I was after, Matt. So I don't need to install the digital steering wheel, when I buy the date acquisition system?

Depends on the system and whether they have a seperate data logging box vs the logging inside of the dash. Some companies do both, some don't....

[Matt King]

Traqmate, AIM Evo 4, Race Pack GX2, and Race Technology DL1, are a few off the top of my head that are standalone loggers with or without a dash display.

[CDS]

CDS also has a logging system that is not a "dash". It is the all new Commander 3v system that incorporates data logging and video overlay in one box. Details are here:

http://www.competitiondata.com/comma..._commander.htm

[Marshall Mauney]

Pardon my straying off-topic, but since CDS is posting in this thread.....

How would I perform a calibration on a CDS wide-band A/F sensor?

[George Main]

Pardon my straying off-topic, but since CDS is posting in this thread.....

How would I perform a calibration on a CDS wide-band A/F sensor?

Go to the calibration page the *..LInk software you have (depending on if you upgraded it or if it's a new system or not). Select the sensor for calibration, when the page loads, ONE of the choices will be "load calibration", select this then select from the list,... AFA.

If it is not present in the calibration sensor list, you can manually input the calibration for your lamda's by getting a spec sheet for your AFA from Sara at CDS. If you happen to be at the runoffs, look for Peter's CDS trailer, he's there and can help you with it.

hope that helps,

George
CDS Rep.
SpeedsenseConsulting

[George Main]

BTW, CDS has not only seperate data loggers and dashes with data logging in the dash but also has Video Imprinting software (Informer) that now also logs data.

[CDS]

Pardon my straying off-topic, but since CDS is posting in this thread.....

How would I perform a calibration on a CDS wide-band A/F sensor?

Marshall:

The base calibration for our WBAF-2 is 0-5 volts electrical and 10 to 20 A/F ratio ( the engineering units). That controller also has a trim calibration screw for doing a free air calibration. It is on the paperwork that came with the unit, if you need another copy come down to our trailer near paddock stall 28.

-Peter