Fit in CF/SF question

[Wren]

so there is NO single place to get all the numbers! and there is NO guarantee from the potential alternate engine supplier on fixed performance.......... can you say Elite manifold once slowly??

Performance will be controlled by the SCCA. The part numbers are not all fixed yet. Honda has not begun to manufacture some of the parts yet as they are waiting on approval, so all of the part numbers are not fixed. Maybe you could explain how this has anything to do with the Elan manifold fiasco because I am not tracking.

not in FF, maybe in sections that regulate classes with year round whining! fixed configurations under explicit club control are a simple means to eliminate performance and cost creep. it's what we have with the current GCR as written.

I was not talking about parity, and neither were you. You were implying that Honda would be able to substitue a part and increase the performance of their engine and there would be nothing the SCCA could do about it. That is not the case.

so you're not working on a contract or sub-contract being paid for by the potential alternate engine supplier or a customer whose purchase is contingent on the potential alternate engine provider's proposal being approved , you're just an interested guy with a Cortina or Kent powered FFord ?

No I am not being paid by Honda in any way. Why would you ever think that? Do you really think that Honda is paying people to come on message boards and talk up their engine proposal? I will pay full retail for any Fit parts from HPD should the engine be approved
I am unaware of any car purchase that is contingent on the Honda being approved, but I don't really keep up. If the Honda is approved and we sell 10 cars, I will still be tens of thousands of dollars in the hole for purchase of equipment and material. I have no interest in making money off of racing. I could make more money sewing shoes together for Nike in China. We sell our stuff for less than anyone else that I am aware of and are absolutely not motivated by making money.
You really need to lay out the conspiracy that you think is going on behind the scenes in the SCCA. Right now, to me, you just look paranoid. Did you really think that I was being paid by Honda?

[rmccown]

[Stan Clayton]

[Stan Clayton]

so you're not working on a contract or sub-contract being paid for by the potential alternate engine supplier or a customer whose purchase is contingent on the potential alternate engine provider's proposal being approved

In the interest of full disclosure...Dauntless have been retained to build a Fit engine cover by a cash-paying customer -- not a contingency customer. Of course, over the past two years we have built more than a dozen Ford engine covers, so I'm not sure what conclusions one can draw from that information, other than that we be ho's for motorsports-related composites work.

you're just an interested guy with a Cortina or Kent powered FFord ?

Nope. I just own a FF chassis that I'd like to power with something developed more recently than 1958.

[Wren]

If any of the paid Honda shills on here could send me a PM on how to sign up for the secret Honda PR program, I would appreciate it.

[racer27]

If any of the paid Honda shills on here could send me a PM on how to sign up for the secret Honda PR program, I would appreciate it.

Now that's funny! Got to clean the monitor now ... Thanks!

[rmccown]

If any of the paid Honda shills on here could send me a PM on how to sign up for the secret Honda PR program, I would appreciate it.

The first rule of Honda PR program is you don't talk about Honda PR program...

[John Robinson II]

so there is NO single place to get all the numbers! and there is NO guarantee from the potential alternate engine supplier on fixed performance.......... can you say Elite manifold once slowly??
Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

Art,
If you remember what transpired with the "manifold" controversy, then the answer to your implication is there, THe manifold was not placed in service as an alternate part. It still had to be approved by the boards.
And besides, it was not an ELITE manifold, but an ELAN product. Get your stories straight before you show everyone just how biased you really are, but then again, if I had spent all the time and money to make the original engine (cuz we all run the alternate engine cuz it is better) the piece to have I sure would not want someone adding to the target.

John

[Bill Steele]

Can someone tell me officially when the BoD meeting is scheduled that will include the vote on the Fit proposal?

I went on National's web site but could not find it.

[Stan Clayton]

Soon, Bill, soon. Send in your input tonight.

[dc]

Can someone tell me officially when the BoD meeting is scheduled that will include the vote on the Fit proposal?

I went on National's web site but could not find it.

I believe the BoD vote is Saturday.

[Art Smith]

John-

Elite for Elan is nothing more than a "senior moment"; trust me yours too are on the way.

you're correct in concluding I'm 100% against the alternate engine proposal as disclosed to date. I feel it's a bad idea, floated in a curious and incomplete manner at best, and that includes a configuration control approach not even up to inept junior engineering standards. a list of vendor parts numbers is NOT configuration control, it's an embarrassng joke where the vendor is in total control. vendor part numbers as the name implys belong to the vendor. the vendor is therefore free to change material, machining operations, tolerances, finishing, dimensions, testing, ............. without asking anyone's permission. vendors selling vendor part numbers in a market where there is no performance specification or interface control drawing are in total control of supply; they can sell who to whom ever they want or not, they can sell the parts at any price they deem consistent with fair market value, and they are in a position to dictate terms and conditions of sale including delivery date after receipt of order (ARO) which is critical to most racers.

can you think of a sole source vendor part that recently caused a major flap and the BOD chose (correctly in my view given the ugly choices) not to approve a second source?? how about one that was caused by a vendor choosing not to sell their part to a competitor for sound business reasons from their perspective?

the FF community has a written set of rules where the club has a great deal of control over the configuration of most of the parts (some are explicitly unrestricted) being used in our engines. I don't want to see that given away in exchange for year round whining about parity or lack there of.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Wren]

you're correct in concluding I'm 100% against the alternate engine proposal as disclosed to date. I feel it's a bad idea, floated in a curious and incomplete manner at best, and that includes a configuration control approach not even up to inept junior engineering standards. a list of vendor parts numbers is NOT configuration control, it's an embarrassng joke where the vendor is in total control. vendor part numbers as the name implys belong to the vendor. the vendor is therefore free to change material, machining operations, tolerances, finishing, dimensions, testing, ............. without asking anyone's permission. vendors selling vendor part numbers in a market where there is no performance specification or interface control drawing are in total control of supply; they can sell who to whom ever they want or not, they can sell the parts at any price they deem consistent with fair market value, and they are in a position to dictate terms and conditions of sale including delivery date after receipt of order (ARO) which is critical to most racers.

Art,

Once again, the SCCA will control the power output from the engine. It will not be left to Honda. The same language is used in other classes without issue. Those other classes may argue about parity constantly, but it has nothing to do with the language here, it is SCCA's problem completely. The manufacturers do not get to set the power output of their engine. Maybe you could share with us one of the times that a manufacturer changed a part while keeping the same part number, made more horsepower, and the SCCA did not notice or do anything about it?
I guess that Honda will be able to sell or not sell to anyone they like, but I have a hard time imagining that will become a problem. That is a problem right now with current FF engines. Maybe you could enlighten all of us? Are you really concerned for how long it is going to take for the customer to get their parts from Honda?
You seem to believe that there is a massive conspiracy here by Honda. For someone who doesn't seem to have talked to anyone from Honda or the BOD and who had not even read the proposal until this week, you have an awful lot of inside information. I wish you would share whatever it is that you know that none of us know.

What exactly would it take to make you happy?

[stevestaveley]

Can someone tell me officially when the BoD meeting is scheduled that will include the vote on the Fit proposal?

I went on National's web site but could not find it.

Bill, Mike Lewis (So Pac rep on the Board of Directors of SCCA) was at our board of governors (Cal Club) last night and left this AM for Topeka for the Board of Directors meeting.

I believe he told me the Fit proposal is on their agenda for this weekend. The action they could take, is to defer action of course.

Steve Staveley
Cal Club RE
FF 59

[rmccown]

You seem to believe that there is a massive conspiracy here by Honda. For someone who doesn't seem to have talked to anyone from Honda or the BOD and who had not even read the proposal until this week, you have an awful lot of inside information. I wish you would share whatever it is that you know that none of us know.

[Art Smith]

John's helper:

"Once again, the SCCA will control the power output from the engine."

until you or someone else shows me the means of control envisioned AND where it's written in black & white, reciting your chant above only demonstrates your blind trust in the incumbents and your willingness to follow them over the cliff. is someone thinking mobile water brake dyno's that can be hauled to the track?? is someone thinking about impounding the first and second finishing alternate engines and sending them back to the SCCA's R&D facility for inspection?? is someone thinking about being able to claim any alternate engine Sunday afternoon for the price of a new engine from the potential alternate engine supplier? or is the plan the competitors are forced to protest suspect cars?? what is the plan and where is it written?? where is the horsepower and torque curve that will be enforced under what test conditions? if it's not written down no one has anywhere to hang their hat..........................

in the industry I worked in we were taught to trust our suppliers who were selected very carefully and verify everything. I get you trust them; how will anything be verified if it's not written in black & white AND objectively verifiable?? what's the compliance verification approach.............................? it's NOT a little deal or a simple oversight or a senior moment; it's the potential cornerstone of racing going forward and appears to me to be completely missing.

dealing with missing substance is work; it's not the first or last time the messenger has not been appreciated because of the message...................................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[John LaRue]

Art,

We already have the problem with replacement parts and the Kent; witness the new forged pistons that were a boost in power. If anything the Honda will be more tightly controlled than the Kent as it is open to continued development. What will we do about new Kent blocks? How do we insure that these more stout blocks do not in some fashion provide an advantage over the originals? I appreciate the concerns, but they go both directions.

John LaRue

[Wren]

John's helper:

Huh?

until you or someone else shows me the means of control envisioned AND where it's written in black & white, reciting your chant above only demonstrates your blind trust in the incumbents and your willingness to follow them over the cliff. is someone thinking mobile water brake dyno's that can be hauled to the track?? is someone thinking about impounding the first and second finishing alternate engines and sending them back to the SCCA's R&D facility for inspection?? is someone thinking about being able to claim any alternate engine Sunday afternoon for the price of a new engine from the potential alternate engine supplier? or is the plan the competitors are forced to protest suspect cars?? what is the plan and where is it written?? where is the horsepower and torque curve that will be enforced under what test conditions? if it's not written down no one has anywhere to hang their hat..........................

Compliance with the rules will be determined the same way for this engine as it has in the past. Part of the problem is that you have absolutely not articulated what you think the problem is. You seem to jump around from saying that Honda has bought off the BOD, to Honda has chosen a curious method to propose a rules change, to accusing me of being on the Honda payroll. Then you say that Honda is going to be free to change parts to whatever they want, which seems to imply that they will dictate the power output of the engine. If you would say what issues you think are going to arise, then it would probably be easier to address them.

in the industry I worked in we were taught to trust our suppliers who were selected very carefully and verify everything. I get you trust them; how will anything be verified if it's not written in black & white AND objectively verifiable?? what's the compliance verification approach.............................? it's NOT a little deal or a simple oversight or a senior moment; it's the potential cornerstone of racing going forward and appears to me to be completely missing.

dealing with missing substance is work; it's not the first or last time the messenger has not been appreciated because of the message...................................

Do you see yourself as some kind of saviour of the class?

You were just linked to the proposal yesterday, which puts some of your previous comments in their proper light of just how informed you were about the proposal.

In the proposal it says how all of this will work. The SCCA will work with Honda and Quicksilver to determine the appropriate size for the restrictor. Honda has not fixed the part numbers because they aren't producing the parts yet. When they start producing the parts, then they will fix the part numbers. Does any of that seem unreasonable to you? SCCA will be issuing the compliance gauges for restrictor and intake ports. Camshafts will be checked the same way they always are. Again, if you would outline exactly what problems you see arising, then people could write the SCCA to do something about it or point out what is going wrong.

Do you honestly think that the SCCA is going to let Honda have free run of the output of their engine?

[Wren]

Once the vote is taken, does anyone know how long it should take for us to hear the results. I seem to remember hearing about the Elan manifold pretty quickly after the meeting, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly.

[Ananth K]

John's helper:

"Once again, the SCCA will control the power output from the engine."

until you or someone else shows me the means of control envisioned AND where it's written in black & white, reciting your chant above only demonstrates your blind trust in the incumbents and your willingness to follow them over the cliff. is someone thinking mobile water brake dyno's that can be hauled to the track?? is someone thinking about impounding the first and second finishing alternate engines and sending them back to the SCCA's R&D facility for inspection?? is someone thinking about being able to claim any alternate engine Sunday afternoon for the price of a new engine from the potential alternate engine supplier? or is the plan the competitors are forced to protest suspect cars?? what is the plan and where is it written?? where is the horsepower and torque curve that will be enforced under what test conditions? if it's not written down no one has anywhere to hang their hat..........................

in the industry I worked in we were taught to trust our suppliers who were selected very carefully and verify everything. I get you trust them; how will anything be verified if it's not written in black & white AND objectively verifiable?? what's the compliance verification approach.............................? it's NOT a little deal or a simple oversight or a senior moment; it's the potential cornerstone of racing going forward and appears to me to be completely missing.

dealing with missing substance is work; it's not the first or last time the messenger has not been appreciated because of the message...................................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

Newbies beware. The cogent reasoning above might convince you that the rest of the world actually gives a shiite about club racing and how the FF engine supply business represents a massive portion of this country's GDP.

[stevestaveley]

Once the vote is taken, does anyone know how long it should take for us to hear the results. I seem to remember hearing about the Elan manifold pretty quickly after the meeting, but I'm not sure I remember that correctly.

Assuming the B of D makes a complete decision and does not seek anymore information (both of which I doubt frankly as this is a very complex issue and the "community" seems evenly divided on the whole) the action take should begin to leak out of the Board as soon as its members get home (Monday / Tues next week). I suspect the Nov. issue of Fast track will carry results. Quick e-mail to your area B of D member might result in the fastest results.

I'll bet you a dime however, that the decision will be delayed and more info gathered.

By the way, its just one dime total, not one dime for all on the forum. I still have to pay for a new motor in the FF.

Steve Staveley RE Cal Club FF 59

[Art Smith]

John-

"I appreciate the concerns, but they go both directions."

progress! I too agree the concern goes BOTH ways. my record on new parts for Kents is consistent with my current position (check): independent objective testing of new parts to confirm no performance advantage prior to approval AND objectively verifiable rules to enable verification of compliance. it wasn't a popular position when the subject was +0.005" forged aluminum pistons either..........................

everyone having a trusting idea of how things will probably be done and nothing written down is a serious problem.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[SOseth]

Assuming the B of D makes a complete decision and does not seek anymore information (both of which I doubt frankly as this is a very complex issue and the "community" seems evenly divided on the whole) the action take should begin to leak out of the Board as soon as its members get home (Monday / Tues next week). I suspect the Nov. issue of Fast track will carry results. Quick e-mail to your area B of D member might result in the fastest results.

I'll bet you a dime however, that the decision will be delayed and more info gathered.

By the way, its just one dime total, not one dime for all on the forum. I still have to pay for a new motor in the FF.

Steve Staveley RE Cal Club FF 59

While the arguments on Apexspeed may seem to be evenly divided, I would not risk losing your dime on the notion that the letters to the club for and against the Honda proposal are similarly divided. I think we are listening here to a vocal minority. The last minute press by some may well put the BOD in quandary...which is exactly what they wanted to do.

SteveO