New brake calipers for FC

[nulrich]

We are beginning a production run of our new FC brake calipers. They are the exact equivalent of an LD20 in terms of mounting, brake pad, and clearances.

The caliper will be offered in two versions: an aluminum caliper for the F2000 pro series (where they will be allowed in 2010) and a ferrous caliper for SCCA Club Racing. (Note: the ferrous caliper will not be legal in FF, which requires cast iron calipers.)

The calipers were optimized using both FEA and bench testing, and are slightly stiffer than the LD20 cast iron caliper. This makes them many times stiffer than any other LD20 replacement.

The aluminum caliper weighs just over 2 lbs, and costs $300 per caliper.

The ferrous caliper weighs just under 3 lbs, and costs $600 per caliper.

I should have plenty of the aluminum calipers in stock, but I am only doing a small production run of the ferrous calipers, so if you have any interest in a set, let me know.

Photos of prototypes are attached.

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[azjc]

Have to chuckle... isn't the reason for ferrous to keep gost down ?

[John LaRue]

I usually am on the email distribution list for rule changes. I went to the web page for the series and did not see any announcement, but perhaps I overlooked such. Are there any other rule changes that we should be aware of? I heard that they might be allowing the composite tub car as was under consideration a few years back; any truth to that?

John

[Purple Frog]

John,

At the Champion's banquet last Sunday night, Bob Wright (one of the Series owners) did announce that aluminum calipers would be legal in the F2000 Series next season. I'm thinking what with travel and all, Monty didn't post it on the web-site yet. Usually Monty doesn't post rule changes and such until he gets it in writing from an owner.

As far as i can remember that was the only announced rule change (usually they do tell me... ).

[John LaRue]

So much for keeping the rules in line eh? Different map, calipers...... I guess I should not complain as I did not run any of the races but this is a serious consideration to jump back and forth.

[rickb99]

The aluminum caliper weighs just over 2 lbs, and costs $300 per caliper.

The ferrous caliper weighs just under 3 lbs, and costs $600 per caliper.

Hmmm....

1.
The aluminum one is 3/4th's the price of a new ferrous LD-20 caliper. A GOOD BUY!!

2.
The ferrious one is 50% MORE then a new LD-20. Why would I buy that??

[Bob Wright]

mmm...John, Its an option, not a requirement or a 'must have'. If one wants the lightest caliper possible its still ICP.

Among other things we're accomodating a couple of car constructors who don't want to put ferrous calipers on their new cars.

And, if I'm not mistaken, even S2000 will probably be able to use aluminum calipers next year.

Oh, and our only other rule change for next year is unleaded fuel which I hope SCCA will also spec in 2010.

Rick- it might be an interesting exercise to see how many new AP LD20's you could actually buy.

[John LaRue]

FC will not use aluminum calipers in SCCA. Ferrous calipers remain available.

S2 will likely be able to use an aluminum caliper as the caliper they commonly use is no longer available.

[Matt M.]

What the hell are those things and what are they used for?? I usually take stuff off the car if it slows it down.....

[Bumpdraft]

Nate,
When will your website be ready?

Bumpdraft

[Bob Wright]

John, you're preaching the company line. One wonders why my properly submitted proposal was defeated at the advisory committee level and never allowed to be reviewed by and voted on by the broader SCCA membership?

Just because ferrous calipers are "available" doesn't mean they're any good or haven't been superseded by something much better and less expensive.

[Bumpdraft]

Amen Bob!!

I saw the prototype aliminum caliper last weekend, and being a machine designer and a former machinest, I can say they looked very good from all points of view.

Bumpdraft

[Wren]

So what are the new F2000 brake rules? Any aluminum caliper, or just an aluminum LD20?

[John LaRue]

Bob,

There is no company line with me. If you are alluding to the fact that because I run a Citation and it is equpped with the ICP calipers I am doing their bidding you are mistaken. I do not do anyone's bidding unless they are a paying client and the last time I reviewed my checkbook I was paying, not ICP or Citation Engineering.

A vote was taken and the proposal was not moved forward at the Advisory Committee level because there are two sources for ferrous calipers. This fact was confirmed by Chariman David Arken. In this regard the following information was circulated to the Committee:

--- On Thu, 6/18/09, Kevin McDonnell <kevin.mcdonnell@apracing.co.uk> wrote:

From: Kevin McDonnell <kevin.mcdonnell@apracing.co.uk>
Subject: RE: AP Racing - Contact Form
To: arkend@sbcglobal.net
Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 12:04 AM

David,
Yes, we do still make the cast iron calipers, I have attached the details
above for both versions that are still available.

Best Regards


Kevin McDonnell
Rally Engineer
Tel: +44 (0)24 76883315
Fax: +44 (0)24 76639559
Mob: +44 7785 222761

As noted in an earlier post, the aluminum caliper was recommended by the committee for S2 since there is no ferrous caliper available in that particular size/configuration. (LD65??)

Bob, it is certainly your series and if you want aluminum calipers thus it shall be. I think the series is great and I am not taking a stab at you or Mike and your managment thereof, just pointing out my differing opinion on this issue. I simply disagree with departure from Club rules when in my eyes there is not a good solid reason behind it. This rule is simply one reason for racers not to play in both camps. There is not a great deal of cross over so perhaps it is not a major issue, but departing from Club rules was in my opinion where Baytos got in trouble.

As you correctly point out, these calipers are not mandatory however if nothing else they will be a perceived necessity and will be an expense for most every existing car in the series. At this time I can probably afford to purchase a set of aluminum calipers to run if I so desire and believe them to be an advantage; how will others react? Are they ready to spend the necessary $1200 for the upgrade?

Time will certainly tell and it is a step forward albeit a slippery slope.

Cheers,

John LaRue

[LenFC11]

during last years rebuild of my car i needed an ld20 caliper. it was by far the single hardest part to source. many phone calls, with a lot of oh no's. i did eventually find one, but i paid heavily for it. would have prefered this option.

[quartzracer]

I suspect these are a direct bolt on to a late model VanDiemen rear upright? Will they accommodate a .700 vented rotor?

[rickb99]

during last years rebuild of my car i needed an ld20 caliper. it was by far the single hardest part to source. many phone calls, with a lot of oh no's. i did eventually find one, but i paid heavily for it. would have prefered this option.

I certainly like the somewhat lighter (being 53 pounds over minimum weight anything helps) and CHEAPER aluminum option to the LD-20 if and when we need to replace them on the Reynard.

But, Pegasus does say they have them in stock for $400

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...p?Product=3586

Allowing these new units in FC doesn't seem to give a whole lot of unsprung weight improvement but it DOES reduce the replacement costs when needed.

It's certainly worth a serious consideration rather then an out right rejection based on keeping ferrous metal in the game. After all, aluminum is as recyclable as iron. No harm to the environment

[kea]

Looks more like a S2000, 4 piston caliper to me.
Anyway.
John LaRue, nicely said.

[Rick Kirchner]

AP has one aluminum caliper at 2.4 lbs and another at 1.7, ICPs are 2.5 lb and undoubtedly much cheaper than the APs. Haven't been able to find a wilwood part.

My car is as light as it's going to get without CF bodywork and new calipers.

I've been on this soapbox before, but if you are a big guy, getting the car anywhere close to minimums if you don't own a new piper or citation, can get expensive at first and impossible at the end.

I will admit that the cheapest way to take weight off the car is to take it off my a$$ first. That, however, is much more difficult than opening up the checkbook.

[Rick Iverson]

Do a poll.

[kea]

Rick (Iverson),
I know many formula car racers, who do not surf the internet, on much of a regular basis, thus doing a poll, only counts those who do.

[nulrich]

A lot of questions, I'll try to answer those that I can:

- My understanding is that the F2000 series will allow any aluminum caliper. I'm sure Bob Wright will correct me if I'm wrong.

- Our ferrous calipers have a high selling price because they cost a lot to make. We are doing a small run and my margin is actually less on the ferrous calipers, but several friends have asked me to make them for use in club racing (they plan to switch back and forth).

- Matt, those are called "brakes." I know you don't like to use them, instead taking advantage of curbs, helpless drivers in front of you, or inanimate objects, but some of the older drivers slow down for the corners .

- Joe, we should have the web site up fairly soon, hopefully within a week since we have a lot of announcements forthcoming.

- I'm sure the caliper would work on a thicker vented rotor with a spacer or a modification to the halves, but I'd have to look into it. Unfortunately, it won't be high on my priority list for some time.

I originally designed the ferrous caliper back in January 2009, but Bob Wright convinced me to hold off on production since he thought that Club Racing might make aluminum calipers legal. Now that seems unlikely, I'm going ahead with making a few sets. I will freely admit that it makes no sense to machine a ferrous caliper, but since there are no proper ferrous racing calipers available, we had no choice.

The aluminum calipers will be standard on our F2000 car, and ferrous calipers will be an option.

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[Purple Frog]

Reading this thread, and the carbon fiber thread, and the Honda Fit thread, I have come to a conclusion:

We don't like new materials if there's a chance it will raise the cost.

We don't like new materials if there's a chance it will lower the cost.

We don't like anything new.

Oh yeah, we aren't even reading this because we don't have internet access.

[DS63]

Reading this thread, and the carbon fiber thread, and the Honda Fit thread, I have come to a conclusion:

We don't like new materials if there's a chance it will raise the cost.

We don't like new materials if there's a chance it will lower the cost.

We don't like anything new.

Oh yeah, we aren't even reading this because we don't have internet access.

[Todd TCE]

We prefer to live in the past. Supply and demand....in no time this will be a $150 part for everyone. Didn't we go through this with other 1600 parts??

[Modo]

We just got new, new zetec map which may do out the pinto, tbd........new pinto parts, cam and flywheel to the tune of $750 if u did it urself, how much new do u want...... hey cf tubs, aluminum brakes, cf body parts, 190 hp chip in zetec and a hans device will undoubtably get u laid, excuse the 60's high school jargon

[Larry]

You have succinctly stated the view of a large portion of the FF/FC community. Change is bad. Forty years of tradition unhampered by progess is good.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Brad Smith]

Those calipers are really nice looking parts! Won't the 4 piston design help with pad taper issues? That should help offset some of the cost.

[John Robinson II]

Those calipers are really nice looking parts! Won't the 4 piston design help with pad taper issues? That should help offset some of the cost.

My understanding is it will not help unless the pistons are different sizes.
But they look really cool.
John

[Billy Wight]

Nathan, the design looks symmetric, why are there directional arrows? Can the same caliper be used on all four corners? Also, what does that under 3 pound weight include? Pistons, seals, bolts, bleeder valves, pads?

[Camadella]

Bob,

There is no company line with me. If you are alluding to the fact that because I run a Citation and it is equpped with the ICP calipers I am doing their bidding you are mistaken. I do not do anyone's bidding unless they are a paying client and the last time I reviewed my checkbook I was paying, not ICP or Citation Engineering.

A vote was taken and the proposal was not moved forward at the Advisory Committee level because there are two sources for ferrous calipers. This fact was confirmed by Chariman David Arken. In this regard the following information was circulated to the Committee:

I don't think that the point here is whether or not ferrous calipers are available. What I think that the committee didn't consider is whether or not the FC class should evolve with the changes in technology that have been happening over the last 40 years or so.

FC (and FF) cars are purpose built racing cars. How many other modern purpose built racing cars are being produced that have iron brake calipers? The fact that we have iron brake calipers is exactly like the fact that NASCAR cars have carburetors, truck arms, and spindles from 1950-something Chevrolet Impalas. There are a lot of better and cheaper solutions, but we do it this way because that's how we've always done it.

The currently available off the shelf solutions that we FC racers have available to us (before Nathan is done with his calipers) are the AP's and the ICP's.

The AP's are quite stiff, but are very heavy, and are not that much cheaper than Nathan's machined steel calipers.

The ICP's are much lighter, but have a myriad of known problems - all of which are documented elsewhere on ApexSpeed if you care to look. Anyone who has them (including me) has to work around their eccentricities by changing the pads well before they're worn out, and by unbolting the caliper from the car in order to bleed them. In addition, the ICP's are much less stiff than the AP's, resulting in less brake pedal feel.

All that Nathan's products show is that the rule that's somehow meant to save money (I'm assuming that's why the rule is in place - if it's not, then please tell me why it is) actually costs MORE money. If you want to have a properly designed, light and stiff ferrous caliper, it costs more to make by a significant margin than a comparable aluminum one. It's that simple. No one is telling you that you have to buy them. All Nathan is saying is that he's making them available, they meet the rules, and if you want them they cost this much to make.

You can never legislate low cost into any racing rules. In fact, many racers will actually spend more money, as they will in this case, in order to go faster within the money-saving rules than they would have had those rules not been in place.

I think that the rule requiring ferrous calipers is completely outdated, and the fact that iron calipers are available has nothing to do with whether or not we should change the rule.

Cheers,

Chris C.

[nulrich]

The pistons are different sizes to eliminate taper wear, which is why the calipers are directional. Probably not obvious from the photo, but you notice it in the actual parts.

The caliper weight includes everything but pads.

Nathan Ulrich
Radon Sport LLC

[TimW]

The ICP's are much lighter, but have a myriad of known problems - all of which are documented elsewhere on ApexSpeed if you care to look. Anyone who has them (including me) has to work around their eccentricities by changing the pads well before they're worn out, and by unbolting the caliper from the car in order to bleed them. In addition, the ICP's are much less stiff than the AP's, resulting in less brake pedal feel.

I think most of these issues are addressed in the latest castings, no? No more unbolting the caliper to bleed and when I did a bench test with ICP & LD20s on one master cylinder (so both calipers had the same pressure at the same time) the ICPs were a good bit stiffer (don't have the numbers here at work, but the deflection numbers were measurably less). It was not a laboratory accurate test, but it was good enough to be indicative. The additional clearance in the pistons which creates the taper is a design decision that does require active maintenance which is unfortunate, but I'm sure Richard can chime in and say what the advantage was in that design decision over the additional maintenance incurred. You can use your pads until their done, you just need extra backing plates, which is another pound added to the car if you're cheap to use all the pad in them. Everything is a trade off.

I'm not trying to argue for iron, ferrous or ally here, just trying to clarify some statements with my experience in installing the newest ICP castings this season.

Tim

[John LaRue]

Chris,

I understand the idea of moving the class forward and do not disagree that such is a good idea in certain aspects. The proposal that Bob set forth however read more as one in which there was a lack of availability of iron calipers and thus the need for alternative sources rather than one of advancing the technology of FC. Granted the proposal did reference advancements in manufacturing technology and possible cost savings, but it also indicated that there was NO performance advantage to having aluminum calipers other than weight savings over the AP. If there is not an advantage to having them then why build or have them? (Admit it, becasue they look zoomy!)

In considering the possibility of a rule change such as this it seems that the SCCA mentaility is to look at the cost impact upon the existing carsin the class. While I hate to speak for the Committee, I believe that the prevailing thought was that if there are cast iron calipers available (even if at a greater cost than aluminum and from only one source) the overall impact on the class is less to mainatin the existing rule. It is the same argument/consideration that came up when the Zetec was adopted, the aluminum head, the FIT for FF, etc.... Given that there (i) is not a shortage of calipers; (ii) there were likely to be few cars that would not be built because of a ferrrous caliper rule; and (iii) that the "perceived" performance advantage of the aluminum caliper would essentially cause most car owners to see a need to convert, the committee voted to stay the course.

After I reviewed Bob's response in this thread I began to ponder how the committee would have reacted had the proposal been more clearly directed towards advancing the technology in F; as for that I do not know. I would surmise that a change simply to advance the technology would not be well received as that does not seem to be the midset of the SCCA with respect to closed formula classes. (Consider the other discussion occuring with respect to allowing carbon fibre body work and bell housings; how do you feel about that? What does the FC community as a whole think of these items?) Personally it matters little to me other than to switch back and forth will now be something of a pain and an additional cost that I otherwise did not need to incur. (Yes, I know it is optional.)

If we are going to go this far however why not look at really ticking it up a notch and permitting carbon-carbon brake technology as well? We could get some massive weight out of the system increase performance of the cars and significantly increase the life of the pads and rotors. In addition, if you consider safety, the rotating unsprung mass is significantly lighter further reducing the hazards associated with a break away corner. Far fetched, perhaps?

I suppose it comes down to the philosophy of the various classes and how they are envisioned to evolve, if at all. If the FC of FF community want to advance technology then they need to write letters accordingly and be specific as to the intended goals and the positive impact on the class as a whole.

John

[Rick Iverson]

Q1: Is there a mechanical advantage?

Q2: Is it less expensive?

[glenn cooper]

am I the only one w/ ICP TWIN piston, iron calipers on my RF98/99 FC chassis?
There's not been much in the way of discusion of the extra pistons.
It is my belief that a 4 piston caliper would out perform a twin piston setup. T or F?
As for special bleeding of ICP calipers, my rears have 1 bleeder each caliper. located top/outboard.
My fronts have 2 bleeders each, both on top.
Is there something I am missing in bleeding these units bolted onto the upright?
They seem to work very well, I can't imagine I am missing anything...

As for using the pads all the way to the backing plates by backing them up w/ spacers:
Yeah, sounds like a good plan. How's that working out for ya?

Thanks, GC

[TimW]

As for using the pads all the way to the backing plates by backing them up w/ spacers:
Yeah, sounds like a good plan. How's that working out for ya?

With LD20s, I've safely run the pads down to 0.25 total thickness without issue (backing plate + remaining pad material). My reference to using all the pad available with the ICP was to get to the 0.25 dimension without issue like I could on the LD20s; simply trying to get the same life/use that you get with the LD20s safely.

[S Lathrop]

I am taking as a given that the rules are changed and 4 piston alloy calipers are legal in pro FC. As yet I have not seen exactly how the rules are worded.

FB allows alloy 4 piston calipers but they are restricted to 4 equal bore pistons. Not ideal. Yet S2000 is trying to eliminate mono block alloy calipers but allowing differential bores. I have no idea what FC pro is planning to do. Combined all these classes (FC-pro, FB, S2) would barely make a market for one manufacturer.

The idea, as I see it, is that pro FC is going to approve an alloy caliper that is a a direct replacement for the AP and ICP two piston LD20 cast iron caliper. Remember that this is a replacement for a single caliper that can be used on any corner. What we are going to is a four piston, differential bore caliper. This will for sure help the taper ware problem.

Differential bore, four piston calipers have to be made in four different configurations depending on which corner they are used and how they are positioned on the upright. Thus when you look at AP and Brembo F3 calipers you will see that there are 4 different part numbers.

The pictures of the calipers in this thread appear to be equal bore but there is a direction arrow indicating that the caliper is handed.

For cost comparison, The Wilwood caliper that we are using on the Citation FB costs $150. But this is a radial mount 4 equal size piston caliper. Thus the caliper can be used on any corner. $300 is very fair price for the proposed calipers if you consider that the calipers have to made in 4 different configurations.

Once you quit the 2 piston calipers and go for 4 pistons, the F3 calipers are the closest to FC application available. Both AP and Brembo make F3 specific calipers. Sorry but I can only guess at the price. Maybe close to $500 each?

The next issue that I am wondering about is whether .375 solid disks or .63 vented will be optimum. ICP .375 rotors cost $100 each but .63 cost a multiple of that.

Simultaneously with caliper and rotor questions is pad compound.

Also notice that the 4 piston calipers all have long and narrow pads compared to two piston calipers. The exception that I am aware of is the LD 65 caliper (S2000 stuff) that had a pad that was very close to the LD20 but with a larger backing plate because of the 4 pistons in the caliper. The LD 65 caliper was a Volvo invention for the 140 series cars. The 4 pistons were part of a dual braking system that had 2 pistons on each front caliper linked to a single rear brake caliper.

The worst case I see is that .375 rotors with a F3 type caliper proves to be the hot setup. Funny but that is not currently on the market, yet. Is this where we are headed? http://www.apracing.com/calipers/pro...F%3E_2662_2611.


Is this the unintended consequences of good intentioned rules changes? Funny but I find this a fun challenge. But a lot of people are going to spend a lot of money figuring this problem out.

[Wren]

Posted above someone thinks that any aluminum caliper is acceptable. I think it is going to be pretty cool to see some of the monoblock calipers that will eventually show up. Once you are machining new calipers, it's only a small step to make the bodies out of one piece material. You only need a right angle drive and you are good to go. It takes 4 calipers as spares now though.

The latest Citation uprights already have separate threaded holes for mounting FC legal calipers or FB legal calipers. Maybe they need one more set of holes.

[glenn cooper]

Nathan, is there any way you could do up a set of the aluminium calipers w/ equal sized pistons?
For some reason the FB rules pkg specifies = piston size, and I am considering upgrading.
Just checking it all out, thanks.
GC