CRB advisory on FC Zetec

[Thomas Copeland]

From Fastrak January 2005 under Member Advisories, Page F-7:

FC

After investigating the FC engine issue, the Club Racing Board has revised current Ford 2.0L engine rules to authorize cost effective, aftermarket engine parts to continue the life of the Ford 2.0L engine indefinitely.

The CRB recognizes that modern engines could increase the time between rebuilds and lower costs. Because the Zetec is no longer produced and will not fit many older cars, the CRB feels the Zetec is not the best option for the future of FC.

The CRB will consider future submissions and ideas from the membership regarding engine alternatives.

[size="1"][ November 30, 2004, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Copeland ][/size]

[carnut169]

revised current Ford 2.0L engine rules to authorize cost effective, aftermarket engine parts to continue the life of the Ford 2.0L engine indefinitely.

What parts are we talking about?

[FCYTravis]

Continue the Ford 2.0l indefinitely? What happens when there aren't any blocks left?

[Jesse Yorio]

when there are no pinto blocks left then they will naturally allow the zetec. after all it'll be grossly outdated technology at that point - a fitting replacement for the pinto.

[Scott B]

I keep seeing posts regarding finding Zetec engines being difficult. Is this not the same engine that comes in the 2004 Ford Focus, on the valve cover it says 2.0 l Zetec? Just curious, am looking to convert my Ralt FA and VD FC from the very expensive and time consuming engines to something lower maintenance and cost.

Scott B

Ralt FA
SRF
911 SC
VD FC

[Matt Conrad]

I'm sure one of the engine builders will chime in soon, but it is my understanding that SCCA is allowing new part numbers for the rods and the camshaft in the Pinto motor. I also understand these new parts are much cheaper. There also appears to be some changes on what repairs and modifications can be made to the cam towers and valve seats.

I believe all of the wording was in the 12/04 Fastrack

Matt Conrad
Phoenix, AZ

[Douglas Brenner]

I thought I saw that they were allowing floating piston pins and sleved blocks. Isn't this what everybody wanted???

[Scott Hutchison]

One more time.... I think it's great that the CRB has recommended changes that will keep the Pinto motor alive and competitve. That's exactly what they should do for the Pinto.

As far as the Zetec is concerned though, they need to understand it is not about fitting Zetecs to existing chassis. It is about allowing new cars to come into the class. The fact that the Zetec is going out of production is meaningless, all engines go out of production eventually and there are lots of Zetecs in the world.

[D.T. Benner]

Scott B. If you email me at dvbenner@yahoo.com I can fill you in on Zetecs and not hijack this post. Darrell

[Thomas Copeland]

Does this mean the Zetec is dead in FC?

It appears so...

When it comes to new cars any RF02-RF04 that is now a Zetec can be converted to a Pinto engine car. You can just buy it as a roller. With Zetec out I wonder what happens now...

My understanding of one of the cost effective changes from the December Fastrack is allowing a floating piston pin so we can install Crower rods. But I'm not an engine guy so I don't know for sure.

[size="1"][ December 01, 2004, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Copeland ][/size]

[Matt Conrad]

Thomas I think you are dead on...

[Bob Wright]

The wording is interesting...on the surface it kills any future of zetec in FC in a single sentence. Adding that last line to such a definitive negative statement makes me think the CRB may actually be looking for more detailed, well thought out input (rather than letters saying 'I support or don't support zetec') before they consider anything going forward.

just 2 c

[D.T. Benner]

This result follows the path that the board set with FF1600. They want to help prolong the life of the existing engine in FC. Thats fine for most FC owners as not everyone can afford or even make the change to Zetec AND they don't have to get involved with the can of worms that trying to equalize the two engines would open up. They took the most "Logical" way out.

[Jeff Owens]

Scott B,

The '04 focus has the zetec. For '05 the zetec is out along with the SVT model and the new 2.0 l Duratec is in. Check out the October Road and Track with the '05 Buyers Guide or have fun wasting a Salesperson time asking them a bunch of questions!!!!!!!!!!

[Thomas Copeland]

I'm not exactly sure what the CRB means by "cost effective", I just got my engine rebuild estimate today (it's more than 5K). These pinto engine rebuild costs are killing me! It's these kind of costs that prevent most of us from being able to do any other work that's needed on the car.

Here I am at the start of another year looking once again like nearly every year straight at spending another 10K before I even make it to the track. (this is suppose to be "cheap" club racing remember?)

I'm begining to wonder if it wouldn't be better (and cheaper for that matter) just to do a season of Russell or Skip Barber. Certainly would be less hassle.

It's this sort of costs that'll drive me out of SCCA club racing.

It's just not cost effective with the current Pinto engine. And that's the bottom line.

[mark defer]

the majority of top running national fc guys i know spend $3500 to $4000 per year on a engine rebuild that lasts a full season. my last 6 rebuilds have averaged $3956 and that includes a rod failure which required a major rebuild [new block, crank, etc]. deduct that rebuild and the other 5 averaged $3619. each of those rebuilds lasted 9 nationals and the runoffs. all the guys i know and race against agree that that level of engine expense per year is quite reasonable compared to other classes or forms of racing. don't go complaining to some of the gt or prod guys about $4000 engine rebuilds. let's face it, racing ain't cheap, club or otherwise. everybody who gets involved in the sport knows that [or should] before he buys a car. if the above yearly engine expenses are too rich for your budget, there are other classes or forms of racing that cost less. or just maybe.....OSB.
PS: between each of those rebuilds, we never so much as had the head off once. talk about a problem free, low maintenance unit.

mark d

[Thomas Copeland]

Granted, the engine was pretty far gone which contributed to the costs being higher than 4K.

HOWEVER, Forget what the GT and prod guys are paying (those are 350 hp monsters, measured against our wimpy Pintos..we are not talking the same beast here)...what my measuring stick is and should be is what the Pro guys racing our kinda formula car are paying for thier engine rebuilds...and I know they ain'ta paying no $5,000....

And I think that's true even if they blew their Zetec engine to smittereens...

[mark defer]

well the pro guys ain't racing our types of cars [pintos] are they? they're racing zetecs. the thing is, rebuild costs for pintos hasn't suddenly taken some jump. these engine costs have been stable for the 12 years i've been racing FC. anyone getting into the class should have known what these costs were before they invested. if you bought an FC and later were suprised about operating costs, shame on you for not doing your homework. on the other hand, if you bought an FC knowing what the costs would be, and are now bitching about those costs, i don't know how to respond to that.
i'll state it again. most all the guys i know racing FC have raced some other form or class of racing, and to a man feel that the cost associated with running a pinto are very reasonable compared to other types of racing.

mark d

[Dale Carter]

I agree with Mark. I have been racing for the best part of 40 years. Started in drag racing and got into road racing in the mid 80's. Paid 25k for a Ford 427 side oiler to put in a Cobra. I also paid 150.00 for a junkyard 1600, rebuilt it myself and ran it for two years in a club ford. Keith and I talked to a guy last week that bought a Porsche Cup car and his rebuilds are 35k. I think we would all be surprised how much a top shelf E-Prod engine rebuild is. Racing is expensive in any form. I know there are guys on this forum that do their own engine work and save mucho money and have a ton of fun. I would love to get two or three years out of a rebuild and still be competitive. If we could all snap our fingers and have a Zetec in our cars no one would complain. I think the Zetecs are coming but until that happens, Pinto based FC is a great class to be in.

[Thomas Copeland]

Whoaa...wait a minute here. So that means we should all just surrender and accept the fact that racing engine rebuild costs are going to be high simply because they have always have been that way even when there is a chance now to reduce them? (well, was...)

Wow...why don't we all just run into a hail of machine gun bullets too ...Damn the torpoedoes full speed ahead!!!!!

Two years ago I sold my FC. Just prior to that I paid $5600 for an engine rebuild. I knew what the costs were to rebuild an engine. I might have been in denial at the time (or was it shock?) but I knew.

At the time I assessed whether or not I should stay in FC, get into another class, or just get out.

One of the reasons I stayed in FC was because I saw promised on the horizon. A newer engine that didn't require you rebuild it up fresh every time you changed the oil in it. One that had a potential to last 3, maybe 4 seasons. Now we are just going to give up and accept that because we race money ain't worth the paper it's printed on? That we should just toss good money after bad by keeping this dinosaur engine alive.

I'm never going be one of those guys that tinker in a garage doing their thing on their engine. So I see no upside to keeping the Pinto. None. Nana. Just costs, more costs, and more and more costs. Maybe keeping the Pinto works out best for those that do tinker. But is this a racing class or a tinkering class? Would hate to see this class go the way of FF1600.

Just can't see the logic in this resistance to change. Do you all really just want to throw your money away like this? If that's the way you feel send it to me instead. I can use it to move into Zetec. Leave you guys who want to keep your Pinto's in the tar pits with the other dinosaurs.

Right now there isn't even an option available to the Pinto. This cancer is inoperable. Man that's bad....

With Zetec DOA, are we back to the Duratec?

(guess I've used up my rant privileges for the year..)

[size="1"][ December 02, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Copeland ][/size]

[Dale Carter]

Don't get me wrong Thomas, I feel your engine bill pain, we had two this year and we were not happy. Your 5600.00 bill is quite high but there must have been reasons for this. Like Mark said, most rebuilds are in the 4k range. Using 20/20 hindsight, we could have moved up to a Zetec with the money we spent. I seriously considered a conversion or a different car but who do we race with on a Regional level? Just weigh the options. Most of the FC's out there are in the 12k to 20k range. A conversion to a Zetec in a late model Van Diemen is in the 15k range and a used Zetec is still in the low 30k range. Pretty steep for the bulk of us grunts who wish we had more money to get to Zetec land. You can buy quite a few rebuilds for that kind of money. We still own what we can afford (or can't afford). Thats why most of us drive Pintos.

[carl correll]

Thomas,

FF's are powered by the 1600cc "Kent" engine. FC and S2 are powered by the 2000cc "NE" engine. That's the facts. These engines cost an average of 350 bucks per weekend to run. If built by a pro builder. Compare that to the other expenses of racing, and I fail to see what the problem is. Don't like it, buy an offering from Enterprises. Open wheel or closed wheel. Sounds like your answer to me.

[Paddy O'Brien]

This same debate is going on in England right now only its Zetec 1800 FF against the old Pinto 1600. Over there 1600 is way more popular at the club level because the Zetec is considered too "complicated"(fuel injection?). But Ford made an announcement about a month ago ,after Jaguar was sold, that they were going to put more into "grass roots" racing, specifically FF. So the world will have to wait and see what Ford motor Ford wants to promote(probably a motor they currently make?) For club racing, FC-Pinto has to be the best speed to expense ratio of all.

[Purple Frog]

Originally posted by Paddy O'Brien:
For club racing, FC-Pinto has to be the best speed to expense ratio of all.

Take it from the self proclaimed "King o' Cheap"... Paddy has only posted here 10 times, but I think he summed it up pretty good.

[cfahan]

it wwill be interesting to see what the aftermarket parts are, if they extend the life of the pinto from one season with no maintainence to two then its hard to see any reason to switch, however i don't see any problem with letting pro spec zetecs run with us at a known disadvantage to raise class #. it's up to the zetecs to choose wheather to run with us or atlantics.

[D.T. Benner]

I think most of what requires a Pinto to need a rebuild every season is more related to the basic design than the parts. I doubt that different parts will extend the life[without loss of performance]between rebuilds. Maybe one of the Pro engine builders can chime in here? [img]smile.gif[/img] Also the 2.3 Duratecs used in the FSCCA car are having some reliabilty problems because they were built for a lower speed application than the Zetec. The Zetec is "Detuned" in the F2000 pro series by retarding the cams and programing the ECU to limit power to 158-160 at 6000 RPM. Thats less HP and RPM then the engine has in a Focus. The Pinto was never designed with high RPMs in mind and that contributes to it's wear rate. Also to get the power people want the engine is built "Loose" and once the edge goes off it's time to rebuild. Just my 2 cents.

[David Ferguson]

Only the Pacific F2000 Pro series is using detuned Zetec. The USFF2000 is not detuned and makes more power than a current Pinto. But they are getting 5000 miles, with NO loss of performance for a regional club guy, that might be 4 - 5 years!

[Thomas Copeland]

Exactly Dave. I could handle paying rebuild costs if they came around once every 4-5 years. I could even handle a $5,000 bill if it was only every 4-5 years. But $3,000, $3,500, $4,000, $4,500, $5,000 every year? We all must be insane!!

Now, why can't I just stuff this into the back of my car? Why does it have to be a full blown $12 grand Pro Spec ECU gadget engine?

Zetec engine on ebay for $1,325.95: (normal price $2495).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...spagename=WDVW

This thing runs don't it? If it works in a Focus, or a MGB, TR6, or whatever why not in the back of an F2000?

I guess I just don't get it. I really am befuddled...

[size="1"][ December 02, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Copeland ][/size]

[carl correll]

The pro spec Zetec is tuned to the rated power by ECU mapping and header primary size. The "detuned" package uses a restrictor plate and re-mapped ECU. For racing use it has a structural dry sump pan and pump, aftermarket ECU and fuel injection system. You could use the road car plastic throttle body system, but it is difficult to package in a formula car. Ford built enough engines for their production needs and service engines for the required ten years. When they are gone, that's it. These engines are not designed to be rebuilt. Last year, I offered to fit one of these engines into an S2 for testing. Sandy offered to supply the engine. There was absolutely no interest from the 4Flight S2 group.

[carnut169]

I hear ya Thomas. It SEEMS crazy to spend triple the cost of currently available Zetec motors to rebuild our 2.0s.

Oh well.

It also SEEMS crazy for the guys in GT1 cars to spend $25,000+ on a motor and turn slower lap times than our old Pinto cars can.

I guess it is all based on your perspective.

While we are talking about it, lets throw Honda S2000 motors in... 9,000rpms for what, 50,000 miles? 240hp... and light.

[D.T. Benner]

I know someone who has an S2000 Honda engine but our LD-200's would never live with that kind of power. If you change the gearbox you would have to redesign the rear suspension. If were not for that I would try the swap myself. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Douglas Brenner]

There is no such thing as a Ztech rebuild!! Right now what happens is that you send your race motor in and all the racing parts (intake, oil system etc) is stripped off your old one and put on a NEW CRATE Ztech motor. It is then put on the dyno and sent to you. There is not an infinate supply of new cheap (you could buy one for $700) Ztech motors. At some point they will actually have to be rebuilt. Then it will be the same as a pinto to rebuild. So lets say you send your pinto in every year for a $2000 redo. 3 years-$6000. Send your Ztech in three years for your $3500 (while it lasts) rebuild. Difference $2500, divided by three is $833 per year more for your pinto. A new pro-spec Ztech is almost exactly the same price as a new top engine builder Pinto. Then figure in the Ztech stress on gears and running gear in general, I don't think a pinto is that much more expensive. Then figure out how much it will cost you to change over. It is very possible that in three years the supply of Ztech crate motors will be gone anyway. Do the math! Also, I think everyone is comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a serious pinto effort with a not so serious Ztech one. I can bet that the top competative Ztech cars are not waiting three years for a rebuild, and I can also bet that plenty of club racers are running their pintos for more than a season without messing with them.
www.brennerfabrication.com

[size="1"][ December 03, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Douglas Brenner ][/size]

[Jim Nash]

Doug,

Stating that the rebuild costs of a Pinto and a Zetec will be the same is an assumption. The newer engines/parts are built with better materials, by improved processes that can hold higher tolerances, and are designed to spin the rpms they are being raced at. In the past, if you got a brand new pinto engine you wouldn’t just throw the race prepped carb and oil system on it and go racing. You’d to tear it down and race prepped all the various internal parts. For the sake of argument, I’ll assume that this race prepping will not be necessary, therefore reducing the amount of costly labor required for a rebuild.

As for the gears and drive train, the restricted intake and remapped ECU of the Zetec are intended to make the horsepower and torque curves the same as those of the Pinto. If this is successful, the wear and tear would be no different.

We can slice this up and view it from a thousand perspectives but until its put to the test it will all be (entertaining) speculation.

Jim Nash

[mark defer]

les,
have you ever been to the runoffs as a competitor?
IF so, it must have been in some other class because i don't remember you competing in FC.

mark d

[carnut169]

the one race farce that has become known as the “Runoffs.” A race that costs too much, takes too long, requires too much travel and in the end provides only one race of like cars that may total 25. Who cares?

I've never competed in the runoffs, but I've got to believe that bringing the best drivers in the class from all over the country to compete keeps this race from being a "farce". I'd love to do it....

[Purple Frog]

Leave out one little word and Les made some good points.
In sales I learned a long time ago "It's best not to call anybody's baby ugly."

[Steve Demeter]

Les,
If you want to run a Ztec, there are several places for you to race.

If you want to degrade the Runoffs by calling it a farce, you are sorely misinformed and mistaken and should not speak until you are knowledgeable about what it is you are speaking about.

And if you want to race your Ztec, race it in the places that are available to you. Don't try to mess up what most people in it feel is a good class jsut so you have another place to race your Ztec.

[carnut169]

In sales I learned a long time ago "It's best not to call anybody's baby ugly."

LOL. How true (but we HAVE all seen some ugly babies). [img]redface.gif[/img]

[sarrcford]

I will never forget that day when my momma said to me, "Robbie, you should never publicly discuss politics, religion or Zetecs".

[John Church]

Here is the big picture as I see it. We let the Zetecs in with the huge disadvantage over the pintos. With the extra 5-10 cars per event, the racing and competition only gets better. As the racing and competition heats up, Mark and the rest of the Pinto powered cars (Sorry to pick on you Mark!) can purchase the lastest $3000 head (this will keep Curtis and the engine builders happy). This will also keep the pinto guys happy since they can continue to spend money on their engines and allow the guys that like to tinker to do their thing. Meanwhile back in Zetec land, the zetec powered car owners will be required to host all Saturday night beer parties (since they have all this extra money they aren't spending on engine costs) which can last late into the evenings (later for the zetec guys since they can't win on Sunday anyway!) with lots of signing and dancing. Everybody wil be one big happy fraternity. Once the rest of the paddock sees the fun being had in FC, the class will grow exponentially. As the class grows, the competition between the engine builders heats up (here we go again Curtis!) as the engine competition heats up, so does the price of the engines. Again, the pinto drivers are tickled pink as they can spend more money on their engines. Soon the Zetec owners are required to bring in live bands for the Saturday night parties, the parties soon last all night!
As class size grows, FC soon becomes a class all by itself. Now for the ensuing tire war... Who loses in this scenario?? This should cover everybody. Any questions?

Seriously though, this scenario may not be as far fetched as it initially sounds. The idea is to increase numbers and cometition. My apologies in advance to anyone I may have offended, especially Mark and Curtis. No disrespect was intended! I love you guys! This discussion is the best entertainment I get most days!

[size="1"][ December 07, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: John Church ][/size]