Ideas: convert air-cooled FSV to MC drivetrain

[TeamFRD]

Someone take a guess at the cost of converting my 74 air-cooled Formula Super Vee to motorcycle drivetrain. Just curious as I begin another engine build. Goal: long term reliability and maintenance ease.

-Engine
-Engine mounts
-radiator
-Replace Hewland MK8:

-Diff
-chain mount/diff mount fabrication
-reuse current axles? Bolt ons? New diff width the same as Mk8?

[Mike B]

A long time ago, Sean O'Connell posted a detailed breakdown of his F1000 build. After spending an evening looking for it about a year ago, I saved it in a word document and paste it here with apologies to Sean:

Everyone keeps asking what it costs to do this. Here is it in a nutshell.
Cost to convert:
You get to sell the Pinto ($3000-$4500 depending), the LD200 ($1700- $2500) any gears, bellhousing, Pinto spares, etc.
The cost of the conversion will depend on how fancy you want to get and how much work you do yourself. Pro-built motor? Limited Slip diff? Dry sump? Shifter?
In my case I sold a bunch of parts off the car (raised aprox $8000) plus I counted what I would have spent on rebuilding the engine ($3500).
The framework was done by Crutchfield who also installed the engine. Total there was $9200 including all of the misc parts (fuel pump, regulator, lines, chain, oil cooler, yada yada) and headers. $2500 for the new engine, $1500 for the dry sump, $3200 for the diff, $800 Pingle, $100 dash, $800 for a new fuel cell, $200 waterpump.
Now we are at $6800, but I just took the car to Comprent for a few minor items. Figure another $1500.
So my cost above what I would have in a RF96 with a fresh motor was $8300, but I have a VERY fresh (new?) FS as almost everything in the car is now brand new (even things I did not list like bellypan, jabrock floors, radiator...)
Out of pocket was $13,300ish (including Comprent) for the turn-key car.
Add in another $1000 of things I've forgotten about and call it $14,300.
So if you started w/ a RF95 for $10,000 and sold stuff quickly you would have around $4500 in it. Add the $14,300 I spent and its $18,800.
But what if you did the framework yourself? Did not dry sump, used a spool, and no shifters. What if your fuel cell did not leak...
$4500 in the RF95, $1500 for a motor (Ebay), $750 for the spool/ axles, $1000 in misc parts, $500 in tubing/ stuff...
you are looking at $8250 total.
So the range to build a 1000cc FS (that started as a mid-90s FC) would be from $8500 to $24,000 (with a built motor) starting from scratch. If you own the FC subtract whatever you can sell plus the $4500.

Here is the interesting part....
I've got to believe that should my car perform like I hope the value will be close to $20,000 (?). If a RF96 is worth $11,000 now (I got a roller w/ spares this summer for $8800) thats $9000 over the F2000 RF96. Conversion cost $14,300... true conversion cost is $5300- subtract the engine rebuild and its $1800!!

[Stan Clayton]

...take a guess at the cost of converting my 74 air-cooled Formula Super Vee to motorcycle drivetrain.

The cost? Death by kawabunga...

[provamo]

as they say if you have to ask then you can't afford it

that being said may i ask why you just don't keep intact what i assume to be a factory built collectible formula racing car with some history and buy a used F1000 like that verrry fast one recently offered on this site by a gentleman Jeremey Hill in ontario?

i just hate to see another period car despoiled

[pahillclimber]

Why???


I would have tried to use a 13b rotary or a Subaru WRX engine before reinventing the wheel with a M/C package. Both of these engines are close to the same weight and length as a Type 4 engine, plus Kennedy Engineering makes reasonable priced kits to mate to a VW/ Hewland gearbox. The 13B in good condition might be hard to find but, the WRX should be easy.

Rich

[RussMcB]

Why???


I would have tried to use a 13b rotary or a Subaru WRX engine before reinventing the wheel with a M/C package. Both of these engines are close to the same weight and length as a Type 4 engine, plus Kennedy Engineering makes reasonable priced kits to mate to a VW/ Hewland gearbox. The 13B in good condition might be hard to find but, the WRX should be easy.

Rich

Couple of reasons come to mind: Weight and price. The motorcycle engine (with transmission) is a lot lighter than a car engine and separate transmission. The availability of motorcycle engines usually means they can be bought pretty cheap ($1,000 - $2,500).

I'm not saying he should do it, but I understand the attraction of a 13,000 RPM, lightweight, 6 speed sequential power plant with an efficient chain drive.

One of the down sides: No reverse gear (unless you go to the trouble of adding something).

[formulasuper]

Someone take a guess at the cost of converting my 74 air-cooled Formula Super Vee to motorcycle drivetrain. Just curious as I begin another engine build. Goal: long term reliability and maintenance ease.

-Engine
-Engine mounts
-radiator
-Replace Hewland MK8:

-Diff
-chain mount/diff mount fabrication
-reuse current axles? Bolt ons? New diff width the same as Mk8?

I can't imagine why anyone would want a lighter, faster, more reliable, modern-high tech, high reving, 6 spd power train package with computer controled fuel injected & ignition that is readily available for a fraction of cost of the original VW engine & Hewland tranny.

[RussMcB]

New diff width the same as Mk8?

Just noticed this particular question.

Yes, there are a few manufacturers offering chain drive diffs that mimic the Hewland stub axles. Also, it's pretty common to use spacers to take up any gaps if the axles are too short for the diff you've chosen. Mike Devins @ HRP built a honda (car) based diff for me, and Taylor Race Engineering helped me create a proper spacer (used on one side only, enabling me to continue to use the original halfshafts).

[formulasuper]

Just noticed this particular question.

Yes, there are a few manufacturers offering chain drive diffs that mimic the Hewland stub axles. Also, it's pretty common to use spacers to take up any gaps if the axles are too short for the diff you've chosen. Mike Devins @ HRP built a honda (car) based diff for me, and Taylor Race Engineering helped me create a proper spacer (used on one side only, enabling me to continue to use the original halfshafts).

And you can use your original radiator & oil cooler.

[Fred Michael]

And you can use your original radiator & oil cooler.

Good luck with that original radiator.Haha.

[formulasuper]

Good luck with that original radiator.Haha.

I'm using the original RT5 radiator with my Hayabusa engine & it works great. His should be petty much leak proof!
Maybe if he wants to keep it vintage he could use an older aircooled mc engine.

[Steve Demeter]

If the SV is a monoque (sp) it will have to run in FS.

IIRC, F1000 requires tube frames but I have been wrong before.

I also agree that unless one is simply an irrepressible tinkerer, sell it as a vintage car, take the money and spend it on a fast F1000.

[pahillclimber]

Russ and Scott,

This is a vintage car, it should be left as close as possible to it's orginial form. I have seen perfectly good vintage cars get cut up to the point that they are worth nothing as an orginial car.

Case in point, we have an orginial 1964 Beach Fv that runs the hills. The car was perfectly restored Fv, the owner has choosen to modifiy it over time to the point that it has wings, ball joint front end, wide wheels, and a 2000+ cc engine, which he has blown about 4-5 engines. With all of the money that this man has spent he could have had a converted FC to FB and had a modern suspension and all the thrills of a m/c powered car.

I do not question that FB's are fun, but converting this car makes little sense to me. As it is now, it is a solo car that might be a vintage car; converted it is a solo only car with more fabrication needed to be FS legal.

Rich

[Rick Kirchner]

FRD runs autocross, so what would it be? B-mod based on the 70's virtually unlimited F5000 rules?

Seriously, the car's worth more as an unmolested vintage car. Also, have you considered what nearly 100HP more will do to twisting up that shallow tub? Not to mention the lack of driver protection.

Steve has it right: Sell the SV, but you could look to a clapped-out FF or CF as the baseline. Heck, if you find a Zink most of your brakes, uprights, and other suspension and driveline spares will swap right over.

[dd46637]

A/C Super Vee's were putting out 150+ HP in the mid to late 70's. M/C power would only bump it up 20 or so with a stock engine (F1000)

The car in this thread belonged to my father way back when. He sold it when the Gold Cup switched to rabbit engines. It went to an autocrosser here in South Bend, IN who made some pretty serious changes to it.

I believe that the tub has been shortened and the suspension narrowed. All this being done before the current owner bought it.

[TeamFRD]

Luv to see my FSV friends all excited

A/C Super Vee's were putting out 150+ HP in the mid to late 70's. M/C power would only bump it up 20 or so with a stock engine (F1000)

I have not got that brave. I'm guessing 110 bhp with 1679 & dual Webers.

I believe that the tub has been shortened and the suspension narrowed. All this being done before the current owner bought it.

All true.

If you own the FC subtract whatever you can sell plus the $4500. If you own the FC subtract whatever you can sell plus the $4500.

If I follow all that math, this is my answer.

[revtom]

Is this the former "Ill Gato" autocrosser I remember from the Traverse City Cherry Pits X-cross's of the 80's?

[TeamFRD]

Could be. I believe it was black then. History as I know -- Original owner (?) Bob Nunemaker raced it 3 times in Gold Cup. Larry Dawson 76-80. Shortened and narrowed in 1984 by Ricardo Gonzoles, South Bend IN. DRF purchased in 1996 from Mark Shwechter. Attended 98 Solo Natls...

[revtom]

Yep, that's the car. Ricardo ran it a few years at the airport course we had at the time. I'v never seen a car/driver run thru a shlolom (sp?) as beautifully as Ricardo in the SV; it would pivot about it's center, and fly thru. He was a very cool guy, who I haven't talked to in ages. My SV buddies and I are trying to get more of the SV's out for vintage races. (I have a Wheeler), consider saving her. Tom

[Steve Demeter]

I know that car. I once loaned Larry the shift lever out of mine since I had had a rather comprehensive crash on Saturday AM practice one race.