Car Counts

[Purple Frog]

During a visit to a friend's shop last weekend I was scanning through a stack of recent high gloss magazines put out by various vintage racing groups.
I was somewhat surprised by the number of cars that would be SCCA eligible that were instead racing in vintage. Most notably cars that would fit in HP or CF. Looked to me to be fairly high car counts.
Then in one issue I saw photos of a west coast race, and pictured clearly was a '96 VD.
Having only circled in the SCCA world, I guess it was sort of an awakening experience. Maybe not as many cars are just wasting away in garages as I had been previously thinking.
Then I find out that a '98 Tatuus is now vintage because the rules in the pro series to which it was constructed have changed thus putting it into a vintage status...

[JHaydon]

One of the vintage races at Road America this summer included an S2 that was not yet painted.

The rest of the story: it was a shakedown run for a brand new car which went on to compete in the Runoffs.

The point of the story: if they allow an '04 S2, then what isn't allowed?

[jattus]

I'm guessing that may be my old 96 both cars where shipped to CA to participate in VARA.

[Jeff Owens]

No worries,

My RF-91 is in the garage, but I am working on it and it should be ready for the spring season. And yes it will be running SCCA events.

With the addition of B.O.S.S. (Big Open Wheel ??? Series) to the HSR events, there has been increased numbers of newer model Formula cars. It is good to see though!!!!! Any one who has a chance to check out a vintage event should take full advantage, they are a lot of fun and full of History!!!!!

Jeff

[Dennis McCarthy]

Several years back a friend who used to drive FF in the NER went to vintage with an old Atlantic car and never looked back. When I asked why he said that he enjoyed a paddock full of spectators and the social aspects of a club atmosphere. He was tired of going to Nationals where the two or three spectators in the stands were relatives he had brought with him. Has anyone else noted the tremendous amount of spectators that show up for vintage events? What can be done to open our sport up to a larger audience?

[EYERACE]

regardless of the car, in general, if you can afford the entry, a lot of vintage groups will get you on the track, especially HSR - and in a way i sort of like that - an attitude of "hey we're going to call ourselves something and if you have a safe car and the desire to drive then we'll let you"....there are purists too but then again it takes all kinds to make a world. many of the vintage entries are 'arrive and drive' or 'driver owned but prep shop stored/prepped/transported'. is it that the generally higher entry fees of vintage groups are higher because of increased insurance costs because the group sells spectator tickets?.....or is it there are more spectators because the vintage group actually promotes themselves? the HSR autumn daytona event [not this year due to construction] has had many radio spots in the past and large turnout of cars and spectators....the scca continues to ....1. say we don't want spectators due to higher insurance costs - even though there are some spectator events, ....2 be the secret car club because of no media advertising IMHO

[Goldie]

Eye just have to pop in here and comment on Eye's take on vintage racing. HSR is NOT, in my opinion, a true vintage club and generalizing about vintage racing based on your experiences with HSR is dangerous. HSR is a "for profit" company selling race entries for a living and for that very reason will accept a wider range of cars and charge a high entry fee. Heh, a buck's a buck. SVRA is a sister company to HSR and even they don't accept everything that HSR will but they too charge similar heavy fees. All done for a profit. There are many "not for profit" clubs organizing vintage events and while most accept pre'73 cars, some clubs are sticking to pre'62. Entry fees with these clubs are typically 30 - 40% less than with the above corporations and offer much more track time. I'm not totally confident I know why vintage racing is so successful at attracting spectators but I believe much of it is the nostalgia thing. You'll find lots of old British sports cars driven by guys in their '50s showing up and hanging out. Plenty of access to interesting cars and their geezer peers who race them. Possibly a more attainable fantasy than a national F2000 ride. Lots of these people attend the same events every year and I'll bet when the IRL goes to the Glen next year, they won't out draw the SVRA "vintage" event held a couple of weeks before.
Dave

[Charles Warner]

Now I have to chime in. As a 30 year SCCA member and an active "vintage" (historic?) racer, I have seen both sides. First of all, is there a problem with a sanctioning body breaking even or making a profit? Are all sanctioning bodies supposed to loose money?

B.O.S.S. is for Big Open Single Seaters. Currently Formula 3000 up through anything you want to bring. (Soon to include atlantics.)

High costs? Not much more than a typical SCCA race. Do you get more? You betchum, Little Beaver (apologies to the younger readers who have no friggin' idea what that means!)

Vintage, or Historic, is an extremely viable and attractrive place to race. HSR and SVRA are probably the two heaviest hitters. While I am somewhat of a purist and feel there should not be a 2003 ALMS car on the track at a "vintage" event, they did not ask me. However, if you pick your events wisely, you can find yourself running events with the cream of the historic groups at venues that are magnificent. Watkins Glen, Atlanta, Elkhart, Tremblant, etc. and with cars that are quite "historically significant." By the way, next year I can run 10 fantastic vintage events at the Glen, Road America, Atlanta, VIR, Tremblant, etc. The Club needs to be aware that there are other options out there that are quite viable.

I am not pimping for vintage/historic events. I am a devoted SCCA racer (and on the Advisory Board for Formula/Sports Racers.) However, there are other venues that do call to some drivers whose cars may be out of the ballpark as far as competition is concerned and they want a place to race.

To clarify, I run a Lola CSR in Club events, a Reynard F3000 in BOSS events and a Shadow DN-9 in HGP events. All have their place and are fun. So, let's not denigrate anyone's personal choice of venue.

The comment regarding the Glen and IRL versus the historic event is interesting. I wonder why the IRL has contracted to the HGP (Historic Grand Prix) group to have a support race with 1966 - 1983 F1 cars. (At Infineon Raceway as well!) Obviously the IRL recognizes the draw we provide with our historic machines.

[Todd TCE]

Reading through all of this I find some common ground that often makes 'other' racing far more attractive to car owners.

The theme here is comrodairy, track time, and cost effectiveness. Not to mention an aging racer population we all know is prevelant in SCCA.

Comrodairy is what makes racing fun. It's in SCCA as well, but often in small groups of folks. In vintage I've seen it cross the ranks from sports cars to ex Nascar to old Indy cars. Need a hand? Need a push? Just want to bench race? It's all there.

Track time at many of these events is often more than you get at an SCCA event. And usually more hassle free than many of us are used too. Gear check, papers in order, present the car to the grid and you're off.

Cost controls or operational costs can vary by the type of car but mostly by the depth of the owners pocket. Given the events are more low key for balls out racing they don't have a need for the "tweak of the week" or the need to keep up with the Jones's. They can pay to play at their own rate.

Lastly the aging thing. We've talked about this for the past few years. As the SCCA racer ages (gracefully) often they look to other cars for more pleasure in a less pressure packed format. They can likely afford that F? car they watched race ten years ago now. Car prices lower, income up, what's not to like? They also know that at 40 they are not going to make a carreer in racing so why not enjoy a cool car?

Attend a couple of these events. You might find them enjoyable. For completely different reasons.

[mwalker]

my only experience w/ vintage racing was as a spectator at the walter mitty in atlanta, many years ago. the impression i have of the vintage seen is the cars are the star, whereas in club racing, it's the racing (driver) that's the focus. by that i mean club racing is more about the actual racing, and in vintage, i assume there are rules in place to penalize hard racing (rightfully so, to minimize any damage to the great cars). do you think the popularity of the vintage series (w/ drivers) is in some part due to less intense on track experience? i'm not sure myself. i would be afraid of overstepping boundaries if i ran vintage.

[Charles Warner]

DOn't be too quick to assume these are a bunch of old fuddy-duddy racers who want to "tour" in their cars. While there are definite rules in place to keep the idiocy down, there is serious racing going on. I would point out that the absolute track record at Road Atlanta (current record!) is held by a "vintage" car and the second fastest lap as well.

The on track experience is definitely not "less intense" and the experience is what you make out of it. The boundaries you fear you would overstep are pretty much normal. Don't hit anyone, don't cause crashes, don't be too aggressive. Sort of like they should be everywhere, no?

[mwalker]

spelling correction....scene. anyway, during the vintage events, are there a lot of short, individual group track sessions, or longer sessions of multiple groups? i know when larry set the lap record at atlanta, he probably wasn't waiting for too many people to get out of the way of the benneton [img]tongue.gif[/img] . my question is do you think more drivers (of any age) prefer the structure of the racing rules that vintage offers, versus a more open structure of scca? i know i've made passes on people going into T1 at atlanta that probably would have raised some eyebrows at the mitty. no contact, but very surprising to the passee. i think i would try some vintage events if the schedule allowed it, because it sounds like the fields are quite large (ie: VIR a couple of weeks ago). like everyone else, i'm curious about how to get more participants and spectators out to have some fun. whenever i've had freinds express some interest, it usually fades when i tell them i don't change tires or refuel during a race, AND they can't have any beer until we're done

[Charles Warner]

The groupings and amount of track time vary with the event. Mitty or BRIC and it's really tight, although at the BRIC this year we got substantially more track time (sessions of at least 30 minutes) than any SCCA event I've been to, including a double national.

Level of driver skills? I can only speak for my group but the level of driver skills is a good bit above the average SCCA grid. With that level comes experience and some sense of respect for the situation. Larry Connors gives no quarter, in any car he drives, and we have had to sit on him a bit for doing it.

I'm not sure about the allusion to a difference in racing rules. Tech might be a bit laxer although there are always those who want to win at any cost and will prepare their cars a bit outside of the rules. IMHO the vintage groups hold the competitors to a driving standard that should be emulated by all amateur/club oriented events.

HSR/SVRA provide a very viable and excellent opportunity to race on great tracks with significant machinery. More of a WIne-and-Cheese feeling, I grant you, but what's wrong with that?

[mwalker]

sounds like fun.....i'll check the web sites for more info.

[jattus]

Besides you don't get much of a chance to see F1 cars run in SCCA
I went to the VIR the other week and I am still recovering after watching a F1 car trounce the field by lapping everyone except P2(f1, indy lights, champ cars and f3) -I think it was the coolest thing I have ever seen/ heard (Judd V10)

[size="1"][ November 05, 2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: jattus ][/size]

[Rick Kirchner]

Getting back to Froggie's post....

Two years ago, after my '72 SV got bent, I bought the JR Parish/Mike Fazio 94 VD in an attempt to get faster using a car where:

1) a bit of off-road doesn't result in a damaged tub
2) parts could be obtained without fabrication or a six month wait
3) I wouldn't have to break the car in half every other weekend
4) people that know how to build the engines and set up the cars are still alive

True - there is a lot of good racing and serious competitors in vintage, but it doesn't have the killer edge that SCCA nationals have. After all, only a couple of guys have moved from vintage to pro lately, and the wide disparity in speed and safety, especially in the big fast formula classes, demands the ultimate respect for the other guy. The front hoop on my '72 was held on with less than 50 rivits...

Costs are a bit higher in part because there's more compensation for workers and swag for drivers.

I asked my class rep in VARA if it would be ok to run such a modern car in "exibition". "X" cars don't run for points or trophies (almost anything can run in "x", including modern cars doing shakeowns, you just need to respect the other cars that are racing in class)- I just wanted some low-pressure track time to figure out the basics of the car. At my first event, Craig Hibbard and Dan Longacre took a look at it and asked if I could find more F2000 drivers. I ran solo last year, but with the support of the VARA board we made FC an official class this year. And, we got 4 new cars (the Jattus cars, the 10/10ths car, and the baby blue Van Dieman from Wisconsin). One of the younger FF guys just bought a '97 out of Texas. I've been trying to get a few of the other So Cal F2000 guys to run with us, but no luck so far.

At the same time our S2000 class is growing by leaps and bounds.

Miles Whitlock ran his '95 FC in a Vintage event at RA last year, and got a pretty cold shoulder. But the clubs will come around, because the cars are fun, fast, plentiful, rugged, economical, and have a true link to a pro series. Whe FF was first allowed in vintage they were 11 years old. My car is 11 years old next year. Warrick Bryan's is 16 years old. Maybe one day when all the FBs are gone Monoposto will come around and recognize the F2000 FCs.

We wrote out F2K rules with an eye to the future, establishing a "club continental" class for rocker arm cars (FC1) and FC2 for the pushrod cars. We covered through '97 because most of those cars are not economical to convert to a Zetec. We were going to go much more radical wih the engine rules than the stuff just released in Fastrack, but decided to stay more aligned with the SCCA so that guys could cross-over without guilt.

Although I've been a SCCA member and/or worker since '82 (with a couple years off here and there) There's just too much crap in the club that torques my bolts, and while I will occasionally run an SCCA event, I much prefer the atmosphere in VARA.

At the end of the day, when the SCCA has completed it's transformation into a SOLO and spec road racing club that's a wholly-owned subsidiary of Mazda (or Ford, or Datsun, or Porsche) someone is going to look around and see all the great racing in vintage.

At the end of January VARA will be back at California Speedway - all you-all come on out and enjoy the warmth and VARA hospitality!

[Charles Warner]

First of all, there is a world of difference between the West Coast "vintage" groups (VARA) and the East Coast groups (HSR/SVRA). On the left coast almost anything can run and entries are sought regardless of car applicability. On the East coast there is a bit more pickiness (most of the time) and these cars are put into a group of their own (i.e. S2s) if possible.

The East coast groups do allow modern cars of significance (their definition, of course) and these usually fall into the BOSS group (a 2004 F1 car if you've got the bucks and talent) or the big sports racer class (Pilbeams, R&S World cars, LeMans cars, etc.) The more defined classes are run pretty strictly as far as I know. (I'm not that involved with them.)

As for vintage drivers going pro: I'd posit it might be the other way around. Look at the number of pro drivers who have turned to vintage. I've raced with Bobby Rahal, James King, Pete Lovely, Dan Marvin, Jim Busby, Rick Knoop, Brian French, Duncan Dayton, Larry Connors, Joe Blacker, Bobby Brown, Juan Gonzales, Frank Jellinack, et al. These guys are all ex-pro and they don't hold back. Bottom line is you can have that "edge" at any event, unless, of course, you mean going over it and creating a dangerous situation. It is certainly true the vintage groups are a lot less tolerant of over-aggression and idiocy than some of the club events are. More's the pity all groups are not that way.

I will say that there's little to compare to the grids of the GTP cars, or HGP F1 cars See here , or BOSS cars, or 1960 over 2.5 liter cars, or . . . , or . . . .you get my point. And, it is eminemtly possible to join these ranks and race with some very significant cars for reasonable money (well, racing is never reasonable, but for the same as most of us spend in Club racing - unless you opt for the high dollar maintenance cars.)

[size="1"][ November 06, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Charles Warner ][/size]

[Rick Kirchner]

I agree with most of what you say here Charlie - the ability to "run anything " is covered by the exibition rule, but we have very few cars that run "x" and rarely for more than a couple of events in a row. The big difference is the "significance". The specific car doesn't need a pedigree. Want to run AS? Go get an old mustang and build one up. We are still slow to accept newer cars, and have no sliding age scale, but we are considerably more receptive than some of the east coast clubs and the guys that run the Monterey Historics (General Motorsports?). We also don't allow many of the mods you see in current SCCA production cars, so you frequently need to backdate to be legal. On the other hand, some mods that were popular in the 50's and 60's like alternative bodywork for bugeyes and louvers are allowed, which aren't in the SCCA.

[Todd TCE]

I think it less important about what run groups the cars are put into or which clubs offer the most 'vintage' vintage than the simple fact that collectively they ALL seem to pull in car counts. As a whole that tells me there are less folks today interested in the latest and greatest of SCCA and more who want to simply own a nice car they can be proud of and now want a place to run it.

[Rick Kirchner]

Agreed - all one has to do is look at how hard good track dates are to come by compared to 20 years ago, despite the increase in tracks. Vintage, marque clubs, NASA, and track day clubs are a big reason.