Mosport National

[Wren]

Wren wrote: "What I would like to get a handle on is how long one of these engines is going to hold up before it needs to go back to George for a refresh. 6 weekends? 1000 miles? "

I would have to think that if these engines need to be refreshed every 1000 miles, the class will not be cost effective and may have limited participation over the long haul.

I think you will find that engine cost level to be very much in line with other classes. My experience was with FV and an engine was very expensive and lasted 10 weekends or so with doing the head at 5. First rebuild was $2400 with shipping and I was assuming an average cost of $2000/rebuild with shipping. I never got a handle on what the gearbox should cost over time, but it was probably going to be pretty reasonable. I think FB can be cheaper than that. The zetec may be the most cost effective package in racing and it will go 7500 miles, obviously the zetec in a street car will go orders of magnitude more than that.

As I stated, if your the racer who wants to fall into the category of being first and breaking records you best be prepared for the possible breaks, burns and overall costs for engine replacement. Carnut's comments of driving the regionals vs. hard driving national events is a testimonial to my own comments above.

I agree that trying to run up front is always going to cost more and driving the engines hard is going to wear on them more, all I want to see is some certainty added to the engines. The class will not survive with people just wanting to be at the racetrack. If you can't drive hard on these engines, there won't be an FB class in 5 years.

It would be nice to know what racers like Glenn Cooper and others spend on an annual basis to run the national races. That includes travel, gas, car repairs and everything related.

What was the average cost for those that attended the June Sprints in overall costs to make that event?

I think it is in line with how fast the class is, somewhere between FC and FA.

At this point, two racers who owned cars and are active here on ApexSpeed have stepped forward to discuss costs and why they have left the class or have considered selling their cars. That is Russ McB and now Sean O. I really give them alot of credit for being honest and sincere with their past experiences. The intent of this class was never intended to be a "deep pockets" class. But in any sport, in order to be the best, you have to pay the price somewhere, somehow.

I hear people say that the class was not meant to be a deep pocket class, but the rules do not reflect that. I think that any experienced car builder would tell you to expect costs to increase with speed, especially in a true formula class.

If there was specific problem with these engines causing them to blow out, Suzuki and all their R & D would have the problem solved. I have not seen any reported problems like this with motorcycle drivers, but they also don't constantly push these little engines to the extremes like race car drivers do or will.

I would have to think there are many variables that cause these engines in F1000 cars to blow. not one specific issue.

Lets see, if possible....what can be determined why these racers are blowing up engines. My guess, ....driving them constantly to the maxium limits.

I think the issue is much more likely to be with problems with the oiling system. The engines work fine in a bike because they are not driven as hard and because the oiling systems were designed and tested by an experienced team of engineers with decades of experience on this system. I think you will find unique oiling systems in each car out there, or at least between each model. For example, Kyle starved his engine for oil because a seal went. If that seal had gone on a bike, the motor would have popped just the same. The question is if that seal went because of high oil temps, low oil pressure, high water temps, or just driving the engine hard.

Driving the engines hard is going to make them last not as long, just like every other class in the SCCA, without exception. No one in spec miata is getting 300,000 miles out of their engine and no one in FB should expect crazy mileage out of a race engine either. The other bike motor powered race classes aren't having problems like FB and they are driving their cars hard, so FB needs to figure out how to make their engines last as long as the other guys.

Does anyone know how long a bike engine lasts in a race environment?

[Wright D]

Does anyone know how long a bike engine lasts in a race environment?

Hasty? I think he may know a bit about this?

[Wren]

In the world of dirt circle track racing it is not uncommon for a Mini sprint or Mod Lite to go the entire race distance at wide open throttle. All of these folks have been able to figure out how to make the motors last, so I think that we can too.

I agree, in my opinion FB is just going through some growing pains.

It seems to be pretty easy. Keep them cool and make sure the oil pressure is consistent. If you do that then the motors last a LONG time.

I think this is going to be the secret also. It isn't clear so far how well everyone is doing this.

The motor in the factory Phoenix F1K.07 did 14 races without a problem before we had George rebuild the motor. That car has always been driven 10/10ths. At one point the Factory F1k.07 was a rental, and got beat up and abused as a rentals tend to; including missed shifts and over revs. Yet it survived. In fact that same motor came straight out of the F1K.07 and went right into the brand new F1K.09 and ran two more races, all without a rebuild!

Good information, thanks for sharing.

Could be that us F1000 guys are not doing a good enough job with air flow over the coolers, or the coolers may be too small. Could just be that a large group of us are all getting to know these motors and their particular nuances.

Keepem' cool, try not to bounce off the hard limiter too much, and make sure your oil pressure is constantly high.

Words to live by.

[Rick Ross]

I am very interested in Coop's post mortem on his engine as he has previously been very successful with keeping his engines alive. I think the only one he had to pull early previously was because his dry sump pump ate itself and that can't be blamed on motorcycle engines. His temps and pressures were very good also if memory serves.

Wren,

I think that you may be mistaken regarding Coop's engine failure rate. I am aware of several engine failures that he has experienced.......Barber, Sebring, and Mosport at a minimum. I can't recall if there were any others.

[HastyHorn]

Sorry guys, I haven't been attending the bike races for the last five years of so BUT I will make some general observations:

The fast DSR's seem to survive quite well but it took a couple of years of fiddling with airflow and radiator sizes, etc. before a solid package was arrived at.

The FB design's, even with good airflow through radiators and oil coolers have a much tighter package around the engine itself, potentially trapping a lot of exhaust heat.

Ceramic coating of exhaust systems may help with the above problem.

LOAD is the largest contributor to heat generation, a single rider on a bike doesn't come close to what we are asking these engine's to do.

Most of the motorcycle manufacturer's offer race contingency money to bike racer's....thus providing some funds for the successful bike racer..Hell! some guy's make a living at it. Those funds are largely used up buying rebuild parts because they know that they have to re-build fairly frequently.

The bike engine's get more powerful; every year...the question is...do the bike engines get tougher every year or are the factories allowing the OEM bikes to get closer to the limit every time they raise the rpm limit and bump the compression.

We may be at the apex of what can be asked of bike engines considering the current EPA emissions and sound regulations. The current Yamaha R1 in Europe is one of the best HP performers amongst all the players but here in the U. S. it is an also ran. The U.S. version of the 2009 R-1 with its "fly-by-wire" won't hold at full throttle....when it begins to approach peak HP readings it also begins to approach peak intake noise...the throttle position sensor indicates that when the throttle is held wide open the butterflies are gradually settling back to 80%...a which point they begin to open again until they approach full open and then they close again. It makes for a very spikey dyno curve. There is no obvious "cut this wire" cure...so far.

The current model Honda CBR is one of the best performers in all the comparison tests but take it out of it's chassis and it won't perform. The electronics demand that the airflow to the airbox be within particular parameters and that the dash be part of the feed-back loop. The greatest benefit of the current Suzuki (at least as far as the 08 is concerned) is that it is still relatively simple and it works in our application (sort of).

I have no doubt that all of these problems can be worked out and the success that FB has had so early is also what makes its teething problems so obvious.

Hasty Horn

[jjstecher]

I would wage a good deal of the engine failures we see are user errors (mechanical over rev, low oil, to much heat, etc) versus a true mechanical failure. I personally think the engine costs are massively lower than anything else I have ever ran including HPDE crap in my street car.

I think some folks just like to beat the engine costs because they want to when in reality its probably not a problem considering the miles turn in our cars. I spend more on tires every two weekends than I do for a motor.

I say to really cut costs lets use R45 Hoosiers or 250 GY's that last 3-4 weekends.

Man this Mosport thread really got hijacked. :P

[glenn cooper]

Damn Rick, SEVERAL engine failures?
Well if several is the new 2, I guess so...

Yes, Barber was failure # 1 from last August, I had been shifting at over 13k and hitting the rev limiter quite often. That engine was in the car from the beginning, being a brand new, never opened up unit from a new bike. This engine was wet sumped w/ a flat pan/baffle. It was in the car for a regional at Rd Atl just prior to Sprints '08, The Sprints, and possibly something else before the Barber test day Kaboom/Fire in August '08.

I learned a lot from that, lowered my rev limit to 12k, got a larger oil cooler, and went w/ a dry sump system, getting everything together just in time for ARRC '08, w/ a very lightly used engine that had been gone through and prepped prior to installation.
Temps for oil and water were real nice, 240/O and 200/W.

One race later, w/ less than 100 miles on the engine, the brand new dry sump system system's scavenge pump failed at Sebring. Incredibly the engine survived unscathed, probably due to the massive amount of oil in the crankcases (8 qts) providing for some old school splash lubrication, and the fact that I shut it down quickly.
This engine was gone through again, had the GSXR oil pump, cam chain and rod bolts replaced. All journals and bearings were mint condition.

This engine then went on to run/win/set a few lap records at Kershaw, Roebling, Rd Atl, VIR 2x Nat'l, Daytona, before coming out and being placed in the trailer as the backup for my Northern Tour/'09: Sprints, Mosport, WGI'nt'l.

Kershaw = DNF - Couldn't keep it on the track after setting O/A pole, clutch slave bolts loosened up, allowing slave to cock, and keep pushrod from returning, basically kept clutch disengaged. Moral? Don't race on 2 hour's sleep in the previous 2 days!

Roebling - 2nd behind Taylor and RFR1000. Really shoulda put on the 8 and 10" rims for this event, suffered massive understeer. Ran the private test day and the track test day for this event.

Rd Atl - DNF, light crash before first lap completed, front wing and nose damage.
Ran the test day as well.

VIR - Ran test day, won race 1, led race 2 till chain master link decided to shear one of it's pins in half. The broken link revealing one pin w/ slight/normal wear, the other horribly blued, gouged, and finally broken/torn in half. My theory on this is that I somehow got some brake fluid on this one link's O ring, probably during an engine swap, which at that time required undoing the T connection from the main rear line to the two rear caliper lines, OR possibly from my std FC/Pinto clutch line dry break I utilized going to the m/c clutch slave. It leaks so I guess it's a "wet brake". That one O ring swelled up and finally came off, letting the factory installed lube come out, w/ predictable consequences. All the other links looked fine.

Daytona - No test day, won race, had O/A pole.

I'm calling that 6 weekends. My plan was to try to get 2 engines to last a very full year of 12 events. I got half way there! The well used engine proved quite capable at Mosport, besting the SCCA FB record as well as the quicker CASC F Libre (?) record as well, setting O/A pole also.

Hopefully this engine will allow me to run a full test day and weekend at WGI coming up in 2 weeks. Come to think of it, there's not really anything close to a full test day at WGI!

At the Sprints w/ the new engine I was experiencing some rather elevated coolant temps, seeing 230 in the race. Perhaps that was the death knell for this engine as it died a horrible death in the 2nd test day session at Mosport. Until we get this thing home and apart it's all speculation. At the moment, I'm calling it an anomally, allbeit a rather nasty anomally...

GC

[ghickman]

In my opinion the cause of some failures is repetitive "bumping" up to the rev limiter. I believe over time this hammers the rod bearings, stretches the rod bolts, then the rod bolt nuts simply fall off....then we know the rest.

I also know plenty of DSR guys that run wet sump with zero problems. I'm running wet sump and have had no issues.

I also think that some of the FB problems may be a result of high under hood temps. When we designed our pods we ducted part of the intake air into the engine bay to help flush out heat generated by the headers.

GH

[JerryH]

Coop,

Could that new engine (at the sprints) have needed some break-in time? That could account for some higher temps in the first few hours running time.

As far as cost goes, getting 10 weekends out of a Continental motor between overhauls usually ment some head freshening mid season. The winter (or pre runoff) overhaul cost was 3500 to 5500 depending on what was needed. The FV was the same schedule, but cost were a bit less (about 2500 to 3000 for the overhaul). I can't imagine anyone expecting to get more than 10 weekends out of a stock MC engine under these conditions - then you replace it with another one at 2500 - still a lot cheaper! Even at 5 weekends per engine, it's still no more expensive than FC - and don't forget, there's a new gearbox each time (FC gearbox overhaul every two or three seasons can run 2000 to 4000!).

If we get the oiling and cooling systems right, don't overrev them, and don't expect more than one season out of a motor, these problems should dissappear.

Just my opinion....

Jerry Hodges

[glenn cooper]

Doubtful, engine had a few miles on it, did not get new bearings or rings.
GC

[Wren]

I think some folks just like to beat the engine costs because they want to when in reality its probably not a problem considering the miles turn in our cars. I spend more on tires every two weekends than I do for a motor.

Exactly. If we can get these engines to last 8-10 weekends between freshenings/replacements, then we have done really well. A new FF engine is north of $16k and goes somewhere between 20 and 50 hours(opinions vary). This could be a cheap class for motors.

[RussMcB]

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that the cost is not really the issue, especially when compared to other formula car classes.

In my mind, the real world problem is the frequent occurances of engine changes and problems at the race track. It's heroic and inspiring to hear about crews getting a car to the grid after an engine change, but that is definitely not why I go racing.

I guess there are two things that will get us to a good point:
1) We get past the teething / new car aspect (cooling, oiling, etc.)
2) We can predict the life span and proactively plan for engine refreshes before they expire.

I agree with what someone said in an earlier post (forget who). It is a lot less painful to lose a motorcycle engine compared to engines in other classes. I've been buying engines for an average of $1,000 ea. It's not painless to hurt a cheap engine, but a heckuva lot less than FA, FC, FF, FV, etc.

[Richard Dziak]

One aspect on engine replacement is the cost.

I see some posters spending $1000 for an engine vs. $5000+ for a George Dean prepped new Suzuki engine.

What do the top national event drivers spend on replacement engines?

What do they expect for the price?

What is the real cost for a top motor vs. a used motor on Ebay?

What is the difference in quailty of a George Dean prepped motor vs. used Ebay motor?

Is it wise buying the EBay motor or spending the extra for a top notch George Dean or whomever motor?

I know what I spent for my new 2006 Suzuki GSXR prepped by George Dean. It was not $1000.00 or $2500.00...more like $5000+. The motor has outlasted what is written in these posts, and continues to run strong after 1200 miles with no recorded problems.

Matt Conrad sold a bunch of new Suzuki motors, and I know he could not peddle them out the door for no $1000 or $2500 each. Perhaps he can remind us all what the retail price was for a new Suzuki F1000 motor. It would be nice to hear from Lee Stohr on the costs or retail for the motors he installs in his Stohr F1000 cars.

It's hard for me to believe that $1000 motors are the average for these cars.

What is the average cost to refresh one of these F1000 motors when needed?

Lots of questions.

So what's your take on this subject?

[jjstecher]

Two motors both bone stock with no changes in hand. One was 1999 the other was 1500 from eBay. Now if you send it off to George which I will probably over the winter you get more HP and a through check over of the motor to give you confidence its going to last but that's it. Not like there are many ways to build HP out of these things in Stock form on top of what Suzuki gives us beyond cam timing changes, blueprinting and a really good dry sump.

[RussMcB]

It's hard for me to believe that $1000 motors are the average for these cars.

In my post I was referring to *my* average cost, which I know is much less than the average FB racer. Because of the amount I can afford to spend on racing, I look for killer deals on ebay, craigs list, motorcycle forums, etc.

While it is easy to say everyone should send their engine to GDRE to make sure it's top notch, that just isn't an option for some people. To be honest, I can't understand how anyone could even plunk down the big bucks for a new race car, but that just shows the variety of characters you'll find in FB. I may have no business trying to race in this class, but it's too enticing. :-).

[Wren]

I think to have George replace everything in a motor(rods, pistons, crank, bearings, valves) goes a little over $2k. No other class is even close to that price to replace comparable bits.

George told us to expect about 3hp from blueprinting. A good out-of-the-bike motor should last as long, then be sent back to George.

[Richard Dziak]

Russ McB wrote:

"To be honest, I can't understand how anyone could even plunk down the big bucks for a new race car, but that just shows the variety of characters you'll find in FB."

I can understand his thoughts, and I am one of the guys who did just that......$ 45,000 for the new custom built Phoenix. Why?

I did not have the major mechanical abilty to convert my 1995 Van Diemen FC.....I got a good price for the (FC) exactly what I paid for it after 2 years of owning it. There was no lost time on the track by spending endless hours in the garage after working a full time job. The Phoenix was brand new, all new parts, state of the art technology and Matt Conrad was there to answer any questions and made the whole process easy. Dustin Wright the engineer designed a wonderful car and built a wondeful car.....and most of all I could afford it.

I certainly give lots of credit to those who have converted or started fresh from the ground up. Some of us just don't have the abilty to build high performance race cars. My main concern was safety, and I got that with the Phoenix.

I ask many questions here for the input and ApexSpeed is the best source of information from many owner/drivers of the F1000 cars.

What I don't want to do, is be the victim of failed engines, bented body work, and continuous repairs and costs. I have maintained the car expertly myself. There has been no need for engine repair, and yet I have over 1200 miles on the engine. I baby the car, but drive it well, but not well enough to compete with the National racers like Cooper, Jaremko, Strecher, and others. At age 57 I know my limits for speed and level of fear.

I believe that I have proven for the owner/driver that wants a good time, the thrill of racing and have the best of the best without tearing up the car, can be done.

The point of my posts and comments on this thread is that for those who want to win championships, and break track records there has to be a high price to pay for those results. The National drivers must push themself physically, mentally and financially to be the top drivers. Those that are not top drivers (regional), just don't have to push as hard in these issues. That's me.

There is plenty of room for the hard driven national racers in this class as well as guys like myself and others who want to own a race car and have fun on the track. In all races there is someone who finishes in front (1st, 2nd or 3rd) and someone who finishes in the rear (last). Thats evident in F1, Indy and our F1000.

This class needs guys like Cooper, Jaremko, Strecher, Obendrof etc to attract new drivers. But it also needs guys like Dziak, McBride and others who enjoy the sport, and just want to be a part of it and enjoy the thrill of racing.

Russ McB, don't quit, you own a car that many other men would love to own. You put many hard hours into your project, and I can tell from your participation and knowledge here on ApexSpeed that you love the sport and F1000.

In this class there is room for every type of driver. While I have an expensive car, I try to control costs when I can. If I had to refresh motors or replace them every 8 weekends, I couldn't afford to keep the Phoenix. I am sure this is the same with the Stohr F1000 owners. I am sure that there are owners that keep there Stohrs in mint condition and have no interest in breaking motors or bending bodywork.

It's a great class built for many types of owner/drivers. We need to keep it that way.

[Northwind]

Richard,

To put things in perspective, here is my take on the F-1000 class and current conversion. Please don't forget I have the ability to do my own work and fabrication. I will have less than half of $45,000 into my Novak conversion (with 08 low mile Suzuki) and have a car that is proven to be consistently on the pointy end of national races. The difference $22,000. Thats about 8 low mile engines to figure out how to go 1200 miles

Thats the beauty of this class. The other thing about this class was proven at the Junesprints (parity) Four different chassis all within .3 seconds of each other on the grid followed by probably the best race of the weekend. The race finish would have been closer for MJ if Coop wouldn't have executed driving in lapped traffic to perfection.

[RussMcB]

This class needs guys like Cooper, Jaremko, Strecher, Obendrof etc to attract new drivers. But it also needs guys like Dziak, McBride and others who enjoy the sport, and just want to be a part of it and enjoy the thrill of racing.

Richard, I'm sure you meant well, but please don't assume budget restraints equal a lack of competitive desire. I probably don't have the assertiveness of those front runners, but when I'm on the track it's all about beating competitors. It's not about the enjoyment of just driving on a race track.

Please don't take offense, but your attitude about racing, even at the regional level, seems very much in the minority, at least in my experience. Don't get me wrong - enjoyment is the most important thing, and everyone has their own expectations and goals. I do not fault your attitude at all. In fact, I envy it. Believe me, there have been many times when I wish I could be happy when I'm mid pack or slow, but that's not possible with current mental make up. Even knowing my skills, car, tires, etc. are not top notch, it bugs the **** out of me to have lap times way off Coop and others. Maybe I'll be comfortable with that later in life (if I'm lucky).

[Richard Dziak]

Russ wrote:

"I do not fault your attitude at all. In fact, I envy it. Believe me, there have been many times when I wish I could be happy when I'm mid pack or slow, but that's not possible with current mental make up. Even knowing my skills, car, tires, etc. are not top notch, it bugs the **** out of me to have lap times way off Coop and others."

Your mental make up is not unusal in any competitive sport. It is only natural that we all want to excel and be the best as a human species.

I know what my limits are and always challenge them personally, but I have come to realization that there are so many driver/racers that are better than myself, and I just have to live with that knowledge. So. I enjoy and do the best I can. If I can do better than them, I am a happy racer.

Keep up the good job, Russ...your comments are appreciated. I know you love the sport.

[jjstecher]

So back to the topic at hand in the Mosport race thread engine failures. I am curious at some of the comments about dropping valves being common. One thing I know caused this on a few drag engines back in the day was running the motor to lean. I run my fuel pressure at around 47psi so I know I am running the motor a little richer than it should be but I did it to counter what I figured would be increased head and combustion chamber temperatures. Not sure what others think but I would be curious to hear what those that are dropping valves are running for FP.

To speak to another comment about how hot the engine comparments get in these things because they are so tightly packaged I have burned through jethot's extreme sterling coating on my headers in 2 weekends this year. This is with running air from the side pod directly onto the headers.

[RussMcB]

I don't know of anyone else who's dropped a valve besides me. I wasn't thinking it was "common".

In my case it was a used 2005 Kawasaki engine with unknown history. Ebay seller said low mileage, but who knows. AFAIK, the engine had never been worked on.

My dropped valve happened at a Rd Atl national race this Spring. I can't remember if George Dean was there, or if I talked with him later on the phone, when he made the comment that "it happens". It was not one of his engines. I think the gist of the conversation was me asking him if there is anything I should do to prevent it from happening in future engines. I think the answer was, not really. Maybe keep revs low and off the limiter.

Regarding header coating: Same experience here. My coating seems to be nothing like new any more.

[captaineddie1975]

[quote=jjstecher;217921]One thing I know caused this on a few drag engines back in the day was running the motor to lean. I run my fuel pressure at around 47psi so I know I am running the motor a little richer than it should be but I did it to counter what I figured would be increased head and combustion chamber temperatures.

Are you sure about that 47psi figure. I remember making sure my big block Camaro Super Stock had 7-8lbs going across the finish line.

[tombeattie]

So back to the topic at hand in the Mosport race thread engine failures. I am curious at some of the comments about dropping valves being common. One thing I know caused this on a few drag engines back in the day was running the motor to lean. I run my fuel pressure at around 47psi so I know I am running the motor a little richer than it should be but I did it to counter what I figured would be increased head and combustion chamber temperatures. Not sure what others think but I would be curious to hear what those that are dropping valves are running for FP.

I haven't heard of dropped valves being common either, but it sure has been common to me lately. I have had this happen in my last two weekends on two different motors.I run my FP at 43psi but a have a slightly rich map loaded in the PC.

My first failure happen on a new 0 mile motor that I ran trouble free for 4 weekends and 4 test days, accumulating over 1200 race miles. The engine died in the first session at a Daytona test day during the cool down lap at about 8000 RPM. I use a 12,500 shift point and my data showed 12,800 max revs on up-shifts and one 13,400 rev spike on a down-shift. It appears that an exhaust valve spit a shim and then broke the retainer.

The second failure happened on a used "low milage" motor on the second session of the my next event. Autopsy shows that in intake cam sprocket slipped a bit on the cam causing interference and one broken valve with all other intake valves kissing the rest of the pistons.

I beleive it is more than just a coincidence that both of my failures happened just after I installed a Flatshifter system. I know others are using a type of flatshifter too but am not sure how many have the feature of clutchless downshifting with autoblip. Both of my failures occured as I was getting my system tuned in on the downshifting autoblip. While the system did seem to work fairly smoothly there were a few times that the downshifts were abrupt enough that the slipper clutch was kicking in. I think that this led to a lot more over-rev situations than what I thought because you can't hear the rev limiter kick in and the rev spikes on my data may have been smoothed over since my data system was only sampling at 10Hz. Anyway,I think changing my shifting techniques may be at the root of my problem and I plan to go back to my normal clutching and heal-toe that has served me pretty well in the past.

FWIW my oil temp varies from 205-230 ( measure at the cooler inlet) and water from 165-185 (measured at the top of the rad) as the ambient goes from 65F to 95F. Iv'e never had any problems with the bottom end of the motor(knock on wood).

I would be very interested in hearing from anyone else about dropped valves.

Thanks,


Tom

[captaineddie1975]

Disregard my elderly ramblings. I forgot that you guys are running fuel injection and revving the engine to at least twice what I used for RPM back in 70.

[jjstecher]

Tom some one more knowledgable can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that running a rich map in the PCIII doesn't do crap for you if you aren't running enough FP to keep the injectors fed.

CaptainEddie you're forgive for the elderly comment. The 47 is on the bike motor...yes 7-8psi was common the carbed BB and SBs.

[tombeattie]

Tom some one more knowledgable can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that running a rich map in the PCIII doesn't do crap for you if you aren't running enough FP to keep the injectors fed.

True, but the appearance of my plugs and the deposits on the valves and pistons do not show any indication that I had been running lean. It looked a tad rich to me if anything.

Also, I run a manual cam chain tensioner because of the potential problems I have heard about with the stock tensioner backing off causing the cam chain to jump a tooth.

Tom