And the San Fran Region anarchy returned. If you're looking for a happy ending, don't go here:
http://formulamazdaforum.yuku.com/topic/3059/t/Postcards-from-the-Back-You-F-ing-Kidding-me.html
It got ugly
And the San Fran Region anarchy returned. If you're looking for a happy ending, don't go here:
http://formulamazdaforum.yuku.com/topic/3059/t/Postcards-from-the-Back-You-F-ing-Kidding-me.html
Ted/FM # 13
Shoe String Racing
On a Wing & a Prayer
Umm, Like, WOW!
Down in the south we have mostly grey squirrels, what type are native to that desert type environment you show in the pics?
(Man that place sure looks different for the month or so there is green grass!)
The General showed real patience w/ the beginer in the Pro FM; for a sec there I thought there was gonna be a puntin'.
Was the first Pro FM to go around who I think it was?
Something w/ the initials PTJR??
GC
glen,
I think I found a race group that fits my style!
No Glen..
No PTJR,his entries are no longer accepted by SF Region.
I want to thank Ted Idlof for his outstanding racereport as his attached Videos help me recall what was going on while I was all caught up in keeping my car in one piece!
The only Pro Mazda in the race was Dr. Frank McCormick who started 2nd. OA. He was bumped from the rear at the start and it bent his rear wing out of whack. He was able to continue and finished 3rd. OA.
I started 3rd. but was down to 7th. at the end of the first lap,partly by choice as I told Sean Kelly -FE #32- that he could have the "line" in turn #1 & #2 as he had 2 more FE's right behind him and I didn't want to get in the middle of that scrum!
Glad I did as after the carnage and 2 safety Car sessions I was back up to 2nd. OA!
A gearbox issue put me out on lap #8 while running right behind Edd Ozards FA.
I was surprised to read about the FM's having lost speed in Sunday mornings Qualifying session?
It was already 93 degrees and my Old hard compound Radial tires liked the conditions as I was able to beat a 6 year old FS Qualifying session Lap record. Guess one tire's slip can be anothers tire's Grip?
Well when we get to Sears Point next month I hope cooler Heads and cooler Weather are both in abundance?
Last edited by D.T. Benner; 08.11.09 at 12:34 AM.
D.T. was that you who looked like they were getting bump drafted by the Sports Racer at the start in the 'general video'.
Drive to survive?
Yea Joe,that was me. He was the only CSR in the race but just HAD to be at the front. He later spun out in front of me! Like an FC my car is a "Momentum" car that depends more on good Aero more than great acceleration. With only 4 gears if I am in a bad RPM range at the start I'm toast.
I can't afford the "Big One" and have learned that most of the DoDo happends at the start. I look at the Qualifying sheet and can often figure out what to expect at the start.
I figure if I can run laps faster than those behind me I should be able to run them down during the race?
There will be a Drivers Meeting at Infineon in Sept. Bill Dormandy and I are taking the lead on, and will be conducting the meetings until the stupidity stops.
Glenn, Ground squirrels and rabbits are native to the area, haven't seen one at the track yet. I have seen pheasants at the track and now pronghorn antelope are moving into the area.
Your car sure looks a lot nicer now than it did at CMP last year with the engine cover mold on it.
Greg, "Until the stupidity ends" For all of us, I hope it's soon. Maybe if we can run some non- contact races, we will get a better schedule. Sears doesn't look any better than T-hill was.
Ugly seems like an understatement for what was visible on the in-car, and trackside photos!!!
Thunderhill looks like an awesome track to drive from the in-car footage though. Is it as fun as it looks? Is the elevation change, and are the blind apexes as striking in person as they appear on video. Also looks like it may be a place that's easy to overdrive the car, could this be contributing to the carnage. Just curious.
Dave
Yes, it's as fun as it looks. Probably more so.
Elevation and blind apexes are awesome(especially at night).
Carnage is caused by STUPID drivers. Where the DSR thought he was gonna pass Ted,I have no idea. Just dumb. And then to say Ted was at fault, boggles the mind.
IMHO
Even more fun than..
It looks!We were concerend that we could loose Laguna Seca and/or Sears Point and wanted to have a place to race.
The layout of the track was thought out to have many of the best features of both SP and LS without all the Concrete Walls.
The wrecks you see in Group 2 are often caused by drivers with the wrong attitudelike "I can win this on the First Lap!"
or "I'll win or crash trying to do so"
I have been Regional Club racing for 25 years and I'm sad to see this kind of thing happening as I feel that kind of attitude should be reserved for Pro Racing where it's more common.
Fred and D.T.
Can't argue with the stupidity factor. During the first session of the test day, at the last race I did, I had the right rear corner taken off by the nose of a sports racer as I went by on the straight, after showing myself in his mirror the whole previous straight. My son then heard him tell his crew in the pits that he never saw me, after he was black flagged for the contact. Unbelievable!
Dave
That track looks awesome!
Wasn't there, don't know what the sports racer saw or was thinking, don't know if he was front tires ablaze from 40' back or not.
I Do bet that he didn't expect Ted to do what he did, and I bet that Ted didn't turn in expecting him to be there
Glad nobody was hurt.
I sure as hell hope he expected Ted to turn in as I don't think Ted is dumb enough to send himself flying off the track by NOT turning in.
Rookie driver with no brain and then does not think he did anything wrong. TAKE HIS LICENSE AWAY!
And I think the guy got "Driver of the weekend"
Unbelievable
For those who've never raced at Thunderhill, it is a hoot and a half to drive, and mostly a very safe place to push the envelope. Come on out and play! We're mostly very nice folks who enjoy competition and evening BBQ's.
Anyone who races in this Group is invited to join Bill and I in helping overcome stupidity. The more the merrier and we could really use the help.
It is not our intent to run a post-mortem in each Drivers Meeting, nor is it our intent to call out those who transgress. We are going to stress heads-up driving and those who drive with their heads-up-their-a$$es will be counselled privately by either Bill and I or a Steward.
We also intend to help the Stewards take a more proactive role in responding to Protests, instead of actively trying to deny or prevent them. I do not believe anyone involved in the 4 separate incidents at Thunderhill got anything more than a chat with the Stewards. Yup, pretty embarassing to have 4 incidents and a bunch of cars in the Impound boneyard. All appeared to be preventable from what I can see in the videos.
Nice chats will not change behaviors. Points and probation will probably get your attention.
See you at the Point. It may be the last track sessions for me for a while, we found a ginormous bone spur in my shoulder socket that will require surgery after the Sears weekend. It feels SOOOOOO good when the shoulder harness clamps down on the HANS.
Thill
I quit running in group SCCA and sold my DSR after I got really tired of the really foolish driving I consistently saw in Group 2. Perhaps we should have a feeder system, spend a while running in a slower class before you are approved to buy something like a DSR, FB, FA, FM, etc (they are just not starter cars). It is done in many groups and would make the racing safer. I have never found talking to my teenagers or teenage type adults to help much. They need time to learn for themselves, so good luck with that one Greg, I don't think it will help. You are going to need to impose penalties.
THill is great fun, running up over the hill and sliding down the back side towards the berm, turn 9? is where you make up all kinds of time if you will put it out there.
I am hoping to have a car new soon, so see you at the track.
John Howarth
We miss seeing you and Stephanie John! I know how you feel. I stopped racing at Laguna because stupid driving made it the most expensive laps on the planet. I could play Pebble Beach, weekend at the Lodge, and pay less per shot that I was paying for green flag minutes!!!!!!!!!!!
Well.....I am sure he expected Ted to turn in AT SOME POINT.Originally Posted by Fred Michael
Greg, Darrell, the new car is nearly ready so I hope to be at the point. Failing that Laguna. Worst case..dunno. But the comeback is imminent so there'll be more cars soon with saner drivers. Well, saner on the track at least!
John what car are you getting? And don't tell me your going SM!
See ya all at the track soon I hope.
Firman F1000
Ya'll should be running Spec Racers. We didn't have nary a FCY in our race
Steve
Oh Steve you left yourself open for really really ripe comments with that one.
Thomas, I can't hardly wait for the rematch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Infineon, YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Laguna NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Greg
I hope you can make some progress. I feel lucky to come out of that weekend with only a slight bump from behind.
Our officials need to be equipped to better analyze videos. In my past experience they are barely able to watch it in real time much less slow it down and see what really happened. Ted has a video and it's still his fault. When I ended up upside down with a pass attempt like that I was told by the officials "maybe i should of left a car with on the inside incase anyone was there" then called it a racing incident. By doing nothing the officials give the green light for it to continue.
The guy who hit Ted is over his head in the car. I have past experience with him he is unaware of whats around him. He Went straight from go karts to DSR. Group 2 is not a starter class.
If there is anyway I can help Greg let me know. See you at infineon
Scott
The nature of turn 9 dictates that if he did not turn in when he did then he would have been 4 wheels off at high speed at the exit.
Any driver trying to pass there SHOULD know that.
Be thankful that wasn't someplace like the Kink at Road America....
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
It was merely my impression from the video that Ted saw he was likely going to catch the car in front of him at an inopportune point. Looks like he decided to check up a bit more prior to entering T9 as to get a good run through and out of 9. You know, maturity, patience, race craft. However, in doing so, there appears to be a moment or two of uncertainty. That uncertainty could look like opportunity to the car behind. Concentrating more on getting the corner perfect and the race ahead may have caused him to forget about the car behind or being the leading car felt he had the right to a part of the track occupied by somebody else.
The SR had 2 wheels in the dirt prior to making contact with Ted. Was he forced off to avoid contact or did he just completely lose it under braking????? That is why the other video (if there is one) could certainly tell the other side of the story.
Otherwise all we are doing is guessing what each one was or wasn't thinking...
LOL, you guys are killing me......
it ain't that complicated.
Well, I can tell you what I was thinking; exactly what I put in my race report; the DSR had nothing on me for lap times all weekend including the 9 laps of the race, so why should he think he had a legitimate shot at a pass there? When I checked on him in the brake zone for T-9 he was still visible (nowhere close to getting alongside). Here's one more thing I was thinking: I assumed he was a legitimate or rather experienced racer (no orange placard) and therefore, all he was doing was showing himself in my left mirror, letting me know he was coming and would pass in the 9-10 straight which happens to be "THE ONLY LEGITIMATE PASSING ZONE" on the west side of the track. No one except FA's or someone desperate but still going 5-10 seconds quicker can pass going into 9.
And no, I wasn't checking up or anything crafty for the FM ahead, I was just running my normal speed and normal line. And I don't understand the problem with drawing the obvious conclusion from the video that so many others have; you can see how wide angle the video is and the CSR pass demonstrated how visible a passing car is. Incidentally that was not a point by; he got there right at turn in and forced me to go straigth and apex later and slower.
But here's the bottom line; the driver behind this incident let me know he saw the incident and would fill out a witness sheet in support of me, but I waved him off thinking I wasn't about to stay another 2 hours to show the SOM the video.
I don't know where the DSR got his license, but he said that was his first SCCA race and one rumor has it he pretty much has most of his experience in karts. And if I hadn't been complimented by many in our Group 2 on my car control and position awareness over the past 5 years, I might have doubts. But since no one has had an issue with me before this newcomer came along, I'll stand on my history, thank you.
Ted/FM # 13
Shoe String Racing
On a Wing & a Prayer
You were entirely in the right Ted. Anyone who has driven that corner should know that could never work. I would trust you around me on the track anytime.
Glad to see you have the respect and support of your fellow racers up there. Perhaps the new guy will earn his too. Other than this contact, looks like he is off to a great start.
Jumping in Late
Sorry to have found this thread late, but here' my 2 cents worth.
Having tossed the car off in qualifying at T10 and high siding the car on the T11 berm, my humblest apologies to my fellow Gr 2 drivers for denying you the last 3-4 minutes on that oily track. Not having found anything "wrong" with the car, I started the race only to find some not so minor adjustments had be made to my front toe in the process. So I was able to drive mid-pack and observe the carnage from a relatively safe view point.
I had a discussion with one of our Steward when I ran into him (sorry, bad pun for a Gr 2 driver) at Sears Point last week for the open IRL test day. My suggestion to him is this:
If a driver is found guilty of causing contact, passing under yellows or any other ungraceful acts while running in Gr 2, that driver is suspended for at least one race weekend. (Maybe it should be one race weekend for each corner taken off of the cars involved) Now the club certainly doesn't want to loose the entry fee, so a fine equal to the entry(s) is imposed as well. You see, there are drivers not only in Gr 2, but all the other classes that consider crash damage as part of the "cost of racing". What none of us want to loose is TRACK and RACE TIME! Loosing time is near and dear to all of us, particularly those of us that have been at this a while. Perhaps this will drive the point home.
Returning to my discussion with the Steward. He said that he would fight me "tooth and nail" on that one. Why? Because as a Steward he can impose a fine, DQ, etc. on site and be done with it. Imposing a fine goes to committee and the issue cannot be resolved at the track I have not checked the GCR on that one, but will be.
Funny comment coming from the same guy that purposely blocked me multiple times during a race when he was the only competitor in his class, and then was caught bragging about it to his crew guy after the race was over.Yea Joe,that was me. He was the only CSR in the race but just HAD to be at the front. ?
Your (operating?) steward may have been trying to tell you that the Chief Steward has a more limited set of penalties available to him/her than does the SOM.
In particular, sitting someone down for a weekend (i.e. suspending them) can only be done by the SOM. So, the Chief Steward (or operating steward) would have to file an RFA or another driver protest the offender in order for this to happen.
Also, even the SOM can impose a fine of only $250, which won't buy a corner for many cars.
The SOM's decision can be appealed.
More detail:
From 5.12.2.C Powers of the Chief Steward:
The Chief Steward may:
1. Disqualify a driver or an ineligible car.
2. Remove technical inspection stickers.
3. Disallow qualifying times.
...
7. Impose a fine of up to $100.
8. Prevent an ineligible car from competing.
9. Reprimand.
10. Impose time, lap, event points, or position penalty.
From 7.2 Range of Penalties (available to the SOM):
The penalties in increasing order of severity are:
A. Fine ($1-$99)
B. Reprimand
...
C. Loss of event points
D. Fine ($100-$249)
E. Fine ($250)
...
F. Probation of competition privileges
...
Probation may be for up to six (6) months, except that up to ten (10)
months may be imposed between September 1st and September
30th, and nine (9) months may be imposed on or after October 1st,
or a specified number of SCCA event days.
...
G. Time, Lap, or Position
...
H. Disqualification from competition
...
I. Suspension of competition privileges
Suspension of SCCA licensed privileges may be imposed for up to
twelve (12) months.
...
J. Loss of accrued points
...
K. Expulsion from SCCA
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Hi John: Our biggest obstacle (in this Region) is that our Stewards do not like to process protests, so they expend a lot of effort to get the issue resolved in Impound. Even when there is a well founded protest it occasionally is denied by the SOM's. I'm not sure but it's pretty hard to file an appeal if the protest is denied, I think you'd have to file a second ptotest agains the SOM's.
Without the support of the Stewards up to and including the Chief Steward at each event we're left to bashing each other on forums, which never realy solves the problem.
I had an interesting discussion yesterday about the definition of a "racing incident". Neither of us can come up with anything except that if your corner comes off, or a shock collapses, gerbox detonates, etc. and you spin in front of a pack of cars and cause a clusterfarkle, that MIGHT be a racing incident. But contact between 2 fully functional cars with fully functional qualified drivers should never be considered a "racing incident". Somebody did/didn't do something correctly.
So we're going to keep hacking away at the problem drivers...and Stewards.
I was not at the event, so obviously I cannot and will not comment on the specifics of this incident.
However, if you file a timely protest, the SOM must hear it. They can uphold it or not uphold (deny) it, but they must hear it.
If the SOM does not uphold a protest, the named parties may appeal their decision. A second protest is not required.
You can read the GCR from cover to cover, and you won't find the words (or concept) 'racing incident' or 'incidental contact'. Component failures might get a soft pass, but a behavior failure should not.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
One additional comment.
Again, this is not a comment on the particular incident, but rather on the general SCCA process.
Consider the following scenario. A and B have contact while on track. At the end of the session, A speaks to the operating steward or Chief Steward, and says that he wants to protest B. The steward says that he will take of the incident by penalizing B, and that A does not need to protest.
Be very aware that A faces a trade-off in this situation. If he chooses not to protest, and to let the steward deal with the incident, he avoids the time and effort and stress of filing a protest.
However, if the steward takes an action which does not satisfy A, or if B protests the steward's action and the SOM overturn it, A has no standing in the matter. He (A) cannot protest or appeal, since the time limit for a protest has expired and he is not a named party to any CSA/RFA/protest that happened.
So, if A is aggrieved, and wants to maintain his rights, his only option is to file a timely protest against B. By doing this, he becomes a named party, acquires standing, and can appeal any SOM decision.
Please understand that I am not advocating scattershot protests. However, the only way that you can preserve your rights following an incident is by filing a timely protest.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
One year ago.....is it any different now?
Well, here’s a reminder of what the mindset was exactly one year ago.
http://formulamazdaforum.yuku.com/to...st-Hurrah.html
Only this time, we don’t have PT2 to kick around, so maybe Mike Smith was right; the problem is more widespread than just one or 2 individuals or groups. Seems to me, after last year’s come to jesus meeting, the 1st race (with over 50 cars on grid) was yellow free from green to checkers.
And concerning Greg’s issue: the stewards’ reluctance to roll up their sleeves and clean things up, recall that the Board, not the stewards, essentially banned PT2 from the Region after several incidents that many of the drivers felt were not sufficiently punished. The Board did so administratively, by not accepting his registration, therefore legally overriding the stewards’ jurisdiction. Like it or not, this was applauded by many as drivers policing themselves. This route takes time and for that reason is simply never going to be a vigilante mob lynching.
Ted/FM # 13
Shoe String Racing
On a Wing & a Prayer
Thanks John. I need to spend some time in that section of the GCR. Not having to use it has been very nice indeed. But during 3 years as a Chief Scrutineer, I've seen far too many actions actively discouraged by the Tech Stewards to save the extra work that the protest requires.
Well, if it's any consolation....
the SFR Group 2 looks like perfect Boy Scouts compared to today's IRL opening lap clustphuque in T-2.
I trust one of you Boy Scouts will post video of the Memorial Day infineon race.
Ted/FM # 13
Shoe String Racing
On a Wing & a Prayer
Yeah, and they're getting paid to crash each other out of the race. We can't even use that lame excuse.
What you did not see on TV.
At the IRL race weekend was a race for the New Jim Russel School F-3 like Lolas. 14 cars took the green and They had a 7 Car Wreck in turn 2 at the start!
Guess part of the school teaching is how to win (or Crash) on the First Lap?
Maybe they all took a course in Pelosinomics: Crash damage - trophy value = ($15,490)
That's $15,500 less the $10 trophy for the math challenged. But what the hell, it's someone else's money right?
Obamanomics actually sounds better, but Doug is so touchy about bashing the Prez...
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