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  1. #241
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    I contacted Dan and he answered...no Pinto's period. Zetecs fit in the "National" class as I read it (with certain spec'd items). Unless Nicki goes to Zetec power, the fastest FC car and driver combination in the states just ain't invited. Right behind that would be a rather distinctly fast DB6 with a very good young american driver in Cole Morgan. Isn't that where the IRL hung its hat from the get go. Something along the lines of "where are the good american drivers..by gawd we'll give them a chance to step up and run". Tony, Brian, Dan...you guys had my heart pumping there for a while. You broke it. I've never stepped up on a soapbox my entire racing life...but guys, there will still be a giant sucking sound towards tin tops in the States. Bigger purses, less expensive equipment, more shows. My opinion only but I have to classify this one as a great idea with bad execution. I think it will be difficult to flush out the really talented american shoes when the cost of the ticket for a year becomes a spending contest that eliminates prolly 80 % of any good talent out there, it's just not geared to the driver like stick and ball sports are geared to the appropriate athlete. Racing has always been expensive, I was hoping something had finally come along to lessen the blow or lower the hurdle of cash it requires. The road to indy appears to be a very green one indeed...nothing has changed, what a shame.

    All that and I'm still gonna try to find the bucks to make it a go, I just thought I was about halfway there. Bad math, I'm only halfway to halfway there.

    I sincerely wish everyone involved in the US F2000 Series all the best, I just thought it would be more "affordable" to the masses. Enuf, I'll shut up and get to work on my sponsor skills, finish the rebuild on the "old" '99 VD, and run as much SCCA as I can.

    Richard L

  2. #242
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    Based on several of the posts today, it appears there may be some confusion as to what today's announcements mean. The USF2000 National Championship announced it's part in the IRL "Road to Indy" program, which includes USF2000, Star Mazda, and Indy Lights. Our second announcement, and the none which seems to have either been confused or misrepresented, was the announcement of Mazda as a series partner, and the series inclusion in the Mazdaspeed ladder, which includes Skip Barber, USF2000, Star Mazda and Atlantics, with each level's champion earning a scholarship for the next level. There is no better partner for junior formula open wheel racers than Mazda, and we are proud to be a part of their system. As to the cars and engines required in our series, we will have, as previously announced, two classes of competition. The National class is open to any and all racecars that run to SCCA FC rules, except they must utilize a Zetec engine (no Pintos), run the Cooper spec tires, and run the spec fuel. The premiere class is the Championship class, and that class requires a Van Diemen chassis, 2001 and newer (and we will allow 2000 chassis which have been updated to 2001 suspension). No one has to purchase a new car. Is it a one make class? Yes, but it is a make that most competitors alreacdy own.
    As to engines, the Championship class requires either a Zetec or a Mazda MZR 2.0 liter. If you have a Zetec, you are fine. The Mazda will become the required engine in 2011, but is simply an option for 2010. Steve Knapp of Elite Engines will be the sole preparer of the Mazda engines for the series, and they will be prepped and dynoed to match the Zetec, which will run without the restrictor plate and with a map that results in approximately 170 HP (about 15 more than the SCCA FC engines). Steve has already developed a complete conversion kit, which is actually quite simple to use, and he has a car fitted with the engine already in his shop. Championship class cars will also have further restrictions as to the number of gearsets allowable, a limited number of springs they can use, and required usage of stock Van Diemen aero pieces.
    As stated previously, the full regulations will be posted soon. It is, however, our intention to allow cars to race with a mininum amount of required changes, but we also feel strongly that we must prevent well funded teams from having too much room to play in terms of potential options to experiment with. Were we to operate with the wide open rules that exist in SCCA FC, the budgets would skyrocket, and the lesser funded teams would suffer. Restrictions are absolutely necessary in any pro racing series (short of F1)to prevent that from occurring.
    One final note about Mazda. With a champions prize package that toals well over $300,000, they are the best thing that ever happened to career minded racers. Anyone who has ever dealt with the folks at Mazda can verify what a completely class act they are, and how far they go to promote the drivers in their championships. Gradually changing over to Mazda engines, which by the way are excellent, reliable and long-lasting packages, is something we are delighted to do.
    I hope this clears up the apparent confusion.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLav View Post
    They ruined it before even starting. With spec everything, how do they think they are going to develop driver talent? Same old stuff packaged another way.
    Perhaps they will develop driver talent by having everyone in more equal cars and compete on a more even playing field instead of having people chase the flavor of the week.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Learned View Post
    I contacted Dan and he answered...no Pinto's period. Zetecs fit in the "National" class as I read it (with certain spec'd items). Unless Nicki goes to Zetec power, the fastest FC car and driver combination in the states just ain't invited. Right behind that would be a rather distinctly fast DB6 with a very good young american driver in Cole Morgan. Isn't that where the IRL hung its hat from the get go. Something along the lines of "where are the good american drivers..by gawd we'll give them a chance to step up and run". Tony, Brian, Dan...you guys had my heart pumping there for a while. You broke it. I've never stepped up on a soapbox my entire racing life...but guys, there will still be a giant sucking sound towards tin tops in the States. Bigger purses, less expensive equipment, more shows. My opinion only but I have to classify this one as a great idea with bad execution. I think it will be difficult to flush out the really talented american shoes when the cost of the ticket for a year becomes a spending contest that eliminates prolly 80 % of any good talent out there, it's just not geared to the driver like stick and ball sports are geared to the appropriate athlete. Racing has always been expensive, I was hoping something had finally come along to lessen the blow or lower the hurdle of cash it requires. The road to indy appears to be a very green one indeed...nothing has changed, what a shame.

    All that and I'm still gonna try to find the bucks to make it a go, I just thought I was about halfway there. Bad math, I'm only halfway to halfway there.

    I sincerely wish everyone involved in the US F2000 Series all the best, I just thought it would be more "affordable" to the masses. Enuf, I'll shut up and get to work on my sponsor skills, finish the rebuild on the "old" '99 VD, and run as much SCCA as I can.

    Richard L
    Richard,
    I am not sure why you belive that allowing multiple chassis would somehow lessen the costs. I ran the USF2000 series throughout the 1990's as an open chassis formula, and once it gained status as a significant championship to win, the well-funded teams came in and budgets were well into the $300,000 per year range. Fields were already shrinking when I sold it to Jon Baytos in 2001, due in large part to the lesser funded teams departing because they could not afford to expolit the rules package and keep up. A wide-open formula is certainly not a problem if no one pursues all the avenues that can be exploited, but believe me, when it becomes an important series to win, they will ramp up the spending and eventually bring down the series. Of this I am certain, from experience.
    I welcome your call, or anyone elses for that matter, if you wish to learn more about what our series plans are, but be clear about this fact. I am trying very hard to design something that will both work and last. I am specifically NOT asking anyone to change much on their cars, and I am alerting everyone about where we are heading to give them both full disclosure about our intentions, and to allow them to plan the coming season appropriately. I welcome comments and suggestions.
    Dan

  5. #245
    Contributing Member provamo's Avatar
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    Default disappointed but not suprised

    this is intended to be a feeder series for lites and the big cars right?

    since those are spec racers it is understandable that USF2000 would go the same way

    should make it easier for the big players to weed out talent if everyone has to drive the same car
    Last edited by provamo; 12.11.09 at 11:17 AM. Reason: spelin

  6. #246
    Contributing Member greg pizzo's Avatar
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    Default sooo.....

    Dan... so if I understand you correctly .... I can show up with my Pacific ZETEC with 8's an 10's and run the national class ....... or run the championship class with NO restrictor AND a BETTTR map .... 170HP with the AERO like the COOPER series parts with out ANY disadvantage ...

    I can run the FC legal parts with the same pacific F2000 HP and copper tires ... and run the national class till 2011

    THEN I can either run the MAZDA ONLY in the Championship class OR the zetec in the National class...is this correct ... or WILL ALL cars have to have the MAZDA power in 2011 ??? either NO MORE national class or a difference in power plant = national or Championship .. YOU choose A or B ??


    Am I close here .... seems like there are good options that don't preclude anything but OPEN tires and small wheels ..... did I miss anything ... and Oh .... my car is ACTUALLY a RF98 that has been completely updated to the 2005 COOPER car ... so I assume that is legal .... wide track and all .... zetec bodywork etc ...

    will you USE the WIDE gears as well ?? and 13/36 R&P ??? for the champ class ??

    seems like the national class is just what the zetec powered east coast cars are EXCEPT the wide wheels and Cooper tires .... all else stays the same ???

    sure it is a bit different but not that bad ... when will TIRES be available ??? or will they for early national races ??
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  7. #247
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    Dan,
    Thanks for putting a little clarification into the press release. Of course, one look at my last name and you may find a hint as to why I was hoping multiple chassis would be allowed.

    If the rules package isn't set in stone yet, is there any possibility that the model years can be extended to include post '98 Van Diemans if they have been upgraded or is there something within the '98 and '99 models that make it so different from the 2001 widetracks? There prolly aren't that many of us that fall within that area but when you are one of them it becomes, in essence, a much steeper road to climb and '98's and '99's with Pinto power are relatively inexpensive pieces compared to even the 2001 Zetec. They normally take a lot of rebuild money but when it's your own labor the cost in is affordable for even Kansas farm kids like me. Since the engine has to go anyway it seems logical that such a decision for inclusion, with proper upgrades and preparation level, just helps for those of us that are hanging just outside the limits with basically the same piece of equipment. It's a totally selfish request on my part but I'm trying to find the shortest distance between two points and the 2000 on rule stretches that distance so thought I might as well ask.

    Thanks for all your hard work in putting something together that ties a relatively inexpensive effort into an opportunity to see and be seen. I personally don't mind the spec end of it at all, it will seperate the talent from the brazillionares...please just open up those chassis specs two more years. Or...do you think Elan would entertain a cash for clunkers program?

    Richard L

  8. #248
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    Why is the trend by series organizers and promoters to kill of the motorsports market place instead of promoting and building it. Dan, it is easy to see that you are only offering the “National Class” as means of filling out a field and providing a show on the backs of those racers while you grow your “SPEC CAR” field. This is just what Grand-Am did when starting out by dangling the carrot of SR1 and SR2 and sucker teams to invest on equipment and development to put on a show using existing LMP race cars and cars from Pro-Sportscar. They filled out the field and came out of the gates with an interesting level of enthusiasm. This also suckered constructers to develop, tool and start producing new SR1 and SR2 Grand-Am race cars. This, while we watched a few seasons of a new spec class consisting of “TWO” cars that looked more like turtles with birth defects than proper race cars, capturing almost all the commentary time, “two cars racing each other”, and ignoring the exciting SR1 and SR2 cars running up front. Once they had a few key sponsors and a little momentum with the series, they threw the SR1 and SR2 teams out on their ear. These, the teams that the series built its initial momentum with, to make their beloved ugly Daytona Turtle Types the premier showcase class.

    My guess is that Dan is using you national entrants to fill out a field in order to be able to put on a show until such time as he has enough entries to make a viable Spec Car headline class. I will bet that they are going to have you invest your money to build his program by dangling token delusional carrots in your face. Then, you are going to get thrown out on your ear because they only needed you to get them going.

    Driver development in spec cars is a narrow vision of how to build the motorsports market. Creating supplier monopolies and eliminating markets for product manufactures and creative car builders gives you your beloved driver development, but does more to destroy the motorsports industry that it does to grow it. It is disincentive for those that produce motorsport products and are at the core, the “CAR ENTHUSIASTS”. In fact the Driver is only a small part of the whole racing equation and SPEC racing only serves to invalidate the largest part of the equation, “the equipment and the car”. Race fans are up to their asses in reality shows and are tired and burnt out on it. Most of the automotive enthusiasts that I know, watch racing more for the excitement of the cars than the drivers and who Danica batted her eyes at yesterday. From a fans perspective, it is not interesting watching a race that no attention really paid to the equipment because it is all the same. It is about as interesting as watching the old Renault Appliance Cup. Dan, the marketability is for crap, and teams selling potential sponsors on this is going to find it to be a joke.

    Indy car racing was great once. Back when we got to watch fascinating machines from any constructor with the devotion, drive, balls and creativity to construct a qualified car and be fielded by teams that were true racing enthusiasts, instead of teams that merely have the resources to purchase a singularly produced SPEC car. Back when the car mattered and was not just a prop. Back when the innovation was the hallmark of the marketability of the whole package.

    I am sincerely disappointed in direction this has taken and if my gut feeling is right, concerning you just using the “National Class” to help you get started and then wipe them on the bottom of the bar like a piece of used bubble gum, once you have enough of your beloved SPEC cars to make a field, “I hope you fail” for the good of the Performance Racing Industry.

    If a specific car has to be an obligatory purchase in order for it to be competitive, then how good is that car in reality, or do we know? If everyone has to use a Mazda engine, then what does that say to the race fans about the quality of the engine? It says this >> “It must suck if they have to force teams to use it by disallowing others”. That is what it says.

    Why have two classes at all if they are both Formula Continental? The fact is, that if it is one class, then it is more difficult to tell the non Elan, non Mazda to go take a hike later, if and when the series takes off. There are a bunch of small constructors on this very forum that are busting there asses and mortgaging their mother-in-laws and immediate families, working ungodly hours without appreciation, to get a crack at making a going concern of constructing exciting and creative race cars and associated equipment. There is a bunch of talent and enthusiasm here and I would implore you to tap into that and unleash the potential for the good of the industry.

    They don’t have the finances to buy the floor out from under competing brands, but all of them have it in their potential to construct a winning product. These talented and creative people desire to race against each other, but with their innovations in equipment not by mere driving skill. If given the opportunity to compete, many of these small producers can become tomorrow’s champion level constructors and maybe even rise to the challenge of the world stage in Formula Car innovation like F1. But when not even be invited to the party, it is akin to being SH.. on. The opportunities for success with their venture are squashed before ever getting the chance to try.

    Dan, I am disappointed.

    If you really want to grow the Performance Racing Industry, then you need to open the headline class up all those that are actually interested in constructing products in the industry.
    LOL, Maybe consider SPEC Drivers instead of Spec cars? Like only drivers that have red hair, or specific race, gender, or that donate to a specific political party, or maybe a specific size and build or the size of their Johnson? Off the wall? Well so are you and so is Spec Racing.

    C Shaw

  9. #249
    Contributing Member provamo's Avatar
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  10. #250
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    What class is the biggest in club racing? I believe its a spec class. I guess its ruining racing.
    You can't have a legitimate feeder series that is not spec.

  11. #251
    Senior Member HazelNut's Avatar
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    i really don't get why everyone is so hell bent on the theory that spec is cheaper. If teams want to spent, they'll spend.

    some non spec items that cost major dollars:

    ultra whizzy data systems
    ultra whizzy data engineers
    real time on board video
    driver coaches (the better and more notable the higher the price tag)
    combine telemetry, video, & driver coach and damn you got a hell of an advantage (& bill)
    mega transporters & rigs
    dog and pony shows to entertain non existant sponsors (aka rich moms & dads)
    unlimited testing, testing, testing
    3 sets of tires per weekend (if the guy on pole runs 3 sets, you gotta run 3 sets)
    developing the car around the locked in spec parts utilizing rule loopholes
    t-cars, to spec of course
    racing simulators based on in car data, http://www.brdsim.com/team/index.html

    I'm sure there are plenty more ways to spend your way to an advantages (other than just on parts) once you really start thinking about it.

    oh and BTW the kid who drove for BRD Simulator's FBMW race team, was Tom Gladdis, who also happened to have driven for Andersen Racing in 08 as I recall.
    Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

  12. #252
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    Spec is cheaper because teams no longer have to spend money determining what engine combination/brand/builder, chassis brand, wing brand etc is better or better at certain tracks.

  13. #253
    Senior Member HazelNut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mazda17 View Post
    Spec is cheaper because teams no longer have to spend money determining what engine combination/brand/builder, chassis brand, wing brand etc is better or better at certain tracks.
    instead they take the money they were going to spend figuring those things out and use it to figure out what else works better and can give them an advantage.
    Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

  14. #254
    Contributing Member greg pizzo's Avatar
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    Default ?????

    Quote Originally Posted by HazelNut View Post
    instead they take the money they were going to spend figuring those things out and use it to figure out what else works better and can give them an advantage.

    DUDE !!!! that is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN racing !!! it isnt FAIR and level .... not sure I know of ONE sport that IS .....

    I dont see the point ... Dan is making an effort to level it as much as one can .... the Cooper rules although a WEE bit boaring for the engineering type ... were pretty good infact at somewhat containing costs ... besides the TRAVEL it wasn't all that bad ...... once you got the parts together it was just DRIVE IT ... learn how to dial it to YOU and DRIVE ... you had for the most part what the guy on the front row had ..... IMHO ... more seat time WINS !!! ... the thing we can ALL benefit from is MORE LAPS.... some of the "kids" just get A LOT more laps .... and therefore are alot more comfortable with 11/10ths driving .... the latest trick stuff is not what will ultimately make you QUICK ... rather its "DRIVER CONFIDENCE" that comes easiest with MORE LAPS !!! and a PROPER car ... not the trickiest trick of the week .........
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    I ran in Star Mazda recently for 2 years with a team that had the lowest budget of any team that ran all the races, probably half of the top budget teams. We didn't have an engineer just a smart guy who drove the transporter, ran the team, and combined with the lead mechanics and drivers engineered the cars. We were able to be competitive because the cars were spec and set up combinations were limited. If the car had open shocks instead of two way spec shocks or any other major factors were open we would not have been nearly as competitive.
    It is cheaper to be competitive in spec racing.

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    Default forward thinking

    the ONLY detraction to spec-car racing is that in the future at historic events there will not be the variety amoungst machines that made our sport so interesting

  17. #257
    Contributing Member Lee Shumosic's Avatar
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    Default Wow!

    Lot's of angst!
    I hope everyone that submitted a entry fee without understanding the rules will get it returned.
    I'm glad that no club team ever used against me:

    "ultra whizzy data systems
    ultra whizzy data engineers
    real time on board video
    driver coaches (the better and more notable the higher the price tag)
    combine telemetry, video, & driver coach and damn you got a hell of an advantage (& bill)
    mega transporters & rigs
    dog and pony shows to entertain non existant sponsors (aka rich moms & dads)
    unlimited testing, testing, testing
    3 sets of tires per weekend (if the guy on pole runs 3 sets, you gotta run 3 sets)"

    I was just out having fun.

    Maybe I should be in this for money? Na - wouldn't let me bit#$.
    LJS Motorsports

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    Quote Originally Posted by provamo View Post
    the ONLY detraction to spec-car racing is that in the future at historic events there will not be the variety amoungst machines that made our sport so interesting

    is this something that you REALLY are worried about ...... REALLY ???? by the time a 2011 car is a VINTAGE car ... well I dont think I will care ... and cars from THIS level of racing SELDOM are vintage interesting at all EVER ...or maybe its just me ............
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    Contributing Member provamo's Avatar
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    Senior Member HazelNut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greg pizzo View Post
    DUDE !!!! that is and ALWAYS HAS BEEN racing !!! it isnt FAIR and level .... not sure I know of ONE sport that IS .....

    I dont see the point ... Dan is making an effort to level it as much as one can .... the Cooper rules although a WEE bit boaring for the engineering type ... were pretty good infact at somewhat containing costs ... besides the TRAVEL it wasn't all that bad ...... once you got the parts together it was just DRIVE IT ... learn how to dial it to YOU and DRIVE ... you had for the most part what the guy on the front row had ..... IMHO ... more seat time WINS !!! ... the thing we can ALL benefit from is MORE LAPS.... some of the "kids" just get A LOT more laps .... and therefore are alot more comfortable with 11/10ths driving .... the latest trick stuff is not what will ultimately make you QUICK ... rather its "DRIVER CONFIDENCE" that comes easiest with MORE LAPS !!! and a PROPER car ... not the trickiest trick of the week .........
    I think you missed my point entirely. If people want to spend to win they'll spend to win. Speccing certain aspect just changes where they spend it.
    Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

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    Default ...okay yes ....

    yes they will ............. no one can really do much about that ....... in this case you wont be buying parts ... the guy with BIG budgets almost ALWAYS has an advantage ... I DO NOT wont EVER ... Im okay with that .... makes it all the sweeter when on rare ocassion you beat the big budget ....... and if you dont... well .... you can try hard and have fun doing that ...

    At the end of the day.... if I did the BEST I could do and I dont win ..... so be it ... some times I will ........ I just KILLS me though when I dont get 110% out of my self and walk away thinking ... could have ..... alittle more ... Ive ALWAYS done better when competing with BETTER competition and learned alot in the process!

    In a series like the USf2000 there WILL be Guys that come way better prepared than others ..... and will be at the front .. maybe TALENT too ... or maybe buget and preparation .... or all three .... IMHO this is ALL OKAY .... it IS racing .... after all ....

    but in the end IF we all get ANOTHER choice of where we can run the SAME cars we have now ... GREAT .. big shows COOL ...and if we need to UPGRADE now and then ... FINE we DO ANYWAY !! ....the effort it took for me to convert to ZETEC power was the best thing I ever did ... alot more time RACING alot less fussing around ...

    that being SAID ... DAN ..... is there a way to allow the ZETEC a LONGER life than 1 year in the USF2000 if the power plants are on a par ..???

    BUT if not ... then a move to Mazda if it is rather painless ... maybe worth it AGAIN as MAZDA DOES support RACING !! unlike FORD !!! ....if it is too much ...then the zetec in CLUB racing isnt all that bad of a plan B....
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    Default There is a down side to spec formulas

    I want to commend Dan and the people helping him organize a new spec series that will be a worthy replacement for the BMW series and put a spec series a littler closer to affordable.

    One of the stated purposes is to prepare young drivers for Indy. My observation is based on my experience and are my opinions only. There is a down side to spec formulas.

    I don’t think another spec series is going to improve the path to Indy for the kids who go that route. I would argue that the lack of competitive American drivers in the top open wheel series is due to the spec series that have been training the drivers. These series have replaced the open, club based formulas such as FV, FF and FC as the training ground for American drivers.

    Look at the top Indy car drivers, the ones who are consistently at the top. They have all spent time in open formulas; be it Formula Ford, the “unspec.” versions of F2000, F3 or what ever. These drivers have learned to how to setup a car and keep it at the peak of performance. They know when more is available form the setup and when the setup has to be down graded or changed to respond to changing conditions. They have experience in sorting the conflict between grip and controllability. They have a feel for the difference between aero problems and mechanical grip problems. The can feel subtle changes in shock settings, ride height adjustments. In short they make their engineers look good because they can evaluate the setup changes that work and don’t.

    The compromises involved in arriving at a spec car require designs and setups that are suitable for all conditions in which the cars will compete. Above all, the spec cars have to be safe and relative easy to drive. In short the cars are going to be safe in the rain and will most likely push in all normal circumstances. A spec series will show the best driver at extracting the most form this package of compromises. But can he help sort and drive a car at the absolute limit of the formula? Not likely. For sure you can’t teach shock tuning in a car doing 190 mph.

    In terms of pure driving ability, Marco is the best I have ever worked around. But he is a product of spec cars. Dixon on the other hand is from the old school of New Zeeland FF. Who is the more consistent performer? Where are the American trained Dixon type drivers?

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    Default marketing the lowest rung of the ladder

    spec cars and spec clothing...its an IZOD world...ZOOM,ZOOM,ZOOM

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    Default Reasonable Marketing, or, "How I learned to love the lottery and pro racing".

    Mr. Anderson has a product he needs to sell. Its a modern racing series designed to be a perfect fit stepping stone that comes in-between Karts and Atlantic. FC fits that bill rather well in my opinion. Now, add some bigger rubber a little more power,( really now, how long have we all secretly wanted that in an FC!), at least draw a line in the sand on rubber cost and presto! Modern and Mo' Money! Isn't America great!
    The last thing you would want of course in a Modern racing series is a...lets just say antiquated.. engine design and god forbid a 10 plus year old chassis. The next thing you know some ya-who would show up in a pick-up truck and an open trailer and end up chasing down the series corprate sponsors golden boy, ( surely you've noticed that all series corporate sponsors have at least one horse of their own in the race, and why not, its their series), and you can't have that in a modern racing series. The fans might like it but lets face it, if you call the the number of people hanging around a pro FC race a crowd, maybe you been hanging around SCCA races to long. Even if it looks like one it ain't enough to feed the bulldog. Corporate sponors know how to get the biggest bang for their buck and do so quite well. They don't count on the size of the gate, should one show up, so much the better, it adds to the ambiance.
    So heres to Dan for bringing another nice stepping stone, to most American childhood racers dreams, Indy.( although I am puzzled about the lack of actual IRL weekends, maybe 2011).
    And, heres to the next wining lottery numbers. May they fall my way.. ( its going to happen this time, I can feel it). Just so I can show up in a brand new,( to me), spec chassis with spec tires and spec engine sitting on my 20 year old open trailer and 22 year old pick-up truck, go out and play in a real pro series and suck the doors off some corporate, mediocure driv'in moving chicane.
    Isn't America great !

    GK

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSHAW View Post
    Why is the trend by series organizers and promoters to kill of the motorsports market place instead of promoting and building it. Dan, it is easy to see that you are only offering the “National Class” as means of filling out a field and providing a show on the backs of those racers while you grow your “SPEC CAR” field. This is just what Grand-Am did when starting out by dangling the carrot of SR1 and SR2 and sucker teams to invest on equipment and development to put on a show using existing LMP race cars and cars from Pro-Sportscar. They filled out the field and came out of the gates with an interesting level of enthusiasm. This also suckered constructers to develop, tool and start producing new SR1 and SR2 Grand-Am race cars. This, while we watched a few seasons of a new spec class consisting of “TWO” cars that looked more like turtles with birth defects than proper race cars, capturing almost all the commentary time, “two cars racing each other”, and ignoring the exciting SR1 and SR2 cars running up front. Once they had a few key sponsors and a little momentum with the series, they threw the SR1 and SR2 teams out on their ear. These, the teams that the series built its initial momentum with, to make their beloved ugly Daytona Turtle Types the premier showcase class.

    My guess is that Dan is using you national entrants to fill out a field in order to be able to put on a show until such time as he has enough entries to make a viable Spec Car headline class. I will bet that they are going to have you invest your money to build his program by dangling token delusional carrots in your face. Then, you are going to get thrown out on your ear because they only needed you to get them going.

    Driver development in spec cars is a narrow vision of how to build the motorsports market. Creating supplier monopolies and eliminating markets for product manufactures and creative car builders gives you your beloved driver development, but does more to destroy the motorsports industry that it does to grow it. It is disincentive for those that produce motorsport products and are at the core, the “CAR ENTHUSIASTS”. In fact the Driver is only a small part of the whole racing equation and SPEC racing only serves to invalidate the largest part of the equation, “the equipment and the car”. Race fans are up to their asses in reality shows and are tired and burnt out on it. Most of the automotive enthusiasts that I know, watch racing more for the excitement of the cars than the drivers and who Danica batted her eyes at yesterday. From a fans perspective, it is not interesting watching a race that no attention really paid to the equipment because it is all the same. It is about as interesting as watching the old Renault Appliance Cup. Dan, the marketability is for crap, and teams selling potential sponsors on this is going to find it to be a joke.

    Indy car racing was great once. Back when we got to watch fascinating machines from any constructor with the devotion, drive, balls and creativity to construct a qualified car and be fielded by teams that were true racing enthusiasts, instead of teams that merely have the resources to purchase a singularly produced SPEC car. Back when the car mattered and was not just a prop. Back when the innovation was the hallmark of the marketability of the whole package.

    I am sincerely disappointed in direction this has taken and if my gut feeling is right, concerning you just using the “National Class” to help you get started and then wipe them on the bottom of the bar like a piece of used bubble gum, once you have enough of your beloved SPEC cars to make a field, “I hope you fail” for the good of the Performance Racing Industry.

    If a specific car has to be an obligatory purchase in order for it to be competitive, then how good is that car in reality, or do we know? If everyone has to use a Mazda engine, then what does that say to the race fans about the quality of the engine? It says this >> “It must suck if they have to force teams to use it by disallowing others”. That is what it says.

    Why have two classes at all if they are both Formula Continental? The fact is, that if it is one class, then it is more difficult to tell the non Elan, non Mazda to go take a hike later, if and when the series takes off. There are a bunch of small constructors on this very forum that are busting there asses and mortgaging their mother-in-laws and immediate families, working ungodly hours without appreciation, to get a crack at making a going concern of constructing exciting and creative race cars and associated equipment. There is a bunch of talent and enthusiasm here and I would implore you to tap into that and unleash the potential for the good of the industry.

    They don’t have the finances to buy the floor out from under competing brands, but all of them have it in their potential to construct a winning product. These talented and creative people desire to race against each other, but with their innovations in equipment not by mere driving skill. If given the opportunity to compete, many of these small producers can become tomorrow’s champion level constructors and maybe even rise to the challenge of the world stage in Formula Car innovation like F1. But when not even be invited to the party, it is akin to being SH.. on. The opportunities for success with their venture are squashed before ever getting the chance to try.

    Dan, I am disappointed.

    If you really want to grow the Performance Racing Industry, then you need to open the headline class up all those that are actually interested in constructing products in the industry.
    LOL, Maybe consider SPEC Drivers instead of Spec cars? Like only drivers that have red hair, or specific race, gender, or that donate to a specific political party, or maybe a specific size and build or the size of their Johnson? Off the wall? Well so are you and so is Spec Racing.

    C Shaw
    Why is it a "series" job to "grow the industry"?

    From what I see - and based on experience with what you seem to see as the 'good old days' version of the series - to me it seems Dan is taking a strong calculated approach to building something with a lot of opportunity for racers of all levels of budget and one with strong business relationships and rules that help insure the series lasts

    I know how much money and effort a few top teams spent to be fast - and how far they were able to push the envelope as a result. It was very good for those few big and well funded teams, and not very good for the rest.

    The association with Mazda is big, as noted they are great supporters of motor sports - especially lower tiers - and that relationship, along with what appears a real commitment from the IndyCar Series, build a strong foundation for the reborn series.

    Add Elan/Van Dieman to the mix - and provide them the ability to make a profit - makes the series far stronger IMO than a bunch of chassis's and none of them making anything as we saw in the past.

    Last - I have to commend Dan and the series on choosing Steve Knapp. There are plenty of other great folks as well - but Steve's experience, knowledge and commitment to the sport, and to the ladder formula's - is a real asset to the series. When you have "one of your own" - especially someone with experience in literally every aspect of the sport - championship winning driver, team owner, supplier (both engines and chassis parts), chassis/engineering whiz etc - you a great asset.

    Dan as well has been on both sides - a series owner and a team owner - seeing from both perspectives. Seems he would be well positioned to make smart balanced choices.

    I don't know if it will eventually work, or if every decision is absolutely the right one, but there are really smart folks, with extensive experience, making what seem to be smart decisions.

    These are difficult economic times, but we've started a recovery, and as that continues it seems this new series is well positioned to take advantage of both the economic recovery and potentially the IndyCar Series recovery as well

    YMMV ...

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    Steve - excellent point ... there is "spec" and then there is "spec" ...

    One could make the case that orig USFF2000 series was essentially a spec series - pretty much all used VD chassis. And many great drivers came thru those ranks.

    I agree that there is a real problem if a spec becomes so restrictive that there is little ability to engineer or change the cars. Where to draw the line is the big question. How to balance cost with openness of spec.

    The most important gains to me always seemed to come from the mechanical grip/driveability side of the equation. Shocks, springs, bars, tires and to a lesser extent gearing. Chassis setup - learning vehicle dynamics - and both an understanding of how it works, what makes it work and doesn't - and why something works, are what is important to learn.

    Marco ANdretti a perfect example as you note. Along with any number of other current similar drivers. Great innate talent but they didn't it seems learn the basics of vehicle dynamics - they go great in a good car but are lost and scared in a bad one.

    So what is the balance between costs and openness - that allows enough ability to change while limiting how far a team can go.

    Make the aero spec - and relegate it to role as trim to setup.

    But on the setup/mechanic grip side I think err on side of open rather than spec. Make sure drivers and teams have a big enough window to experiment a bit - and learn how changes react - but not big enough that a team can spend a large amount going outside some limits and finding advantages.

    To me perhaps one of the most important areas is shocks - the more and quicker a driver and team can learn about damping the better they will be - then and in future. Too many ladder sries it seems overly restrict shocks - to the point where drivers and team don't get the necessary experience. And that hampers them forever more.

    A few drivers that came thru the original USFF2000 series could provide a narrative on exactly what each corner of the car was doing under load - some while driving <grin>. They learned what affected and what they could do to affect - specific issues. Today too often it seems drivers rely entirely on engineers and data, and too little on their own understanding and "feel".

    The right balance insures as Steve notes that they learn the basics if they are to move forward and/or up in the racing ranks.

    Again JMO ... YMMV


    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    I want to commend Dan and the people helping him organize a new spec series that will be a worthy replacement for the BMW series and put a spec series a littler closer to affordable.

    One of the stated purposes is to prepare young drivers for Indy. My observation is based on my experience and are my opinions only. There is a down side to spec formulas.

    I don’t think another spec series is going to improve the path to Indy for the kids who go that route. I would argue that the lack of competitive American drivers in the top open wheel series is due to the spec series that have been training the drivers. These series have replaced the open, club based formulas such as FV, FF and FC as the training ground for American drivers.

    Look at the top Indy car drivers, the ones who are consistently at the top. They have all spent time in open formulas; be it Formula Ford, the “unspec.” versions of F2000, F3 or what ever. These drivers have learned to how to setup a car and keep it at the peak of performance. They know when more is available form the setup and when the setup has to be down graded or changed to respond to changing conditions. They have experience in sorting the conflict between grip and controllability. They have a feel for the difference between aero problems and mechanical grip problems. The can feel subtle changes in shock settings, ride height adjustments. In short they make their engineers look good because they can evaluate the setup changes that work and don’t.

    The compromises involved in arriving at a spec car require designs and setups that are suitable for all conditions in which the cars will compete. Above all, the spec cars have to be safe and relative easy to drive. In short the cars are going to be safe in the rain and will most likely push in all normal circumstances. A spec series will show the best driver at extracting the most form this package of compromises. But can he help sort and drive a car at the absolute limit of the formula? Not likely. For sure you can’t teach shock tuning in a car doing 190 mph.

    In terms of pure driving ability, Marco is the best I have ever worked around. But he is a product of spec cars. Dixon on the other hand is from the old school of New Zeeland FF. Who is the more consistent performer? Where are the American trained Dixon type drivers?

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    Dan Anderson,
    I am sorry if my comments where abrasive, I just find myself frustrated over your election to make your new headline venture just another spec car series. I apologize for the harsh criticism and actually wish you success in the venture. These are trying times and all of us in the motorsports industry are scrambling to find a place for the products of our craft and when doors seem to be opening up and then gets slammed in the face, it is frustrating.

    I do hope that you will clearly state what your five year plan is for the “National Class” you are planning which, if I understand correctly is not a spec car class. I hope that you are not just using it to aid in the launch of the series only to be abandoned after you have a field of spec cars. If you do, in fact have a substantive long term plan for the “National Class”, I would implore you to ramp up the disclosure of the plans so that those here that are not interested in spec car racing can maybe embrace your national class venue and get involved.

    Once again, please accept my apology for derogatory comments that where made out of frustration and disappointment.

    Thanks
    C Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by CSHAW View Post
    Dan Anderson,
    I am sorry if my comments where abrasive, I just find myself frustrated over your election to make your new headline venture just another spec car series. I apologize for the harsh criticism and actually wish you success in the venture. These are trying times and all of us in the motorsports industry are scrambling to find a place for the products of our craft and when doors seem to be opening up and then gets slammed in the face, it is frustrating.

    I do hope that you will clearly state what your five year plan is for the “National Class” you are planning which, if I understand correctly is not a spec car class. I hope that you are not just using it to aid in the launch of the series only to be abandoned after you have a field of spec cars. If you do, in fact have a substantive long term plan for the “National Class”, I would implore you to ramp up the disclosure of the plans so that those here that are not interested in spec car racing can maybe embrace your national class venue and get involved.

    Once again, please accept my apology for derogatory comments that where made out of frustration and disappointment.

    Thanks
    C Shaw

    Corey,
    Thanks, though an apology wasn't really necesaary. I understand and accept that I will be criticized for some decisions I make, and while no one likes to be slammed, it kind of goes with the territory, and my skin has gotten pretty thick from reading posts from some of my friends here on Apexspeed.
    As to the National class, as long as it is supported by competitors, we will continue it. If it drops down to only a very few drivers, we would have to revisit that of course. I am hopeful that our National class will afford the kind of crossover from club racing that we enjoyed in the 90's, and allow drivers to sample our series and decide if it is where they want to commit for the following year.
    With regard to our decision to require Van Diemen chassis, please understand that, as I have mentioned before, an open formula would be exploited by Championship class teams with the result being large budgets for drivers. Also, teams would have to gamble when choosing a chassis, and if they chose wrong, and a different chassis proved to be the hot ticket for that year, they would need to dump theirs and buy new, though still unsure if the new one would hold up as being fast the next year. At this level, it may seem like a great idea, but the reality would be that many teams would be hurt financially, and therefore drivers would see increased budgets as the years rolled on. We chose to form an alliance with Van Diemen because most current cars in this marketplace are already Van Diemens, which means most people would not have to buy new cars. Were I in this for the money, I would spec something that everyone would have to buy to race. With Carl Haas's involvement, there will be spares on the shelf when needed, and their service, both from Chicago and trackside, is second to none.
    Look on our website in the coming days for the minutes of the recent winter meeting at PRI, as many questions were answered there, and much informatrion will be released in the weeks leading up to Christmas.
    Again, thanks for the note, and feel free to ask if there are any further questiosn.
    Dan Andersen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Andersen View Post
    my skin has gotten pretty thick from reading posts from some of my friends here on Apexspeed.
    http://www.ehow.com/how_2729_exfoliate-body.html

    +




    Awww, come on guys, it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

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    Default Van Diemen

    Dan, do you know if Van Diemen/Elan are planning on a new chassis to replace the current Van Diemen?

    Thanks ... Jay Novak
    Thanks ... Jay Novak
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    with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)

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    Default Mazda in SCCA

    It seems that a large amount of cars that came into FC in the 90's came from the pro series. I imagine that the same thing would happen now, the cars have to go somewhere after a couple years of running pro.

    If the engines are setup the same as the zetec, I wonder how long it will take for the mazda to be allowed in FC at the SCCA level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtovo View Post
    It seems that a large amount of cars that came into FC in the 90's came from the pro series. I imagine that the same thing would happen now, the cars have to go somewhere after a couple years of running pro.

    If the engines are setup the same as the zetec, I wonder how long it will take for the mazda to be allowed in FC at the SCCA level.
    I wouldn't hold my breath. From what I heard at the meeting at PRI, Dan has no interest in proposing the engine for SCCA racing. Just not a priority for him (which I understand).

    The Mazda engine will be unrestricted and mapped to make 170 hp, with Zetecs boosted to match. That means a new restrictor and map would have to be developed to make the Mazda equivalent to the Zetec and Pinto in SCCA Club Racing. Not a huge effort, but it would require someone to push it.

    The Mazda engine is 30 lbs lighter than the Zetec. How do you deal with the lower weight and the potential difference in CG height?

    The fact that the Elan Mazda cars in Dan's series are not FC legal means teams are taking a much bigger risk by buying a car that has no resale value. But the same is true in Star Mazda and was true in Formula BMW, which is where I imagine they will draw the majority of their teams. $120k to buy a car (with engine, dampers, data, spares) is probably not that big an obstacle to many of them.

    Nathan

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    Default "Dans car"

    I have to admit that I dont have enough time to keep up with this post as it has gotten pretty active. But the car should be pretty easy to get into FC if you just stick a ZETEC in it. Steve adapted the mazda to this car, it is not purpose built. So, these cars can easiy show up in club racing as "rollers" and accept a pinto or zetec.

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    Yep, for the most part, you are correct. You can stick a Zetec in it and go SCCA racing, provided that you also (at least right now) change the brake calipers back to some iron ones. Hopefully, by the time that these cars show up on the used market, the calipers will be free, and that won't be an issue.

    You can compare the expense of converting a Mazda to a Zetec to converting a Pinto to a Zetec - so probably around $18-20K in addition to the roller. If I'm not mistaken, Dan's limiting his gear selection to the wide stacks that were used in the Cooper days, so you probably won't get too many gearsets with your roller.

    It would be my guess that those stock V-D aero bits won't be too competitive in SCCA racing, either, where a lot of people have come a long way from that, but I do agree that you could turn one of those cars into a legal SCCA FC car.

    Cheers,

    Chris C.

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    I supposed I can wait until the rules are published, but will this series like the Cooper series (and hence the Pacific series) also limit other bits as well? Previously I thought the wheels had to be ally versus mag and the diff carrier had to be ferrous. That may limit the resale value of a pro hand me down as well since the club rules are so wide open you'll have some 'capital investments' to make to get it up to club par.

    Did the cooper series really die because of the restrictions to keep the costs down or because of the flop of the Dallara tub car that was proposed? From a pro racing perspective the Cooper series made a lot of sense back then as there were enough parameters to adjust to optimize the package but not wide open like club racing where the number of permutations is virtually limitless. I'm not a proponent of spec car racing, but the hey day in CART was likely not good for the long term health of motor racing either...the budgets couldn't be sustained yet alone sustain their growth rate.
    ------------------
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    Has any drivers committed to the series yet?

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