SRF vs VEE

[budawe]

This past weekend at Miller MS Park I was envolved in my 3rd 2009 accident with a SRF. This incident took place at the start and was the result of the SRF driver's inability to see a FV. I do not wish to turn this post into a SRF rant but I do plan to write the CRB and ask that they reconsider this combination. The last time I wrote about this issue, the CRB stated that it was not in their control. Clearly GCR 3.5.2 spells out the rules on class combinations and the CRB is in control of this issue.

I would appreciate any support and letters. Thank you Brian McCarthy, 32 year vee vet.

[dc]

How many regions around the country combine SRF and FV in the same run group? I don't think I have seen it done out here in the CenDiv, and frankly it would prohibit me from looking to FV as an option for next season if it were like that here.

Was your accident at a Regional or a National event?

[rickb99]

In the Northwest region:

FV's run with FF's and F500's with a split start if requested.

SRF's run with GP and HP with a split start if the SRF turnout is large enough.

Frankly, quite often the FV's WILL sort themselves into their OWN declared split start without a pace car if they are in the mood. I mean, whad-r-yah-gonna-do? DQ the entire field?

With that grouping, the very fastest FF's usually only lap the FV's once (maybe twice) on our 2 plus mile tracks.

[Wren]

I have run in a vee with SRF's in Florida before. It's not a fun grouping as the vees are faster through the corners and the SRF has HP.

[sracing]

Brian is right. I wouldn't even mind racing with a FA, I can see them coming and they can see me. However the SRF / FV mix is not well thought out. They can't see us, and they outweigh us. I haven't seen it done in this area, with the exception of a school at Charlotte years ago. I have heard of it happening in other areas. My letter on the way.

Jim
SR

[rickjohnson356]

SEDIV, at least the northern (non-FLA) part, runs FV with CF, FF, F5, F6 and starting this year, FC.

The FC's are in this group to keep the FE and FM from tangling with the FC. It has worked well so far. the exception being as stated above, the FV lose a lap to the FF, CF and FC. overall. The FV also often arrange their own split start--- primarily for safety and so that they can race together without interference for a couple of laps .

SRF is generally run with small production. run group.

I don't think I would enter the track if there were mixed open and closed wheel cars (except that S2000 and CSR sometimes are grouped with FM,FE etc) would depend on th enumber of cars in the group.

[budawe]

this incicdent took place at a National, Cal Club generally groups SRF & FV together. The official response is that since the SRF is a sports racer, an argument can be made about that, the GCR allows this combination.

[S Lathrop]

Back in the early days of Sports Renault the FV and SR were grouped together. The FV guys stopped that by running real close to the SR and if they made contact, they would hit the SR's rear toe link. That link is located perfectly for a nose that is hard enough to push another FV. After a few races, the SR guys chose to be grouped with the small prod guys.

[lancer360]

I can't believe this is still happening in some regions. There was a nasty F500/SRF wreck here in the SEDIV a couple of years ago. I think that finally spelled it out that it was an accident waiting to happen pairing SRF's with any FV/F5/FF. All three are just too low for an SRF to see. I had to run with SRF at my drivers school driving a F500. After almost being taken out passing on the inside on a corner I said to hell with that and just followed them until we hit the straight away and then motored by them. I would pack up and go home if that was the pairing on a race weekend. I like me and my car in one piece.

[BoulderG]

Rocky Mountain Division's Colorado Region and Continental Divide Region run the Small Bore Formula run group in the Regional races that includes Club Ford, Formula Ford, Formula Vee, and Spec Racer Ford. It also includes my car, which runs in the Region-only class Formula Junior. Also includes F500, but I haven't seen one.

[Amon]

I had this rookie in a SRF attempt to pass me in the carousel at Nelson Ledges
and literally drove over my right rear tire launching himself over me, ripping
off his rear bodywork when it caught my front shock tower. After I cooled down
at the worker's station, he said " I guess you didn't see me"? I responded that
"most people don't attempt passes during practice in the Carousel" etc.....That
afternoon, I had the priviledge of watching him take out the leading SRF as it
attempted to lap the fool who hit me etc........Another driver who somehow passed
his driver's school...Vee's & SRF's have NO business being on the track together.

Mark

[budawe]

I'm sre many of us have similar stories. A BOD member asked that the Vee community put something together as a suggestion to resolve this problem. Any ideas besides an outright ban of this class combination?

[SteveLevin]

I feel this is much more of a driver issue that a physical one. You have to be aware of what's going on around you.

As someone mentioned, CalClub mixes FF/F5/SRF/FV as a normal group. Sometimes the FV's will do a split, but at Cal Speedway in January, we didn't, and us slower SRF guys found ourselves in a battle in and amongst the fastest FV's relative positions must have changed 5 or 6 times in 18 laps.

Yet it all worked out because everyone was aware of what was going on, where people were, and played nice.

Fix the problem, not the symptom.

Steve

[Daryl DeArman]

I've to agree with Steve.

Since my sprint karting and roundy-round racing more than 15 years ago I have always had to share the track with cars in other classes (except one race in the Toyota Celebrity/Pro celicas). Certain groupings make more sense than others. However, the bottom line is that as a FV racer, there are FV drivers' I would prefer to not share the track with and FA drivers' I would be okay with.

I'm not placing blame on Brian or the SRF driver, nor am I saying that Ted's recent incident with the SR was either one of their fault.

Contact seems to be more of an attitude and awareness issue, rather than a visibility one.

If either/both is/are not aware of their surroundings or feels some sort of entitlement to real estate that someone else is currently occupying, we have a problem. IMO there isn't such a thing as a "no-passing zone" on a hot race track if you don't leave the racing surface, or cause the other person to do so. It is a race track, not a parade route.

Race hard, race safe.

[dc]

But by that logic, then we should all be racing in one big run grouping with IT and GT1 cars. What exactly distinguishes the separation in race groups?

Aren't there inherently different driving styles and attitudes in different "styles" of race cars?


I believe a group full of FFs or FVs will have different driving/racing styles and worries than a group full of Spec Miatas or SRFs.

[Daryl DeArman]

I believe a group full of FFs or FVs will have different driving/racing styles and worries than a group full of Spec Miatas or SRFs.

What are you trying to say Doug?

So....Would you rather be in a run group full of like cars where everybody else has a very different awareness level and attitude OR would you rather be the only car of your type sharing the track with keenly aware, like-minded individuals? Not that either option is a likely solution---it illustrates that it is the driver not the car that creates the issue.

I've raced with some FV guys who think because they are going "slow" and the "cars are cheap" that nobody can seriously get hurt (physically or financially) and drive accordingly. I raced against people who think because they have fenders they are invincible. I've also raced against plenty of open and closed wheel people who have been very well "behaved".

[dc]

I absolutely agree that the driver behind the wheel is the biggest reason for on-track problems, but admittedly, some race groups are more prone to mishaps than others. Putting those classes in with other cars that are not only not similar in weight or driver protection, but smaller and more easily upset in the event of contact, increases the dangers drastically for the smaller open wheel car, regardless of the aggressiveness of the FV driver.

If you HAD to be in an on-track wheel-to-wheel contact with another car, and your choice is to pick between another FV or a car with full fenders, a 500 pound weight handicap and a driver that knows that in an on-track arm wrestle will win every time, which do you pick? It's just physics. Even if every SRF driver on the planetgraciously gave you 5 feet of room in every corner, the Hot Wheels car vs. bowling ball science experiment isn't something I want to participate in.



I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

[Daryl DeArman]

If you HAD to be in an on-track wheel-to-wheel contact with another car, and your choice is to pick between another FV or a car with full fenders, a 500 pound weight handicap and a driver that knows that in an on-track arm wrestle will win every time, which do you pick?

You mean I get to chose between getting my **** whacked with a sledge hammer or clamped in a vice?

I understand your point. Personally, I'd rather avoid either....if that truly isn't an option I'd rather go wheel to wheel with a fendered car as I'll likely get punted, instead of end up on my head.

[Bruce]

I have an on-board video of the National at Fontana and there were incidents where FV's were driven off the track by SRF's. They seem to not know they were in the middle of a group of vee's or if a vee was next to them. In each instant the vee driver was forced to take evasive action so as to avoid contact.
I must also mention there were some who were not aware they were in the middle of the lead pack of Vee's, splitting them up.
My perspective was not the same as Steve's.

[SteveLevin]

It would certainly be interesting to see that video, since I am fairly sure I play a large part in it.

I was very aware the Vee's were the lead pack but at the same time three SRF's were within a couple seconds of each other and while we weren't the leaders, still, we were racing as well.

edit: I just went back and watched my video...for sure ahead of me there was one incident where the SRF looked to be in the wrong, but again, I'm not convinced that's a "can't see" and not a "didn't look" kind of thing.

And our races were certainly disrupted by the Vee's at times as well... which is just part of the whole racing thing in mixed groups.

Steve

[budawe]

Bruce is right about Fontana. I got punted off while leading the vee race and the driver claimed to not have seen me. I told him that I was slightly ahead and was surprised he hit me. He strongly claimed I hadn't been in front. I then asked him, "did you see me or not? If you didn't see me, how did you know I wasn't in front of you?" His response was if I had been in front he would have seen me. I showed him the tire donut on the front fender of his car and left it at that.

There's a big difference in all drivers when comparing the front to back of the fields. When a group of SRF or FF any leaders come through, they grasp the situational conditions very well and know where the slower cars are and just move through. The same can't be said for the other end of the field in any class, vee included. I spent several turns behind the SRF at Fontana trying to get by and I really don't think he had a clue. The fornt runners came through cleanly and I enjoyed watching them try to keep up with very loose cars. It was fun, they waved back after I pointed and things were cool; cool except for the relocated temporary curbing and cones left behind. I now those cars are a challenge to drive, I see all the rocks and dirt from all the trying.

[Bruce]

Steve,

I will be at the Sears Double Regional on Labor Day Weekend. Find where the Vee's are and ask for me.

Bruce