It's a long-term thing.
I do agree that if one is committed to FF-style racing over the course of three to five years at least, then this conversion starts to make more economic sense.
The trick is to ensure that engine rebuild costs are greatly reduced.
It'll be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
Using the word "investment" on this forum is comical. These aren't classic muscle cars. Very few of us own something that is actually holding value well, or even increasing. Outside of spec cars and vintage cars, calling a race car an investment is just plain silly.
I think we can look at FC to see what the engine conversions mean for costs, participation and resale value. While the Zetec transition has been frustratingly less than smooth, you can just go down the list of Pinto hardcore who have spent a lot more than $12,000 to convert their cars to Zetec power to know that if this option becomes available for FF, that it is more than feasable.
Would I like the costs to be less? Yes. I'd also like to race for free, so cost are always going to be an issue, no matter what class I decide to race in.
Does it worry me that the cost is more than I paid for my roller? Yes. But the concern was greater knowing that a decent Kent was aproaching those numbers, and would soon require constant babysitting and rebuilding to remain competitive. And that doesn't even begin to address the sourcing and availability issues with the Kent.
This conversion won't be for everyone—just like the Zetec is not for FC. But for a good chunk of the FF population who is worried about engine and rebuild costs long-term, this is certainly a very viable option. I'm thrilled it is being considered.
True, no one is running a pinto anymore in FC.Originally Posted by Greg Mercurio
Which is exactly the same thing that happens when you put a $16k engine in. Like I said in post #2, I know a FF competitor who spent $16k on his engine last year for the runoffs and he thought it was going soft by June of this year. He is also in the process of leaving the class. FF engine costs (purchase and operation) are higher than FV, FC(zetec), FE, FM, and FB. How can that be good for long term growth?Gee, what a great idea, spend $12K on a $12k race car to make it a $12K race car. And THAT is supposed to revitalize the class???? Does anyone understand sunk cost?
Also, I can see your point because a VD with a zetec is worth exactly the same as a VD with a good pinto.
Your idea is that someone subsidizes the class out of their own pocket? This isn't FE. There is no money to be made in building SCCA race cars. There isn't much to be made in this for anyone from what I have seen.If someone truly wanted to revitalize the class, they'd put a little risk capital of their own into the project, supply engines and reconfiguration kits at cost or below cost and sell the rebuilds and parts to recaitalize.
I don't know all of the details yet, but I hope to find out more this weekend, then I will be sending my letter in.
The point may be that you will have a choice after 5 years of racing. Rebuild or buy new. A new engine from Honda now is $ 2500.00 complete.
SteveO
When buying a new car, which one do you want? There are still Pintos out there competing every weekend with Zetecs.
I'm wondering, how many of you guys have kept accurate records of expenses over the last few years. Like, say, over a 3-5 year timeframe? How much have you spent on engine purchases, parts, rebuilds, shipping and maintenance of the Kent?
I was actually being sarcastic, a zetec VD is worth a good bit more than an equivalent pinto VD. The zetec has also depressed used engine prices for the guys who don't convert.
And the Zetec isn't even being produced anymore.
you guys should work for the CIA. Seems Gary and i are the only ones who can keep a secret. I'm absolutely in on the motor deal. it's the best thing to happen to this class in a long time. a 6 year run on manufacturing and 15 years manufacturing parts. and throw in the hello kitty oil cap...how can you resist? now lets talk about aluminum calipers....ric
hold that thought. on my way to airport for a small gathering of old friends in Wisconsin
And the same goes for every builder out there - when a builder gets a head (that's where the primary differences are) that flows significantly better than the others, he would be foolish to send it to a backmarker instead of a customer who is regularly at the pointy end of the grid.
Don't try to lay this practice soley on Sandy's lap.
At the moment, no one is building new FFs (with maybe one or two exceptions) because of the lack of interest in the class from potential new blood. A huge part of that lack of interest is the motor expense, and the amount of work needed to keep one alive.
It is just possible that the allowance for a new, modern motor will overcome that resistance, and the demand for new cars will rise once again.
Even if that doesn't happen, we really haven't lost anything, except for the work and $$ involved in keeping the Kent alive year after year.
I think that return on investment ( read sinkhole/moneypit/etc.) is a factor in choosing a racecar. Many of us have said that we "Just want to race and have fun." The nanosecond when you decide to open the gearbox to change ratios suggests that you want a competitive advantage. Honda is a competetive company, with major resources and if they step up to provide contigency money for local Regionals, the concept will work. The Fit is Go !
The only way a new Fit motor is $2500 is if HPD is subsidizing it thru some sort of racer parts program like those offered by Mazda or Toyota. I have checked w/ some direct Honda sources I have and that is below current dealer cost.
The short block is currently in the neighborhood of $1900 and the head assembly $1700 if you ordered one today and were able to buy at dealer cost. MSRP is approx. $3900 & $2500 respectfully for a grand total of $6400 MSRP.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc.
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
I am all for it. Slightly less power than a "National Motor" would be a step up for a lot of us. I always used a homebuilt "Regional" motor. The idea of consistent good power that will last a long time is very appealing. I'd rather spend the rebuild money on entry fees to improve my driving. I feel racing is more fun than rebuilding motors.
I would assume that most folks would wait until they needed a $6,000 rebuild on their Kent before doing the conversion, so the actual additional cost is only $6,000.
If the Fit engine lasts just twice as long as a Kent, it would require only a single "cycle" of the Kent to break even on expenses. After that, assuming the $2500 cost (assuming you just buy a new motor rather than a rebuild), the Fit continues to cost signifiantly less money.
Steve
Fit engine on Sumitomos that last seasons..........now it's about setup/gearing. I know that my comments border on spec class promotion, but wasn't parity the foundation of FF when it was formed?
It sounds like an interesting proposal. As an FV driver the past 13 yrs ( incl. FST ),
I would be interested in FF if this engine was adopted. My future plans was the
conversion back to FST once my area had more to race against, but with this motor,
I would consider the FF's.....
Thanks!
Mark
I haven't seen the dyno graphs and only know what I got out of a discussion with QS.
If it's down a couple HP. it will probably not make a difference.
On a carbed motor the tuning (timing, a/f, etc.) are all a compromise from the lowest barometric pressures to the highest, from the lowest temps to the highest and across the full load range and throttle position. (even the fuel type and age.)
An ECM motor is tuned dynamically to adjust on the fly for all of the parameters. It even takes in to account reliabilty issues by retuning when the engine is getting too hot or spark knock.
Plugs will last longer, ignitions systems are better, and the upper end will stay far cleaner. This is a no brainer from a reliabilty and probably even a performance stand point. As pointed out, the cost when amortized is lower.
Due to current manufacturing held tolerances and a common fuel and timing map and program in the ECU, the differences between motor HP will be VERY little.
The ECU gives you better data acquisition capability and you won't ever have to adjust or replace your throttle linkage again (it's a couple wires).
A real no brainer....
Jim
A year ago I wouldn't have cared, but after just ventilating my engine I'm very interested. I've just started my search, but where are all these "abundant" Fiesta blocks? Everything I've seen ends up near $1300 after prep. Just for the block! Since it also destroyed the trans. case & adapter, I'm looking at $6000-7500 to get a Club Ford back on track.
It seems that carefully written rules could minimize "technology creep" and cost escalation. NO modifications to the castings, manifolds, pistons,etc. Specify where material can be removed for balancing, stock clutches (as was the norm at some point in the past), tight blueprinting tolerances, etc.
It would be nice to know the true cost of a complete Fit engine.
Steve
sounds like a step forward, finally!
This concept sounds good to me if it is opened to the point of anyone being able to buy the parts and do their own rebuilds etc.
My main gripe with FE is the single-source requirement for the whole car. This concept eliminates that problem and provides us low-buck racers an avenue for modern engines that are more reliable and economical.
Another advantage is that it does not require a 'spec' chassis, so conceivably any existing car could use it, if they wanted to go thru the initial conversion cost. Maybe Neil Porter will come up with a conversion kit for the older Crossle Club Fords (30,32,35,40,45)?
As a slight hijack, earlier this spring I was talking with a Honda wrench who races CRXes about putting a d16 sohc non-vetec in an old FC chassis and running in FS (vtec would move it to FA). The major problem was getting an adapter to use the LD200 trans. Who would I ask to see if the HPD Hewland adapter would work for those engines. Could Scotty over at Taylor help with that part of the project?
Fuel, too.
And, as the Honda ECU is probably mapped for partial ethanol fuel, running pump gas looks more likely. That saves some dough, too.
Due to current manufacturing held tolerances and a common fuel and timing map and program in the ECU, the differences between motor HP will be VERY little.
A real no brainer....
Jim
I am only quoting the proposals contained in the proposal to SCCA. HPD apparently has committed to sell this engine to any of us for 2,500.00. When new Zetec crate motors were readily available you could buy one of those for less than $ 2,000.00. In fact you could probably go on ebay now and get one for less than that.
BTW, there is nothing in this proposal that precludes someone going to a junk yard, purchasing a used fit engine, rebuild it and then buy the kit for your own installation.
SteveO
For the most part I agree. Rule changes are expensive, even those designed to save money.
However, done correctly, the Honda motor here or the F600 motor there won't cost the front runners any extra money if the new package is NOT the hot ticket. Pretty simple really. Nothing changed for the front of the grid, the mid pack and back guys can decide which makes more financial sense to them.
You should know very well this isn't about increasing the value of the car. It is about making it more cost effective to race in the long run. Just about everything we do to our race cars is a sunk cost. How come most of the cars sitting in garages are sitting? Is it because of the initial cost of the car or the cost to race it?
Yep. And due to the fact that it is a common map for everyone, buying exotic fuels will probably do little, since you can't optimize the map to the fuel.
IMO, I would rather see a sealed factory engine than an open market place with race-prepped (but stock) engines. If somebody would lock in the $2500 price for X number of years .... this would be a no-brainer for those interested in going FF type racing.
Do some basic electronic eligibility testing, maybe you pic your ECU from a hat ..... and the concept would be very viable.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Idea sounds great. Couple of points:
- Problemchhild identifies another $3K to $5K of cost if the engines are not sealed. The time spent blueprinting will be significant.
- Who says this production engine will last 5 years in a race car? Is this an assumption or a fact? Experience indicates that production engines put into race cars can show up design issues not apparent during normal road use. Just a thought.
BB2
BB2
Assuming that there are no "cheater" ECU's which would be easy to check,.. there will be no differences. Unlike a carb and its metering devices which is analog, an ECU is digital, every bit and location is the same as every other bit on other ECU's. You would get more performance changes by optimizing sensors like MAF, temp, etc. But all ECU's will react the same.
I hate to say this, but..
As we SRFers know, one can now buy designer fuel that is optimized to a specific engine and its ECU map.
That said, apparently SCCA is coming out with new fuel regs that could, maybe, possibly and finally detect designer fuels -- based on performance parameters and not specific formulations -- and boot them out. (That's a whole 'nuther thread!)
It is certainly possible that it wouldn't hold up as well as expected, but I would be very surprised if that were the case. As with any new application they may find a few weak areas, but not likely, especially with fly by wire and ECU.
We have several SU NASA cars runing and some spec Miatas with LS-1/7 and Miata 1600's with similar rules packages. They seem to do race after race for multiple years and great reliability. Far more than one would expect with an old Ford.
BTW (Eric ?)... With the ECU and injectors I suspect a alternator will be required? Did I miss this?
Certainly possible, but they can't change the timing and a/f ratios. So the fuel will have to have similar flame fronts, octane, and specific gravity. I suspect the gains if any, may not be worth the price.
If in fact the SCCA is coming up with tests that would allow pump fuel, I doubt that any aftermarket fuel will accomplish much of anything in this mapped low compression engine. There will certainly be claims and people that will use it, but in our dyno tests here in similar applications, I think it will be mostly hype.
Another perspective
I don't have a dog in this fight, not yet anyway. And that's my point. I raced FF on the
West Coast at a time when 60 cars might show up for a regional and you really had to qualify to make the race. (At the last Cal Club regional there were exactly 4 FFs.)
In recent times I've seriously pondered getting back into the class on relatively low-key basis. What has stopped me? The current engine cost, both as to the initial purchase price and what it takes to maintain it. How many of you choked on your Wheaties when Art Smith offered his killer Loyning for $12K? And $6K for a rebuild? That's 50% more than I paid for my last FF, which came with a boatload of spares. Of course times have changed and everything costs more. But that's downright scary. And what if you grenade one, which is certainly still a possibility. I did that once. Not only was the block and all its internals destroyed, but so were the the adapter, the input shaft and and the gearbox case.
I was very close to pulling the string on Doug Carter's Swift. And then I realized why he was selling. I've also spoken with a few people who have cars just sitting in their garages. Why? Their answers are universally the same: the engine.
I don't see a downside to this proposal. Parity apparently won't be an issue. And here you have the performance division of a major automotive company willingly getting involved. What did Ford ever do for us during the last 40 years? Oh yeah, when the local dealer figured out there was a demand for all those gaskets sets gathering dust on the shelf, he promptly doubled the price.
Okay, so we'll never get back to the monster fields of yore (except this weekend.) But I can see this proposal as a painless way to give the class a chance of rebirth.
GaryJ
Again, I hate to say this, BUT...
Fact is, while I don't know about the Honda 1.5, designer fuels are making a difference in the SRF's mapped, low compression engine. Ask just about anyone who ran at the pointy end at this year's June Sprints if designer fuel wasn't worth the price.
Let's hope the Club gets it right this time when it comes to eliminating designer fuels.
I've seen an SRF on the rocket fuel just walk away from one that was running pump gas. The pump gas car couldn't keep up even with the draft and it wasn't due to a tired engine.
This probably isn't the thread for it, but if one SRF "walked" away out of a draft using an exotic fuel (and they were comparable in every other way) then something is NOT comparable in every other way. We have seen the edge on the dyno testing of exotic fuels in engines and it's not "walk away power".
And a quick search on eBay showed no less than 10 L15A7 engines pulled from wrecked Fits, and none of them more than $995.
Something else to consider, is that the Fit kit is ALL NEW PARTS—no 35 year old blocks, distributors, reconditioned carbs and water pumps...
Oh, and I think Art's original asking price was north of $14,000.
I ran the Sprints in both FE and SRF this year using non-exotic fuels in both and I figure exotic fuels give you about 1.5-2 seconds a lap at Road America in SRF. I won FE, but had no chance in SRF because we ran pump gas.
No Sealed Engines
Its not a sealed class right now, don't do it with the Fit either or u will just have a special few out there.........will eliminate someone shoving one in a chassis and filling in the field as ford was meant to be....plus u can always get a top engine and refresh it yourself for a couple hundred and get thru many years as some have done in the past....seal it in an almost extinct (in the US) form of racing and it may not work.....leave it open as now and I might even shove one in the Tatuus for a few grand
The stock alternator is part of the package
SteveO
Having said my piece, I will leave you with this:
Call Huffaker and get a current price on a Spec Miata motor.
Wow, Thanks for the heads up Greg. Turns out a Miata motor is cheaper than a new Kent.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Wow, Thanks for the heads up Greg. Turns out a Miata motor is cheaper than a new Kent.
and runs 5 times as long....
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