New brake calipers for FC

[Todd TCE]

I'm holding middle ground on all of this.

I see what Phil is pointing out and have much the same thoughts. I understand that by nature a racer will always look for improvements to the car whether they be there truly or not. That being said any change to an alum caliper could be considered an improvement etc. etc.

On the other hand I'm offering up some options that might be worth considering if you ultimately decide to go this way. Nothing that isn't being shared by another manufactures who appear to have a fine products.

I won't say for certain that the GP320 is an exact fit replacement for the LDs until I was to review the mount radius of each upright it would be fit to as it might also require a change in rotor OD by a small amount to fit...in which case as a buyer I'd balk too!

As for Derricks comments, I'll take them with a grain of salt. As a competitor in OW cars and crewing them for years I've become accustom to flipping pads to counter taper wear....certainly less costly than dedicated body halves. Stainless or steel pistons in alum calipers have been around for years and proven their worth. Deflection? Yeah, they all have that too. Granted some more than others, but last time I checked line pressure on an OW car was somewhere around 600psi tops?? I'm not feelin' the resultant design is going to be of much concern. The ICP stuff seems to do well and it's not a monster part either. The pad plates are certainly a good idea and I'll pass along the suggestion- they are found on most other models already.

In the end of all this I hope everyone finds some common ground and a solution they are happy with regardless of brand name. If anyone wants to speak with me, find me through the shop page or email. Until then I'm out. Best wishes to all.


Most if not all GP320 calipers are shipping today with ss bridge plates install. No confirmation of mount radius comparing this and LD on the same rotor OD however.

[Bumpdraft]

The LD20 has not functioned as well as it should for us. If someone has a solution to things like tapered pad wear and we want to take advantage of that solution, I don't care if it's ferris or non-ferris. If someone's design gives the driver better feel, then I don't care if it's ferris or non-ferris. Having been a machine tool designer, I know that aluminum is easier and cheaper to machine. With proper design and manufacturing, I can't see why the aluminum can't be made cheaper than iron. So in the interest of moving technology forward and doing it cheaper than the old technology, bring it on. We're looking at another winter overhaul of our braking system and we believe that the aluminum calipers demand serious consideration. Thanks for giving us that option Bob.

Bumpdraft

[Rick Iverson]

So as customers, what are the club racers primarily looking for? Lighter weight? Better availability? Modularity (i.e. one caliper works on all four corners)? Cheaper pricing? Easier servicing? Increase in stiffness? Less brake drag? Less pad taper?

YES

I second that.

The discretionary income spent on this addiction is shrinking with every passing day. Unlike the early 70s when towing costs were fractionally reimbursed by the club, and there was more track time than one could possibly want, it is increasing difficult to justify staying aboard. Eight hours tow and $400 entry fee for 100 minutes total track time? Geez, enough!

From my chair here, if it reduces the cost and provided ANY added value, then let's get on with it. Chripes sakes, were not talking long division here.

Iverson

[Brakeguy1]

1. Yes, the LD20 calipers have been the workhorse for a number years in F2000. They will still be cherished by many regardless of the rules changes. The problem has been and will always be is service parts and "readily" available replacements. The intent of the rule was not performance based but improve accessibility to something modern.
2. Yes, the 7720 pad shape came from the Morris Mini in 1972 so that makes that pad shape 47 years old.
3. Yes, Phil Creighton will argue, "why then mess with a proven part?" But then Phil and I have had those kinds of debate for years.
4. Yes, it will be difficult to have an Aluminum caliper that uses that same pad shape or something similar that offers "substantial" improvements for the same stiffness vs. mass vs. responsiveness.
5. Yes, stainless pistons in Aluminum calipers have been around for years but if you are looking for improvements to the LD20 calipers, 2 dissimilar materials is the makings of a battery, not a race caliper. Its physics not an opinion.
6. Yes, stainless would have better properties for heat resistance so it should be considered for a piston cap and abutments but the piston material should share the same expansion at elevated temperatures as the parent material that the bores are made from.
7. Flipping pads to counter pad taper is evidence there's something fundamentally wrong with design. Consider what the caliper or piston must do to twist itself around to get the flipped pad's friction flat to the disc and what happens to the disc or the piston bores or the seals at that point? The discs eventually fatigues, cracks and......bores egg hole, pistons are scored and the seals.........
8. 600psi of pressure with 2.4in^2 you'd have 1440 lbs of force at the pads. if just had just .020" of caliper defection per caliper halves at elevated temperatures (.040-.050 is more on par @300F with cheap designs) with a 3.0:1 pedal ratio on say a .625" bore master cylinder, how much travel will be used in just caliper deflection? Answer, just under 1/2" to make up for caliper flex. It doesn't take a genus to see why this influences pad taper and brake drag and spongy, long pedals and most importantly, lost driver's confidence. Couple that with flipped pads,,,,,Some might consider that OK but I'm of the opinion its not.
9. Yes, if a new pad shape was introduced, you could improve bite, torque, release, control, and lower drag for the same compound but...
10. That new pad shape would then need to be married with a properly designed caliper and from a cost and tooling standpoint, Aluminum is the logical choice. In our opinion, that could be done by using a monobloc design without any tension bolts for cost savings but at this writing, that isn't allowed yet.
11. Yes, you could achieve desired results in a 2-piece design but you do add complexity with tolerance stack of multiple components.
12. No, I don't agree that improved brakes on F2000 car isn't much of an advantage. If its only improvement is driver's confidence than what's that worth? Remember, when Alex Zanardi drove F1, he would qualify on iron brakes. Confidence is worth lap time.

Just buyer beware, choose your brake supplier wisely. Whoever it is, be sure that company understands your venue completely. Don't be afraid to qualify the supplier with thought provoking questions.

So far the discussion has enlightened many and that was my purpose. Many good, bad and very funny as well as entertaining thoughts have transpired here. All good stuff.

Stay tuned,
Darrick

[kea]

Pad taper, interesting.
I asked some of my brake pad customers that have the LD-20 caliper, about pad taper, and they didn't feel they had a problem with it. Maybe some brake pad materials are at issue?

[R. Pare]

All pads will taper to a certain point in a 2 piston caliper (and with a 4 equal size piston caliper), with some being much worse than others. The really soft, fast wearing pads like the Hawke Black seem to be the worst from what I've seen so far.

[Brakeguy1]

There are many factors that influence pad taper;

1. Uneven force distribution applied to the pads
2. Uneven force distribution from the pistons is influenced by the lack of caliper bore uniformity, either dynamically or piston position relative to the biting portion of the pads.
3. It is not true that either 2 piston or a 4 piston has more or less pad taper. It does matter in a opposed type caliper that piston placement is omnipotent to minimize tap taper.
4. For the pad requirements for F2000 type car, it is very difficult to place 4 pistons of equal sizes strategically to reduce pad taper without affecting bore integrity as the offset placement of the pistons make the wall between the piston bores at the seal grove very thin. Iron would have stiffer properties than most commercial Aluminum alloys. Certainly there are alloys out there to address stiffness to mass but will be more expensive.
5. This means a proper Aluminum caliper should have offset pistons to counter pad taper regardless if 2-pot or 4-pot of equal piston sizes. Differential bore calipers is the easiest and cheapest solution but for some reason, the logic and physics of the braking event hasn't entered into the rules makers criteria. As a manufacture, I'm not sure how much influence we would have with the comp. board but considering the quality of questions, opinions and postings on this site, a cliff note version could be forwarded by the readership and have clout for the rules makers to review. After all; the rules makers are working for the good of the racers or least that's my understanding of their roles.
6. This offset or differential bore strategies then makes the caliper orientation, handed. I.E. left front trailing or a right rear leading type calipers as an example.
7. There are pad materials out there, particularity the cheaper brands who use a higher percentage of powered metals will have "material migration" regardless of good force distribution. Many of the cold formed sintered pads out in the market are notorious for this trait.
8. Other contributing factors to pad taper is non uniform temperature rejection in combination of thickness variation of the discs. This is no easy fix either as its in the iron's material matrix and it's geometry. But that's another story.
9. Remember, pad taper can not only go from fore and aft but also up and down across the pad friction face. This is one of the reasons you see chamfers on the biting and trailing edges or a rounded profile on lower corners instead of square corners.

Darrick

[glenn cooper]

I'm trying to follow this and it seems as though my wanting to upgrade my F1000 car from FC spec two piston iron calipers to 4 piston aluminum calipers will result in no appreciable change in braking performance?

GC

[Brakeguy1]

Glen

There are many advantages to a modern, advance designed brake system. Note I didn't refer to any one component. It's always has been and will always be a series of brake components that will either enhance or take away from the braking event.

Note on this forum, all the different brake parts used on the hot end that are being used just in F2000-F1000 cars. Maybe 4 different caliper brands, 4 or 5 disc manufactures, and close to 11 brake pad companies,,,,,,,,,,It's enough to confuse anybody.

The reason for the all the choices is to find that 1 advantage and open competition, isn't it? But because of rules or something worst, tribal knowledge over 3 decades, we were stuck in the same sandbox limited by the architecture of the LD20 type calipers.

When I came to work at PFC, there where some really badly designed discs used in F2000. All that changed when we produced a disc of superior materials and geometries and for the most part has now become the fabric of what is used by the majority of VD racers in North America. We built a better part, people recognized it and made their buying choice easy after 14 years of producing the 255.01.0041.01/02 slotted discs.

Choices with pads, PFC loves having 11 different pad companies competing for the wins. Competition has always keeps PFC sharp and its far more gratifying to win now than ever before. BRING IT ON!!

So now after years of complaining about antique iron calipers who's time has come and gone, we have rules makers who have allowed a caliper replacement made from a commonly available alloys. Granted, I wish there was a little more forward thinking about the configuration BUT, its a new game now. Its an exciting game now because there will lively competition as to who will put it ALL the systems together as to a robust, kick ass brake SYSTEM for the hot end of the brakes.

So Glen, if you're looking for improvements over your LD20 brakes, YES there will be some exciting new approaches to your brake package. Competition and forums like ApexSpeed will weed through the good stuff vs. the not so good and your buying decision will be far easier and fun as you investigate the path to better brakes.

So if you're not sure, stay with what is known. But stay tuned as the best will be coming soon.

Darrick

[glenn cooper]

Thank you Darrick, I guess I could have made my previous post more precise, but there's no emoticon for "Total Bewilderment".
I like your reference to a brake system. Good one(!)
Yes, there are brake system upgrades in my immediate future...
GC

[R. Pare]

Glenn:

If your method or desire for "upgrading" is to purchase a caliper that will bolt into place with minimal hassle (the only method available up to this point, outside of rotor materials, floating or solid, vented or solid, and pad compound choices), there isn't much in the way of choices, even with this new allowance for the pro series, and especially at a price that won't break the bank.

If, however, you have the budget, a "system" upgrade, where the limitations of the old LD20 setup are addressed with the latest thinking, can and will offer a lot of braking "feel" benefits, and therefore actual on-track braking performance, even with the ultimate braking limitation still being the tire grip. To perform such an upgrade may take some machining and/or fabrication to get the new calipers mounted, all new rotors and hats, new master cylinders, and so on.

Once this door is opened to the Club racers, expect to see a massive increase in brake system costs over time as the well-heeled keep upping the ante to whatever the manufacturers are willing to produce for them.

The current F3 systems, which are really not all that much different than what FC and F1000 can use effectively, now run in the neighborhood of $10000. Current LD20 based ferrous systems - calipers, rotors, hats, MCs - run in the neighborhood of $2200 - $2500, depending on whos stuff you buy. Those of us that have been supplying components to Club racers have all consiously kept away from escallating the price point by avoiding designing the much better moustraps that we know we can. However, if that's what you want, we'll be happy to oblige.

Your choice as to where you want to Club to go!

[VehDyn]

What are the FA guys using? Are they paying 10k a setup like the F3 guys? What does a RT41, 014, and ProMazda use? How many piston? Differential psiton sizes? How much?

Thanks.

Ken

[nulrich]

I'm trying to follow this and it seems as though my wanting to upgrade my F1000 car from FC spec two piston iron calipers to 4 piston aluminum calipers will result in no appreciable change in braking performance?

An upgrade won't make significant changes in your lap time.

If you'd like to reduce unsprung weight, improve caliper "feel," minimize maintenance and reduce pad wear, then it makes sense to upgrade to a proper racing caliper. For $1200 you can replace your calipers with Radon aluminum calipers and keep your excellent PFC disks and pads. You can make the change in about 20 minutes. These calipers are stiffer than any other available FC/F1000 caliper, in some cases by a factor of five (!), and require no changes to the upright or other parts of your braking system.

Our FC calipers are designed with different piston sizes to eliminate taper wear, but we've had enough interest from F1000 competitors we will produce a version with equal piston sizes. (Strange rule, though...one that actually increases the costs for competitors.)

If you have money to burn and want to LOOK cool, then by all means wait until someone produces a package of new uprights, vented disks, and big F3 calipers and pads. You'll spend $10k+ to INCREASE your unsprung weight and rotational inertia, but it might make you feel faster.

There are also issues with many FC/F1000 pedal boxes and master cylinders, mostly caused by poor design in the brake balance adjusting system, but they can be mitigated by a little work on the existing parts. Our new car has a completely different design that eliminates hysteresis in the brake balance, but it would require major work (cutting and welding the front bulkhead at the least) to upgrade existing cars.

By far the biggest opportunity for lap time reduction on these cars is in aerodynamics, where seconds per lap are available with simple upgrades. That's where I'd spend my money.

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[Brakeguy1]

Not sure where this $10,000.00 brake system that has been posted comes from but the PFC F3 and Atlantic brakes are no where near that and the new PFC F1000-F2000 brake system will be priced competitively. By the way, the PFC Atlantic brake system on the Swifts .008-.014A are designed for 15.0" or larger wheels while the PFC F3 package is better suited for 13.0" wheels.

I think what most racers don't consider is when they buy a new racecar from a small formula car constructor, the car constructor now a days has to build the cars around a certain price point in effort to be competitive in the market. Seldom is the ALL the components of the latest spec as that may deter the customer who is price shopping. Many times it's what's cheapest that gets on the initial build as opposed as what's "Going to make the car brand the car to beat on the race track."

Also, seldom is there an extensive "options" list for the car constructors so it's natural market pressures to upgrade to stay in the game.

This isn't always true, but we've been in many negotiations with car builders and I can say its bloodsport to get on the initial car builds.

Darrick

[D.T. Benner]

I was surprised to hear that people have had pad taper wear with iron LD-20 calipers?
When I bought my 2003 Zetec New it came with PFC Rotors and Pads and I have used nothing else. They work Very well and I have never had a taper wear problem.
I look forward to seeing how this alloy caliper thing works out and would consider a change if there is a combination that fits my budget and shows a better time on the Data results.
I will have to let others do the experimenting on their dime but look forward to the results!

[Brakeguy1]

Richard Pare is correct. The brakes stops the wheels, its the tires that stop the car. Well at least we hope its the tires and not an immovable object

For instance, a Panoz DP01 ChampCar would have spikes of -4.1G with sustained -3.5G at Sebring's short course when it was well rubbered in (too many cars testing all at once) so we had artificially too much much grip to learn anything about the cars. By the way, the DP01 would have roughly -1.2G of aero and engine drag just lifting off the throttle. So in this case, a ChampCar would decel as hard Nascar Sprint Cup car at Martinsville just lifting!! Don't get me wrong, I love both challenges, they are unique to each other.

I must admit, I have been getting quite a few inquiries from the readership. Its all been good stuff,

Darrick

[jtwrace]

- Joe, we should have the web site up fairly soon, hopefully within a week since we have a lot of announcements forthcoming.
Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

Is the site up? If so, what is the webstie address?

[R. Pare]

Had a chance to sit down with Darrick at the Indy show for a while to discuss the new brakes. The new PFC caliper is quiite nice, and is a welcome addition to the mix you will have available to choose from.

I will be introducing our new alu calipers (2-pot and 4-pot) shortly after the first of the year. We will continue to produce the CI caliper for many years to come for the classes that still mandate CI calipers (the bleeding issue was addressed last year, and the taper issue can be fixed if you really want, but that will be at the expense of responsivness).

I'll have pictures of the new calipers at the PRI show. Stop by if you are interested (Hyperco booth as usual).

[Brakeguy1]

November 21, 2009, Performance Friction Corp. Inc is proud to announce its newest addition to its winning line of racing brake calipers. The Z55 2-piece billet calipers are designed to enhance small open wheel formula cars performance and are the legal IRL U.S. F2000 Series aluminum brake caliper.

Extensive FEA studies have produced a stiff, responsive and unique solution to the 40+ year old cast iron LD20 calipers. The PFC Zr55 calipers will bring weight savings of -9.75lbs per carset with optimized piston area and location for proper force distribution. High temperature heat caps with rocket nozzle insulators are standard for a conservative bulk temperature reduction of over 150F (65c) in the caliper’s operating temperatures making the Zr55 calipers the choice for the most severe track conditions including street courses.

PFC has produced a new and unique 7832 pad shape for higher, smoother bite with lower drag, faster response and quicker release. The new PFC caliper/pad combination fits the PFC 255.10.0042.03/04 high temperature single plane discs that have been part of the fabric of F2000 since the 1990’s.

Shown installed on the latest 2010 Van Dieman and Citation radial mounting uprights, radial mounting adds superior installation stiffness. Radial mount brackets for other applications will be soon added for older uprights with lug mounting.

For more information, contact;

Darrick Dong
Director of Motorsports
Performance Friction Corporation, Inc
803-222-8128
Ddong@performancefriction.com;

[nulrich]

It sounds like there will be several choices for brake calipers for F2000 this year. And competition is good for the consumer. This will hopefully lead to SCCA making them legal for club racing in 2011.

Darrick says in his post that their new PFC calipers "are the legal IRL U.S. F2000 Series aluminum brake caliper." Not sure if that means that Dan Andersen's series will have spec calipers for 2010, maybe he can clarify?

Our calipers are available now. I'll have samples at PRI. If anyone would like to inspect them in person, just send me an email or PM.

Just to reiterate:

- Our calipers are a bolt-on replacement for the LD20. Optimal stiffness can be achieved in either lug mount or radial mount. A radial mount caliper with an adapter is the least stiff solution if you have lug mount uprights.

- Our calipers have four pistons and differential piston sizes. This is the stiffest and lightest design, improves brake feel, and eliminates pad taper wear. It does make the caliper more costly to produce.

- Our calipers are 100 mm (3.94") wide. They will fit any existing F2000 wheel. The new PFC calipers are 120 mm wide, 10 mm wider than the LD20 and 20 mm wider than our caliper, so you should check fit on your upright/wheel combination. For example, PFC calipers will interfere with the wheel on our uprights.

- Our calipers weigh 2.2 lbs each. They save 12.2 lbs per carset over LD20 calipers (assuming 5.25 lbs per LD20 caliper).

- Our calipers cost $300 each. We may raise that once the prices for our competitors' calipers are announced .

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[VehDyn]

Cool calipers. Too bad the FB guys can't use them as they have that rule that disallows calipers with different bore sizes. What is that rule for again?

[Wren]

Cool calipers. Too bad the FB guys can't use them as they have that rule that disallows calipers with different bore sizes. What is that rule for again?

It was somehow supposed to save money. I'm not sure how it was supposed to save as much as allowing the FC conversion guys to use the calipers that came on their car.

[nulrich]

I assume the rule is to save cost? I'm sure it was well-intentioned.

We've had enough requests that we will be offering FB-legal calipers. Unfortunately, we are a bit backed up with parts for our new chassis, so they won't be available until late January.

Nathan
Radon Sport LLC

[Brakeguy1]

Readers

The New PFC Zr55 will be featured on the 2010 US F2000 Van Dieman in the IRL Booth at the 2009 PRI Tradeshow as well as be on display at the PFC Booth #2731. Also featured at the PFC booth will be the new .017N Swift F-Nippon car. If you love open wheel racers, you've got to see this car. Robin Miller will be doing a feature on it on Speed.

PFC has a standing policy with the New Z55 brake package for F2000 racers who install our latest brake package and follow our setup instructions.

.2 tenths quicker than what is on the F2000 cars now and legal for both F2000 series or current FC SCCA specifications or your money back.

We're sure there will be many claims as to features and benefits from the "other" brake companies who choose to participate with F2000. We have put our considerable reputation and product strength on the table with this new Z55 brake package.

Everything about the PFC Z55 brake package addresses areas of improvement and if we had the time to lobby for monobloc designs at lower costs than the current 2-piece architecture, that feature would have been assigned as well. Low weight, lowest drag, excellent stiffness to mass properties, highest torque output, quickest release, coolest caliper temperatures, unique torque take out, it's all there........and quicker lap-times or your money back.

This new package will now allow new pad compound developments because proper force distribution has been addressed. Please come by the 2009 PRI Tradeshow this next week in Orlando, FL and be part of the excitement.

Darrick Dong
Performance Friction Brakes

[Wren]

.2 tenths quicker than what is on the F2000 cars now and legal for both F2000 series or current FC SCCA specifications or your money back.

Doesn't the 2010 GCR require ferrous brake calipers for FC?

[R. Pare]

Yes - the rules state ferrous, which is why we will continue production of ours until the demand dries up.

[D.T. Benner]

Price? Will they work with the PF 3/8" thick rotors? I can't make it to PRI so how about some Pics?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Who built the 2010 VD, Elan in GA???

[R. Pare]

I know your query was to Darrick, but I'll post some pics of ours next month as soon as Doug gives me permission - gotta become a paying advertiser first!

If anyone wants, I can e-mail a .jpg with specs for now.

[Brakeguy1]

I would love to post photos of the new PFC F2000 brakes but because of various press releases forthcoming at the PRI show, I'm not allowed to yet. As far as legal for FC, no not yet but I would think as more and more F2000 racers running in both US F2000 and F2000, the SCCA will soon face aluminum calipers as an "option" as do the F2000 series'.

The current Z55 is designed for 10.0mm thick disc so a 3/8" one will fit. The current Z55 caliper shoulders fit's 255.0mm (10.0") with enough shoulder area to support up to 323.0mm(12.7")

So the option is up to racers, use PFC or not. Its what competition should be. let the best raise to the top of the podium. And YES, the new F2000 Van Dieman was built by Elan in Georgia.

But I do have a have few photos of the new 017N Swift F-Nippon car.

• 1300-lbs with driver and fuel
• Full downforce tunnels
• 3.4L V8 IRL type engines with 640hp plus push to pass or an added 60hp.
• F1 Bridgestone tires
• 6-speed Ricardo paddle shift gearbox
• Made in the USA

[Peter Horvath]

- Our calipers are a bolt-on replacement for the LD20. Optimal stiffness can be achieved in either lug mount or radial mount. A radial mount caliper with an adapter is the least stiff solution if you have lug mount uprights.

- Our calipers have four pistons and differential piston sizes. This is the stiffest and lightest design, improves brake feel, and eliminates pad taper wear. It does make the caliper more costly to produce.

- Our calipers are 100 mm (3.94") wide. They will fit any existing F2000 wheel. The new PFC calipers are 120 mm wide, 10 mm wider than the LD20 and 20 mm wider than our caliper, so you should check fit on your upright/wheel combination. For example, PFC calipers will interfere with the wheel on our uprights.


Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

Can I take the pads out of my LD20's and pop them into your calipers?

[nulrich]

Is that Formula Nippon legal in FC? Pretty car...nice thing about spec classes, you can make them look good without worrying about performance!

Darrick, I think you stepped in it...you're probably supposed to wait until Thursday for Dan Andersen to have his big press release at PRI! I don't have any inside information, but here's what I hear through the grapevine:

- He's going to announce a spec car (or cars) for 2010. It will have spec dampers, aero, and now it sounds like spec brakes. I'm assuming it will be the "new" Van Diemen (which is basically the same old car with some cosmetic upgrades) and maybe the Mygale?

- Any FC legal chassis will be allowed to run in the series for 2010, but it will have a different restrictor and/or map to give it a 15 to 20 hp power disadvantage. I guess they realize that new chassis like the Radon or the new Ralph Firman car will be a lot faster than the 15 year old design of the Van Diemen (now made by Elan) and need to give the older designs an advantage.

- I have no idea if the Citation or Piper will be allowed at the same power level as the Elan. I'm assuming neither company wants to give a cut of their sales to Andersen to be one of the spec chassis, so they'll also have to run at a power handicap.

Too bad. Spec classes have been the death of formula car racing in this country, the last thing we need is another one. Plus they are boring .

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[nulrich]

Can I take the pads out of my LD20's and pop them into your calipers?

Yes. Changeover time is however long it takes you to remove and replace four brake calipers and bleed the brakes. Total cost is $1200. Our caliper is both lighter and stiffer than any other F2000 caliper (including, from all appearances, the PFC).

Oh, and we don't boast about it, but all of our products have a money-back guarantee. If you are not satisfied, for any reason, we'll take your undamaged aero parts or calipers back for a full refund. We probably won't extend that to the new chassis, though .

Nathan

[dc]

Ok, what was originally a legitimate product post by Nathan who was a banner advertiser at the time, has become a thread for anyone who has a new machined FC caliper to pimp their products.

Anyone who'd like to legally promote a new product is welcome to click on the Advertising link at the top and check out the details for advertising legitimately here on ApexSpeed. Support the site that brings you customers...