Mosport National

[RobLav]

I'm going. I see Jeremy Hill is signed up and Coop says he's going. Anyone else?

[Roux]

Rob,

I gather the shakedown on the car is going well. Did you guys get in a dry race at Limerock and what kind of laptimes were you running assuming it was dry?
Cheers


Steve

[RobLav]

Hey Steve,

I instructed at the school Friday - got 2.5 hours of track time. Car ran wonderfully - well balanced, responsive, and a lot more grip / downforce than in the FC's. My neck was killing me... so between the rain, my neck, and a diffuser that broke it's mounts because of the downforce, I decided to head home Friday night.

I don't know lap times... felt reasonably quick. Hit 140 MPH on the straight. There was still at least 2 seconds per lap left though since I was not using nearly the available grip on the uphill and West Bend. I also ran out of revs on the front straight - so will gear it up another front sprocket tooth for the National there.

[JEREMY HILL]

glad you are coming rob, let me know if i can help with anything, coop is on his way, how about the rest of you fb guys? cheers, jeremy

[RobLav]

Never been there and no clue how to drive the track. Map looks fast. I'll gear for 150.

Moss corner looks like LRP Big Bend. Other corners look quite fast given sufficient downforce.

How's the paddock? FB guys paddock nearby?

[JEREMY HILL]

rob, the 'straight' is quite steep so top speed is closer to 140-145 mph depending on downforce set-up, i will probably be in the padock inside turn one, watch the video matt inge just posted, he got it right on his first visit, regards, jeremy

[Purple Frog]

Rob,

"Moss corner looks like LRP Big Bend."

It would only look like Big Bend from about 25,000 ft above.
Think roller coaster. Big Altitude change.

[SOseth]

Rob,

"Moss corner looks like LRP Big Bend."

It would only look like Big Bend from about 25,000 ft above.
Think roller coaster. Big Altitude change.

And a ****load tighter

[problemchild]

Treat Moss corner (5a and 5b) like 6 & 7 at Road Atlanta and you will do fine. Although you need to slow down more at Mosport, the rhythm is the same. Most importantly, separating the two segments by settling the car in between, is absolutely necassary.

[glenn cooper]

Coop driving -Ana on keyboard. Glenn's fresh Sprints motor eats itself on test day, barely get old crusty spare installed in time for Q2. Coop and Jeremy both circulating at under lap record pace(123ish held by Hill), with Coop just besting Hill by a half sec with a 1:19.4

Sunday race rain starts 2 races prior to ours in varying degrees from spitting to pouring. On thrid call to grid it actually looks like its clearing somewhat and we decide to put on the Inters. Upon arrival at grid we're the only ones not on full rains. Green flag drops and it's a roller coaster ride to hell from first to DFL in about a lap as full on survival mode is engaged. No grip and Watkins Glen two week away means mindless circulation for 50 miles dodging the errant spinners.

Everything gets loaded up in one piece and treated to an in-trialer strip/dry/WD40bath hopefully insuring that in two weeks time whne the rear ramp door is dropped there won't be a pile of rust. Congrats to Jemery who only lapped me twice. Rob, where were you?

P.S. Many thanks to my old friend Arpad from Kitchener, ON without who's help finishing up the enjine swap I'da never made Q2.

P.S.S. Also many thanks to new friend Gary Shortt for going out of his way to assit on a multitue of matters! Anyone needing race gear by Leaf- he's your man, I;ll hook you up.

[RobLav]

Couldn't go - have a major work project due tomorrow. Kinda glad I missed the rain.

Too bad about the engine Coop. Are you coming to the LRP National 31 July?

[JEREMY HILL]

congrats to coop for beating my casc race record of 1.19.8 in qual, we both had issues in qual that kept us from turning the 1.18s we felt we would see in the race had it been dry, now we will have to continue the challenge at watkins glen, hopefully some one will join us..... btw the drive of the race was by mike odonovich, i tried to hold him off but didnt want to throw away the fb win jeremy hill fb #00

[Rick Ross]

Coop -

Sorry to hear about the Mosport problems. How many miles were on the blown motor?

[glenn cooper]

Not many! 65 miles of the race, and a handful of testday and Q2 laps, a few at Mosport, maybe 150??
When we return from WGI, I'll strip thta B---- and find out what went, and why...
GC

[RussMcB]

Sorry to hear about the new woes, Glenn.

I wonder if we need to start a database of failures and look for trends.

Just my personal experience (not too applicable since there are no other Kawasaki powered FB cars): My '04 had a known manufacturer design problem with the generator, an '05 dropped a valve (GDRE says "that happens"), and my other problems were explainable due to things I did and could have avoided (IOW, not something I could blame on someone else or a part).

It really doesn't seem right that so many engines are expiring during every race weekend. The DSR guys have decent reliability, right?

[RobLav]

I still think the issue is dry sump and oil cooling. We're turning more G's than an FC.

[Rick Ross]

The engine failure rates that you guys are experiencing are very, very high.....there must be an explanation. There are lots of successful bike engine classes in England, both open-wheel and sports racers. Have you considered contacting some of the English teams and/or manufacturers for input? Perhaps they run the engines at reduced revs and/or power? Maybe they have discovered some oil system tricks?

[Purple Frog]

A near 50% engine failure rate of entries in national events since the Phoenix National in January does not bode well for making the class attractive for growth. Everybody is going to have to put their heads together and find a solution.

[RussMcB]

I still think the issue is dry sump and oil cooling. We're turning more G's than an FC.

The DSR cars have very high G forces, but they have an easier job of cooling oil and water compared to our narrow cars.

They might benefit from better, non stock parts, but I'm not sure if stock parts are the biggest cause of most FB engine problems.

My hunch is insufficient oiling or cooling, too, but are we really doing such a worse job compared to the DSR guys and other established bike powered racers?

[Mike B]

Not many! 65 miles of the race, and a handful of testday and Q2 laps, a few at Mosport, maybe 150??
When we return from WGI, I'll strip thta B---- and find out what went, and why...
GC

Glenn,
Was that a brand-new engine or newly rebuilt? I hope you'll post your findings here so everyone with Suzuki engines can learn from the failures.

Good luck at WGI.

[Brands]

I'll e-mail a few friends back in the UK about the 07/08 Suzuki motors. I know that the 05/06 motors like mine run for ever back home with a wet oil pan. I havn't done too many miles in my car but (knock on wood) I've had no problems at all. Highest water temp last year at Barber was 180 and oil temp 230 which is lower I think than others are running? I wonder if the 07/08 motor is a little more fragile with the extra bhp?

[Rick Ross]

Ben,

Are the UK club motors stock, or do the rules allow improved bearings, pistons, etc.?

[James Michael]

To give some info, I blew my motor at Road America last week. It was a 2006 motor - it had 2 weekends in 2007, 5 in 2008, and 4 in 2009 with a few test days as well. In 2007 I was having very high water temps, but solved that for 08 and 09. I was usually between 200-205F for water and 240F or so for oil. Before the engine blew, I believe my water temp was about 205F. I think one of my rod bolts broke but hope to have it out of my car this weekend. There's a nice hole in the front of my block!

Hope that helps.

James

[HastyHorn]

I may be preaching to the Choir but broken rod bolts don't mean that the rod bolts are the problem. Finding the rod bearings in good shape in the remaining two halves may help support rod/bolt failure but when the rod bearings begin to go and the clearance reaches gigantic proportions then the rod bolts are getting hammered from both ends and they begin to elongate. Additionally the tension on the rod bolt/nuts (once they begin to stretch under the hammering) goes to very loose. It is not uncommon to find rod nuts lying loose on at the bottom of the engine...but they became loose as a consequence of the stretched bolts which became stretched because of the additional clearance of the failing rod bearings.

Appearance and condition of the rod bearings and the main bearings is the best evidence of how and why the failure is occurring.

Hasty Horn

[RussMcB]

Hope that helps.

James

Yes, it does. Glad you posted. Sounds like you got some decent mileage out of your engine.

Next time, rebuild it right before you have a problem. :-).

Hasty, good info, too. Thanks for those thoughts.

[James Michael]

Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at those areas when I get the engine apart.
James

[Richard Dziak]

The problem of blowen F1000 engines has been a subject many times here on AlexSpeed. As you all know I own one of the first original Phoenix F1K.07's built with a new George Dean prepped 2006 Suzuki engine. The engine has a dry sump with baffle plates in the oil pan. I understand the pan was designed by George Dean. When I first got the car I made a personal call to George Dean. He stated that if I did not torture the engine and beat it to death, the engine would last a long time. After recording 1200+ miles on the engine, I still have not recorded one problem. The engine has never been pushed to the limits.

I can only imagine those racers who drive the national events and want to have the first place finishes have to push these engines to the limit. Breaking speed and time records will also require pushing these engines to the limit also. I believe that most engine failures are those in national events rather than regional events, where the regional drivers just don't push the limits of the engines. Yes, I watch all temps, oil and water, make sure that water levels are topped out and make sure there is always clean oil and the oil levels topped out exactly as George Dean recommended. The car has a water cooler on one of the sidepods and a large oil cooler in the other sidepod. This was an inovation of Dustin Wright the design engineer which we all know now. While we talk of a low cost class, it seems that damaged or blowen engines (many of which we have all heard of here) can run costs up tremendously.

There has to be a price paid for the victories and track records, and that appears the frustration and costs of blowen engines. It appears that the costs can be high.

While I am an admitted Regional racer, and record slower track times, the engine has held up well. If your going to be the National racer and want those top finishes and track records, expect to bust and burn these engines. They can only take so much. I am sure we will find that they broke for various reasons, and doubt that we will be able to find any one specific reason why they break other pushing them to the limits. Those national racers who want to be number 1, will have to live with broken and blowen engines. Those racers who are regional racers, who are out for fun of the sport, thrill and drive slower times, will most likely be the racers who record no problems and low costs.

So pick your position of national or regional events, and if national.....be prepared to pay the price of replacing engines that are ultimately pushed to the limits or beyond of what these engines can take.

This is strictly my opinion. It would be great to know the amount of engine failures of regional vs. the top national event drivers. My bet, the regional drivers engines record much less failures, because we are out for the fun. It's just not worth the cost or time to blow motors to be number 1 for a $20.00 trophy or bragging rights.

[jjstecher]

Personally I think its temps and stupid mistakes that are causing the failures. I am curious to know what the majority of the narrow bodied FB's run for water and oil temps versus the bigger Firmans and Stohrs. How many other failures were because of forgetting to check the oil levels, change the filter, make sure the oil cap was safety wired etc. I know everyone I have destroyed has been because of one of those things.

The motors eventually are going to blow (like James's case) cause we beat the crap out of them but I think if everyone was running temps in the 200 water 240-250 oil the life spans would be a lot higher. Ah yes but then you give up your aero advantage...

[Richard Dziak]

John S:

My Phoenix F1K.07 w/ new George Dean prepped 2006 new Suzuki....

Consistenly runs between 180-220 water & 220-240 oil temps.

Allot depends upon outside temps.

I also.... ALWAYS start the engine.....bring water temps up to 180..... then shut off engine 10 minutes before I enter the grid. I was told from an engine rebuilder that this method will reduce strain on any bearings if this is done before every time you put the car on the track. It's like preheating an oven. Otherwise lots of racers enter the track on a cold engine, bringing the cold engine up to max revs...thus placing stress on vital components within the motor vs. entering the track with an already hot engine.

[Wren]

There has to be a price paid for the victories and track records, and that appears the frustration and costs of blowen engines. It appears that the costs can be high.
...

So pick your position of national or regional events, and if national.....be prepared to pay the price of replacing engines that are ultimately pushed to the limits or beyond of what these engines can take.

I do not believe this to be true. We just need to figure out what it is going to take to make these engines survive. I am also a believer that it is all about oil temp, oil pressure, and revs.

From conversations with Coop, I believe that he is pretty conservative with the revs and his oil temp and pressure are pretty good, so I am really interested to see if he can find a reason for this one eating itself. This problem seems to be affecting people with wet sump engines and dry sump engines.

James seems to have gotten a lot of good use out of his engine before it went. I know that I could not have gone that many weekends on a vee engine without at least doing the head and probably the whole engine by then.

If driving these cars hard is going to result in constantly blown motors, my opinion is that we can write this class off now. I do believe that we are going to figure out how to make these motors last.

This is strictly my opinion. It would be great to know the amount of engine failures of regional vs. the top national event drivers. My bet, the regional drivers engines record much less failures, because we are out for the fun. It's just not worth the cost or time to blow motors to be number 1 for a $20.00 trophy or bragging rights.

I quit racing because I couldn't afford to win, not because I couldn't afford to go out there and drive around. A lot of people aren't going to be happy just going out and driving fast, we can do that in our street cars at HPDEs.

Personally I think its temps and stupid mistakes that are causing the failures. I am curious to know what the majority of the narrow bodied FB's run for water and oil temps versus the bigger Firmans and Stohrs. How many other failures were because of forgetting to check the oil levels, change the filter, make sure the oil cap was safety wired etc. I know everyone I have destroyed has been because of one of those things.

The motors eventually are going to blow (like Jame's case) cause we beat the crap out of them but I think if everyone was running temps in the 200 water 240-250 oil the life spans would be a lot higher. Ah yes but then you give up your aero advantage...

Are those temps coming out of the engine or going in?

I think the Citation is one of the narrower cars out there as a converted FC design with FC legal bodywork. At Road America our water temps were around 190 and may have finally run up to 200 during the race. We are measuring oil temp on the hot side of the engine(coming out of the engine and before the cooler) and were around 230 all week but finally saw 240 during the race. George Dean thinks we are giving up power with temps that low and we should be looking for around 240 going in to the engine. We are going to see how it does in Savannah before declaring that everything is ok. Fixing the oil pickup issue that allowed us to put the proper amount of oil into the engine was a big step in bringing temps down. We had been overfilling it in hopes of keeping the oil pickup covered and that was a guarantee of high temps as the crank beat up the oil constantly.

That is with a 2 row water radiator in one sidepod and a smaller Setrab cooler in the other sidepod. The Setrab cooler is only about 75% of the size of the water cooler, so a larger oil cooler could be put in the same size sidepod.

I know that we have replaced a motor already, but after fixing the stock Suzuki wiring that was the actual cause of our problems, we no longer believe that motor is bad. I think Brandon will take a quick look at the bearings and then declare it to be a good spare again. I personally would feel good about putting it back in the car right now.

What I would like to get a handle on is how long one of these engines is going to hold up before it needs to go back to George for a refresh. 6 weekends? 1000 miles?

[Wren]

John S:

My Phoenix F1K.07 w/ new George Dean prepped 2006 new Suzuki....

Consistenly runs between 180-220 water & 220-240 oil temps.

Is that into or out of the engine?

[jjstecher]

So because i was curious I opened up all my old data files. 07GSXR. All my water temps are in the radiator right at entry and all my oil temps are at the entry to the cooler right off the engine. All temps are average of the last 6 laps of the race.

08 racing season data:
BIR: ambient 68 oil: 235 water: 190
RA: ambient 78 oil: 250 water: 200
RA: ambient 70 oil: 245 water: 195
RA: ambient 85 oil: 252 water: 205
Autobahn: ambient 87 oil: 245 water 200

09 racing season:
BHF: ambient 55 oil: 230 water: 185
RA: ambient 70 oil: 240 water 195
RA: ambient 75 oil: 250 water 205

Road America puts a ton of stress on the motors as your WOT probably 80% of the lap if not more. While you get a good deal of cooling on the straights the second you duck in behind someone to draft your up. Shorter courses with less WOT seem to have lower temps in my historical data.

With consideration of rev's I turn my motor last year to 12500 for the shift lights but have consistently in the data seen that I normally am in the 13000 range at least a few times over the course of the race. Anyone that knows me knows I don't baby the car. :P

[Wren]

So your one engine has already done 8 weekends? How long do you plan to run on it?

I think getting 8 weekends out of a relatively cheap engine/transmission combo is pretty good start. I think the rebuilds are pretty economical as well and we can realistically hope to see engine/gearbox costs on the order of $100/weekend or less pretty soon which seems to me to be quite good considering where the class falls between FC and FA. I was figuring almost that much to run a FV.

I think that everyone needs to really work as group to share info on making these engines last. It is in everyone's best interest.

[Richard Dziak]

Wren:

I can't honestly tell if the water temp is before or after. Perhaps Dustin over at Phoenix will see this thread and chime in since he built the car.

I am sure that I am one of the racers that baby's his F1000 car. I know my rev limiter is set for 11,500 rpm.

I was told that there is very little.... if any advantage to running the engine to 12,500 or 13,000 rpms. There is a drop off/fall off point somewhere for HP, but not sure where. I am sure George Dean could tell us where the max HP is for RPM limits. If you don't get any more HP, why over rev the engine and put undue stress on the inside components? George did dyno my motor and I am not sure where the peak output was vs RPM limits. I have the data, but it is not readily available at the time of this post.

[Purple Frog]

I was talking over dinner recently with Sean O'Connell (Carnut169). Remember Sean? One of the founding fathers of F1000. First ever FB national winner.

Sean retired from F1000 because of the cost of engines, and the uncertainty of engine escalation becoming "the engine of the month" scenerio. Sean mentioned he thought the solution was an engine rule change that would allow beefier racing parts where needed. He pointed to the better lifespans of DSR engines. Figuring since all the FB front runners already have "built" engines, it wouldn't cost that much more to build them stronger.

It was an interesting conversation with one who had truly paid the dues.

Sean did say the longest life he got out of his engines was when he just fooled around at regionals, or when he was the only FB entry in a national. Once he had to go 30+ minutes hard the lifespan dropped.

[RobLav]

I have 3 hours on my 06 Yamaha dry sump. Water temps leaving the engine are consistent 171F.

2 radiators in wider sidepods than FC and 2 oil/water heat exchangers. No idea of oil temps. I rev this to 13K. This engine likes to rev - has 5 valve head. Power drops off rapidly after 13K.

[Wren]

Sean retired from F1000 because of the cost of engines, and the uncertainty of engine escalation becoming "the engine of the month" scenerio. Sean mentioned he thought the solution was an engine rule change that would allow beefier racing parts where needed. He pointed to the better lifespans of DSR engines. Figuring since all the FB front runners already have "built" engines, it wouldn't cost that much more to build them stronger.

This is already a cheap engine/trans package and I think it is going to take just a little bit more time and the engine costs will be some of the cheapest in open wheel racing. I can't really believe that anyone ever expected a class that is faster than FC to be cheaper than FV, especially with the rules as wide open as they are for bodywork, aero, and wheels.

As for the "engine of the month," it hasn't materialized yet and doesn't seem to be imminent. The pointy end of the grid is on 07-08 GSXR motors. I think we need to understand why the motors are popping before making rules changes. Built motors are not going to stand up to being overreved, starved for oil, or cooked either. I still think we are seeing teething problems from solving a new design problem instead of a problem endemic to using motorcycle engines. Other classes/series are able to make them live, we should be able to make them live.

I am very interested in Coop's post mortem on his engine as he has previously been very successful with keeping his engines alive. I think the only one he had to pull early previously was because his dry sump pump ate itself and that can't be blamed on motorcycle engines. His temps and pressures were very good also if memory serves.

[Richard Dziak]

Wren wrote: "What I would like to get a handle on is how long one of these engines is going to hold up before it needs to go back to George for a refresh. 6 weekends? 1000 miles? "

I would have to think that if these engines need to be refreshed every 1000 miles, the class will not be cost effective and may have limited participation over the long haul.

Purple Frog provided some good insite from a good/proven racer (Sean O) with what I feel was sincere and interesting comments.

Certainly motorcycle owners who own the GSXR 1000 bikes don't have the motors refreshed every 1000 hours. But I don't believe that they beat them up or stress the motors as hard as some F1000 racers due. It would seem to me, in order to break track records and win races, the motors must be pushed to the edge of their workable limits.

As I stated, if your the racer who wants to fall into the category of being first and breaking records you best be prepared for the possible breaks, burns and overall costs for engine replacement. Carnut's comments of driving the regionals vs. hard driving national events is a testimonial to my own comments above.

Personally if I have to rebuild or replace my engine in my Phoenix every 1000 miles or 6 weekends, I would sell the car immediately. So far 20 months of ownership ....14 regional events, 6 to 8 open track days, and 2 days with a non SCCA group racing in Albuquerque, NM. What's great about this, no recorded problems, 2 regional championships (AZ region) (RMD Division), 2 track records set, one already broken.

Doesn't matter to me, personally about wiinning. I have stated that in many posts. I still do what others want to do, (own F1000 Formula race car) and have a beautiful F1000 race car that provides so much fun, thrill, and competition, but at a lower level than national race events. If you drive these cars hard, then I think you need "deep pockets" for engine repairs, body work, tires etc.

It would be nice to know what racers like Glenn Cooper and others spend on an annual basis to run the national races. That includes travel, gas, car repairs and everything related.

What was the average cost for those that attended the June Sprints in overall costs to make that event?

At this point, two racers who owned cars and are active here on ApexSpeed have stepped forward to discuss costs and why they have left the class or have considered selling their cars. That is Russ McB and now Sean O. I really give them alot of credit for being honest and sincere with their past experiences. The intent of this class was never intended to be a "deep pockets" class. But in any sport, in order to be the best, you have to pay the price somewhere, somehow.

As a regional racer I get all the enjoyment and thrill that one would ever get from my car. The Phoenix is in mint condition, even after all the events that I have entered. To me a regional championship is just as good as a national. Your pocket book and deep pockets will ultimatley dictate what type of racer you will be.

I support all racers Regional or National, but each racer needs to understand the possible costs for victory and track records. We must remember at these levels we get nothing in monetary return for regional or national victories. This is not a cost effective sport. It is a sport that you must be able to have lots of disposable income.

If there was specific problem with these engines causing them to blow out, Suzuki and all their R & D would have the problem solved. I have not seen any reported problems like this with motorcycle drivers, but they also don't constantly push these little engines to the extremes like race car drivers do or will.

I would have to think there are many variables that cause these engines in F1000 cars to blow. not one specific issue.

Lets see, if possible....what can be determined why these racers are blowing up engines. My guess, ....driving them constantly to the maxium limits.

I am not a mechanic, so my posts are just opinion, but believe they do make sense.

Time will tell.

[Wright D]

Richard,
Your temperatures are measured before the coolers; the hot side.


I have been involved in, manufacturing and racing of several types of motorcycle powered cars including, 4 years in FSAE, three years with Peter D building Dwarf cars, Mod Lites, and Mini sprints, as well as consulting work for several bike powered dun buggy manufactures. In the world of dirt circle track racing it is not uncommon for a Mini sprint or Mod Lite to go the entire race distance at wide open throttle. All of these folks have been able to figure out how to make the motors last, so I think that we can too. Granted, circle track cars only have to deal with G loads in one direction, but the DSR/CSR pans and/or dry sump systems seem to be able to handle road racing so they should work for us too.

It seems to be pretty easy. Keep them cool and make sure the oil pressure is consistent. If you do that then the motors last a LONG time.

The motor in the factory Phoenix F1K.07 did 14 races without a problem before we had George rebuild the motor. That car has always been driven 10/10ths. At one point the Factory F1k.07 was a rental, and got beat up and abused as a rentals tend to; including missed shifts and over revs. Yet it survived. In fact that same motor came straight out of the F1K.07 and went right into the brand new F1K.09 and ran two more races, all without a rebuild!

Could be that us F1000 guys are not doing a good enough job with air flow over the coolers, or the coolers may be too small. Could just be that a large group of us are all getting to know these motors and their particular nuances.

Keepem' cool, try not to bounce off the hard limiter too much, and make sure your oil pressure is constantly high.

[VehDyn]

So your one engine has already done 8 weekends? How long do you plan to run on it?

I think getting 8 weekends out of a relatively cheap engine/transmission combo is pretty good start.

I think this is a critical point. Because of the lower cost of the engine and trans combo, are people just running to failure and then replace? What kind of intervals are the pinto guys running between freshenings of engine and/or transmission? That is a real question as i dont know anything about pinto motors.

There may be something to the beefed up parts concept in DSR. Jaremko ran that same R1 for years and won championships. Mark, how often did you refresh?

Thanks.