Remote oil relief valve idea (in a dry sump system)

[RussMcB]

A few months ago I read Jesse's idea about routing the excess pressure oil from the bypass valve to the dry sump's remote oil tank. The main benefit is the scavenge pump has less volume to keep up with. Seemed like a pretty good idea, later confirmed by George Dean.

While trying to think of a way to put the Kawasaki bypass valve outside the engine, I came up with an idea that I think is good, but have not been able to test it to confirm.

I'm using an old Mororso in-line screen filter as a housing for the Kawasaki relief valve. I removed the screen and inserted the Kawasaki valve (along with a few modified pieces to keep it all in place).

My current problem is, my test results have been disappointing, and I'm not sure if the valve/housing is the problem, or the way I'm testing it. A third possibility is that air behaves differently than oil.

I add a slight bit of air pressure (~30 lb.) and it quickly bleeds off. I was hoping the valve would hold that pressure, then I would steadily increase the pressure until it started bleeding off (around 60 lb.?).

Attached is a picture of the remove in-line valve set up, and of my test set up.

Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

PS. My engine is together, and since I wasn't sure this remote set up would work, the internal valve is shimmed with two AN washers. The external is shimmed with only one - the idea being the external valve will open before the internal. For instance, it may open at 55 lb rather than 65 (WAG). I did that so I could just cap off the external valve if this external experiment didn't work.

[kmt63]

are you now running an 06-07 kawi?or the 05?what was done on the 06-07 was to cap the pressure relief port in the motor.then on the right side galley of the motor there is a plug installed at the factory.you take that plug out and put on a -10 male to british pipe thread fitting.then on the tank you weld in a -10 male bung or use one that is already in the tank.you tap the inside on the fitting to 12x1.25 pitch.same as the pressure reief valve.then you screw on the pressure relief valve onto the inside of the tank.then run a -10 braided line from the motor to the tank.if you are running a kropp dry sump this will improve it a bunch.pm jesse or maybe he will see this and tell you more about it.he did try the inline setup and had some problems with that too.

[RussMcB]

I've recently removed the previous 2005 engine and installed a 2007.

Yea, I thought about welding something to the oil tank to house the valve and running a straight line to it, but if this works would be easier and would let me use the existing tangential entry into the tank to help reduce air bubbles.

I have the BSP adapter for the oil galley, but mine is -6, which I plan to step up to -8. Do you think a -6 will be too small?

I didn't want to cap the internal valve in case this didn't work. I didn't feel like taking the motor back out and taking the pan off. Maybe in the future. The internal valve is still functional, with shimming so it will not open as easily as stock.

I'm hoping Jesse will chime in, especially if he has details about why an in-line valve might not work.

[kmt63]

if you are running a kropp dry sump on an 06/07 motor.than this will work perfectly.but you will need to remove the valve in the engine.im pretty sure that line needs to be a -10 to match to the port size.if you are talking about the entry into the tank that swirls the oil.that still needs to be the scavenge out line.what is comming out of the pressure relief into the tank should not have much of any air in it.this setup has been run on a few cars with the kropp dry sump and works perfect.i cant rember what jesse said was the problem with the inline valve.but it didnt work right.

[RussMcB]

<snip> ... this will work perfectly.but you will need to remove the valve in the engine.

While I agree that might be better, I'm thinking (& hoping) it's not a requirement the internal valve be removed. The only disadvantage I can think of by leaving the internal valve in place less than 100% of the bypassed oil will be routed to the oil tank. If a small portion of the bypassed oil still needs to be scavenged, it will still be a significant improvement. Once I'm confident about the remote valve working I'll consider removing the internal valve.

I measured the hole in the Kawasaki valve and it was .285, so a -6AN should be sufficient. I measured a -6AN fitting and it was a little larger.

[RussMcB]

I did a new test with higher air pressure and it was a little more encouraging. It held most of the pressure and allowed some through the bypass valve.

I put approx 100 lb pressure in and it held 80 lb. (releasing 20 lb.).

If I used different input pressures, I'd get different held pressures.

I think my testing is still flawed, but at least this worked well enough that I'm confident enough to put it on the car and monitor it while cranking the engine.

It will be another week or so before I'm ready to crank the engine for the first time and build oil pressure. Updating from the 2005 to 2007 engine turned out to be a much bigger job than expected. Side by side the engines seemed identical, but a few key differences meant the engine had to be repositioned, necessitating a lot of changes since everything was such a tight fit before. I need new primary exhaust pipes, too. I'm getting close, though.

[kmt63]

i see problems with running two oil pressure relief valves.i cant say for sure what is going to happen.im just filling you in on what has been track tested and proven to work.i would talk to jesse or george dean on that.the relief valve is bleeding off because its not meant to hold air pressure.but it sounds like its working for you.

yea the 06/07 motor is a bit different than the 05.the rear motor mounts are a lot different too.west had to totally change the way the rear mount is done in the car.did you have larry kropp swap out your dry sump to fit the newer engine?

[urbanimports02]

the reason the inline valve doesnt work, is it cranks the pressure up really high when the oil is less the 200 degrees do to the oil not flowing out of the valve fast enough. the same goes for a -6 line, just too small and increases pressure when oil is slightly cooler then full operating temps. remember the relief valve is right at the outlet of the pressure pump stock. if you have both reliefs, it will prbably open the one on the inside first even if it is shimmed. the way i modded the kropp system was by installing a bspt to -8 adapter in the pressure galley and running it to a -8 fitting on the tank. i then drilled the -8 fitting on the inside of the tank out slightly to the correct size for tapping it to 12mm 1.25 and installed the relief valve inside the tank. i then installed a short 12mm x 1.25 bolt in place of the stock relief valve in the motor and it made a big improvement. it worked decent, but we still had problems and the only real fix was a dual scavenge system.

[urbanimports02]

thats funny, i just went back and read the first post. i made a setup just like that only i used a kinsler fuel filter housing and i tapped the inside of the inlet fitting so i could just thread in the valve. it was a good idea, but the best and easiest idea was welding a -8 fitting to the tank and threading the relief valve right into it. it was really clean. not sure of your capabilities, but if you needed help, you can send it to me and i would take care of it for ya. judging by the pics up there, and your car build, i am going to guess you are pretty capable fo doing it yourself. nice work.

[urbanimports02]

oh, and replace the aluminum fittings on the kropp pan with steel ones. he uses pipe thread fittings and we had a few of those crack on the pipe threads due to vibration. i guess he uses pipe thread fittings because they are cheap and do not require an o-ring. the steel ones are even cheaper but proved to stand up better. i think they were like $3-$4 each. you dont want to blow an engine from one of those breaking.

[RussMcB]

Thanks, guys. Great info. I really appreciate your input. Having knowledgeable people offer help to guys like me is extremely appreciated and we benefit greatly from it. That's one of the great things about Club Racing and the folks involved.

did you have larry kropp swap out your dry sump to fit the newer engine?

Yes. Actually I sold the 2005 system to a motorcycle racer, and Larry was extremely generous and offered me a new system for the 2007 engine for a ridiculously low price. I couldn't refuse. I've really enjoyed working with him.

oh, and replace the aluminum fittings on the kropp pan with steel ones. he uses pipe thread fittings and we had a few of those crack on the pipe threads due to vibration. i guess he uses pipe thread fittings because they are cheap and do not require an o-ring. the steel ones are even cheaper but proved to stand up better. i think they were like $3-$4 each. you dont want to blow an engine from one of those breaking.

Thanks. My aluminum fittings are new, but can easily (and cheaply) replace them with steel.

I"ll see if I can get a BSP -8AN adapter for the oil galley. That sounds better than the -6AN.

I'm going to try the combo internal/external in-line valves and see how it works. I'll take baby steps and monitor it as I go. I've got decent data logging, so this plan may work out.

While I've got you on the phone, do you think the oil from the in-line valve should go through the cooler, or nah? George said it wasn't really necessary since that oil has not spent much time in the engine, only gone throught the oil pump, so shouldn't be very hot. I'm inclined to route it to the cooler, but still unsure of the pros and cons.

Thank you!

[urbanimports02]

tried that too, but pressure was high high when at cooler temps, and never even tried it warmed up as i was seeing well over 100psi when reving. the best was a short -8 line straight to the tank with pressure valve inside. trust me, remove the one in the engine. it will work great. i believe it to be a great idea for any dry sump, but some people dont like the extra oil line, so thats why i now recirculate the pressure relief into the oil inlet to the stock pressure pump on the suzuki. thats all done internal in the pan, so no mods or extra lines. on our dual scavenge zx10 system, we leave it all stock and have no problems, but doing this would only help.