Fuel

[Matt Conrad]

What fuel is everyone using in their FB's?

I've always run VP MS98 as it is fairly inexpensive and provides 96 Octane...plenty for a stock GSXR. Plus, I can mix it and use it in my TAG Kart.

The impetus for my question is because I've heard rumors of some F1000 competitors using exotic fuels (like C44, MR9, etc) which I'm told make more HP...much more. I used to know some FC guys running the C44 but can't remember what happened when everyone started complaining about it.

My questions are....

1. Are these fuels legal in SCCA? In FB?
2. Do they really make more HP? VP says MR9 makes 8% more vs. pump gas!
3. Is paying $25/gallon for fuel really in the spirit of the F1000 concept?

Look forward to everyone's comments.

Matt Conrad

[kmt63]

during scca races you must run the track provided race gas.110 leaded.

[Richard Dziak]

I own a Phoenix F1000 F1K.07 and have used only pump gas.

Yes, pump gas usually 93 Octane. I buy the highest octane available were I race. Most states only sell 93 octane.

Some states offer pure octane pump gas, while other states have a mix of 90% octane and 10% ethanol.

I have never had any problems.

These are stock motorcycle engines and see no reason to pay for high premium race fuel. The engine has run flawlessly since taking ownership of the car.

There is no need or SCCA requirement to use what is sold at the track (110 leaded).
110 leaded is usually sold as AV Gas...used in aviation applications. AV Gas usually sells for about $4.00 + per gallon.

Regular pump gas 93 octane here in New Mexico is priced at about $2.49 per gallon as of today.

I have never heard of that after racing with the SCCA over the last 7 years, about using track fuel.

[DanW]

Matt,

I have some light reading available for you.

I tried sending you an email on your listed email address in your profile, but it bounced. Let me know where I can send you the info.

Basic fuel explanation, but two stroke kart oriented:

http://www.kartweb.com/TechArt/Fuel/fuel_summary.htm



Regards,
Dan Wise

[VehDyn]

I run the track fuel. Its the 110. I seem to remember that is what George ran it on the dyno and said it would run cooler. I could be wrong on that one though.

Matt, can't you usually tell when someone is using those fuels (smell, eyes burning)?

Ken

[Dave Gomberg]

Matt:

I can't comment on whether or not C44 (or anything else) will make a difference in a stock one liter bike engine. But, KMT63 has it all wrong about the fuel rule for F1000. You may use any fuel that passes the dielectric constant requirement and contains no prohibited substances (see GCR 9.3.25) - your choice leaded or not (GCR 9.1.1.H.6.A, page 231). The only exception is at the Runoffs where everyone is required to use track fuel.

Dave

[Daryl DeArman]

DO exotic fuel blends make more power? Yes. How much more and at what cost and does it make sense to use them? That is a lengthy debate.

Is it in "the spirit" in any class ? I guess that is up for the participants in that class to decide. Personally, I find it silly to put any more money in prep or go fast goodies (especially highly consumable ones) than is required to win. If your competitors aren't using them, you won't need to either. Perhaps a gentlemen's agreement is in order. It only takes one to raise the bar and someone else to feel they need "x" to beat them--soon you have an arms race.

I don't think it is any more consumable or expensive per lap than a set of sticker tires. In fact, put the delta at $40/gal. How many gallons does the FB burn in a weekend? How much different is that than going through a single set of tires? Now if we are talking about GT1 cars, that is a different stor

[Matt Conrad]

So besides taking a sample to the tester how do you determine if a fuel will meet the Dielectric test?

Here's the details from VP's website for several fuels....

MS98, Leaded, 96 Octane, Oxygenated-?, Specific Gravity .715 @ 60F
VP110, Leaded, 107 Octane, Oxygenated-No, Specific Gravity .720-.735 @ 60F
C44, Leaded, 99 Octane, Oxygenated-No, Specific Gravity .676 @ 60F
MR9, Leaded, 87 Octane, Oxygenated-Yes, Specific Gravity .718 @ 60F

I had always been told that the use of oxygenated fuels was prohibited, but isn't pump gas oxygenated?

Ken,

Yes...the smell is pretty noxious. A few years ago I followed a car running C44 for a few laps and it almost made me sick. I don't think I've smelled the MR9, but have heard it gives off a distinctive odor as well.

Matt

[RobLav]

I ran VP Red last weekend, and it seemed fine. They have it at the local motorcycle dealer. If ethanol was not in our pump gas, I'd run the premium - no ethanol in the fuel cell...

[JakeL]

When I asked Richard at Rilltech the other day, he suggested Sunoco 110, same as George. Runs a bit cooler on that stuff, and doesn't cost any horsepower.

Regarding pump gas, I don't have 1st hand experience, so take this with a grain of salt, but I've been told it will fail the SCCA fuel tests.

-Jake

[mjaremko]

The only LEGAL fuel for a SCCA National is what they sell at the track. George Dean told us to run Sunoco 110 leaded.

mj

[RussMcB]

The only LEGAL fuel for a SCCA National is what they sell at the track. George Dean told us to run Sunoco 110 leaded.

mj

I hesitate to disagree, but I think there are two falsehoods in that first sentence: 1) You can run any gas that passes the tests, and 2) there is NO guarantee that track gas will pass. I've heard of several instances when competitors have been burned by that wives tale.

I'm 99% sure that FB can run pump gas legally, as long as it passes the tests, which it should. The fuel rule for FB is not the same as some other racing classes (like DSR?), IIRC.

Personally, I don't have a problem with racers using ridiculously expensive fuels. People should be free to spend their money on whatever they want. On the other hand, if the ridiculously expensive fuel might cause health issues, then it should be banned, and I think (hope) SCCA's rules are in place to address that.

[mjaremko]

Russ,

I guess I just assumed the track fuel rule was for everyone (all class's) I have never failed a fuel test using the track gas. I have heard of some people failing fuel tests who were mixing different fuels, like pump gas and legal track gas.

Dave mentioned the Runoffs as the only race where track fuel is mandatory, I thought that rule was for Nationals also, my mistake.

I am sorry to hear there is no fuel rule like the one in place at the Runoffs.

mj

[kmt63]

i also didnt know that fb was not the same as dsr.i do know that mark white had a national win taken away because he was using pump gas.this was in 07 and he was driving a dsr.

[Misterkris]

Kinda OT but ive been wondering if adding toulene would cause you to fail a fuel test. I wouldent think it would we detectable. Just wondering,we get it pallet worths at a time at work. Dont know how much it would help a 1000cc but it works nicely on boosted motors

[JakeL]

I am sorry to hear there is no fuel rule like the one in place at the Runoffs.
mj

Mark -

I'm largely in agreement with you. However, one simple reason is probably that many tracks - at least around here - don't have on-site race fuel.

-Jake

[mjaremko]

Jake,

I never even thought of that.

I guess one of the tracks I frequent dosnt have permanant fuel facilities either, but it does have venders who sell fuel out of barrels.


mj

[Richard Dziak]

Here is the ruling under SCCA for fuel...........

As per 2009 SCCA GCR:

Page GCR-231 H.6 Formula F1000

A. Any fuel permitted for any class per GCR 9.3.25 may be used in F1000

GCR 9.3.25 STATES:

9.3.25 A: Permitted fuel herein is defined as gasoline.

Fuel Standards:

Classes: AS,AT,FB,FE,SS,SM,T, IT, SRF,and Olds Sr and Elan spec DP-02 running as CSR.........Type:..... Gasoline w/ no added oil. See page GCR -79 2009 GCR
This should end any conversation or doubt about using standard pump GASOLINE.

So the question arises, do higher grade fuels for FB make the car run faster? Make the engine perform better? Allows racers to win races? Does high grade fuel provide more HP that makes a difference in a competitive racing environment? and amatuer racing like we are doing here within the SCCA or other racing bodies and clubs.

I agree with Russ McB...if racers want to use expensive fuels, it's their extra dime they are spending.

Personally, I really don't think at our level of racing, regular gasoline from a gas station pump, vs high $$$ race fuel really makes a major difference in class FB.

It seems like it just sounds cool to say...."I am using VP MS98 race gas or Sunoco 110".

Is there really any evidence in written form that AV Gas (leaded 110) makes the engine run cooler? Or is that only an assumption?

The end result for the win, seems to me, to be a very good/great driver, and a car that is reliable, and can make to the end of the race without any mechanical or accident problems on the track.

It's all about the how good the driver is, and the car, not the gas that goes in the car.

If I were to ask anybody whats best, that would be a professional motorcycle racer and what they use. Of course their racing engines are not stock motorcycle engines either.

Interesting thread however with lots of opinions.

[kmt63]

these bike motors are tuned from the factory for 93 octane pump gas.so if its legal that is what i would run.i think it was in 05.the fuel was open for dsr.the oxygenated fuel was worth 6 hp.also 35 dollars a gallon.

[RussMcB]

I am sorry to hear there is no fuel rule like the one in place at the Runoffs.

Not me!

I can buy gas at any of the hundreds of gas stations I pass every day for $2-3 gal. IIRC, the CHEAPEST gas at Road Atlanta (my home track) is $9/gal. Why would you want a rule that would force me to pay 3 or 4 times as much?! The only consequence to me would be one more reason why I couldn't afford a race weekend!

I'm sure things are very different at the pointy end of a national grid (where I am not), but please dont penalize us low budget racers with a rule like that. One of the very big draws of the FB class for me was legal pump gas. Anything to save money and hassle is a big plus (at the budget end of the regional racers' grid :-).

[Dave Gomberg]

So besides taking a sample to the tester how do you determine if a fuel will meet the Dielectric test?

That is the only reliable way to know. Tech should be prepared to test your fuel for you. If they aren't, you should make it clear to the Chief Steward that you expect that fuel will not be tested or that you will protest if it is.

Here's the details from VP's website for several fuels....

MS98, Leaded, 96 Octane, Oxygenated-?, Specific Gravity .715 @ 60F
VP110, Leaded, 107 Octane, Oxygenated-No, Specific Gravity .720-.735 @ 60F
C44, Leaded, 99 Octane, Oxygenated-No, Specific Gravity .676 @ 60F
MR9, Leaded, 87 Octane, Oxygenated-Yes, Specific Gravity .718 @ 60F

There is nothing in this information that will tell you anything about the Dielectric Constant value.

I had always been told that the use of oxygenated fuels was prohibited, but isn't pump gas oxygenated?

There is nothing that says oxygenated fuels are prohibited. However, in almost all cases, such fuels will produce a positive DC reading. For classes where the DC requirement is a DC value less than zero, they would fail. Too much oxygenation will drive the DC value over 15 which is the allowed value for those classes which are permitted to use them.

Dave

[Dave Gomberg]

these bike motors are tuned from the factory for 93 octane pump gas.so if its legal that is what i would run.i think it was in 05.the fuel was open for dsr.the oxygenated fuel was worth 6 hp.also 35 dollars a gallon.

Kevin:

Fuel for DSR has not been "open" since fuel testing went into effect - certainly not in 2005. The fact that some people may have run fuel that was not compliant - and got away with it because they weren't tested - does not change that.

Dave

[Matt Conrad]

Dave,

Thanks for your input. I think it is this DC allowance of zero vs. 15 that is the issue. I know an FC competitor that accidentally bought unleaded (oxygenated) fuel vs. leaded and failed the test. It was the track fuel....but it was the wrong track fuel. With FB allowed the 15 reading...we'll see what gets allowed. I'm just hoping pump gas is OK because these motors don't need anything better...and most competitors like $2.00/gallon fuel.

For FB, I think these exotic fuels might be legal. Once some of them get tested...we'll see.

In some off-forum discussions, e-mails, and PM's I've had with other FB competitors I get the impression that having $25/gallon fuel allowed for FB is not a good thing...but these rules are the same rules that allow $2.00 pump gas....what to do?

I guess the one thing I find odd is that the VP MR9 fuel is only 87 octane, but yet claims an 8% gain in HP...a gain that has evidently been verified on the dyno. If this fuel is legal....is anyone hoping to win National events going to be forced to use it?

Matt Conrad

[RussMcB]

Matt, why the problem with someone using exotic fuels? Is that different than someone putting on new tires for every session or hiring a high dollar engineer? Or renting a wind tunnel?

I think the class' real problem is the engine-of-the-year aspect, because that's where a racer will feel compelled to spend the big bucks to remain competitive (much more so than what fuel may offer), but I shouldn't hijack this thread with that topic.

[VehDyn]

Here is an aside. I talked to an FE racer at a race last year that mentioned problems that some FE's were having with pump gas with ethanol. Apparently there was a problem with running lean and causing issues. Ever hear of this?

Thanks.

[Dave Gomberg]

The entire topic of fuels is quite complex. For 2010, in addition to DC testing, there will be a new (expanded) list of prohibited substances and a mechanism for testing for those substances. (The details were published earlier this year - January Fastrack - although there were a few inaccuracies in what was published.)

The short answer to why SOME exotic fuels should not be allowed has to do with health and safety of competitors, workers, crew and spectators. This has nothing to do with performance per se. Now that the Board of Directors has approved this new program, one of the things the CRB will be doing is to explain it and its consequences to the SCCA membership. I'm in the process of writing an article to do this. It won't be ready for a while, but when it is, we will try to make everyone aware of it.

With regard to the use of pump gas and other fuels that contain ethanol, there are multiple issues. Pump gas is not very consistent. On the street, this isn't much of a problem because street vehicle EFI systems can deal with a wide range of fuel under ordinary driving conditions. In race engines, pump gas may not be a wise choice. Besides the possibility of running lean, ethanol attacks rubber and some plastic hoses and fittings; ethanol can damage fuel cells that are not constructed from the appropriate materials.

We are not in a position to say that particular fuels will or will not pass the new tests because fuel blenders may change their formulations at any time. Something that passed last month, might not pass next month. If a fuel blender will not tell you that their fuel contains none of the prohibited substances (in excess of the allowed amounts), you would be wise to use a different fuel. We do know that there are fuel blenders using ingredients that are extremely toxic or carcinogenic and those are what we are seeking to exclude.

Dave

[kmt63]

Kevin:

Fuel for DSR has not been "open" since fuel testing went into effect - certainly not in 2005. The fact that some people may have run fuel that was not compliant - and got away with it because they weren't tested - does not change that.

Dave

was fuel open in csr in 05.i work for west race cars and there was a can of this oxygenated fuel in the back room.i was told that it was used when the fuel rule was open.but i cant remember if it was for csr or dsr.im also not sure what year it was used.i was also told that if you didnt run this fuel.you did not stand a chance at winning.so dave what year did the fuel testing go into efect?

[Richard Dziak]

I have never seen or heard of $25.00 per gallon race fuel sold at any track I have raced at.

I would think that quote is totally overblown and is sensationalism especially for SCCA racers.

I don't think that any FB racer here on Apexspeed would even consider spending $25.00 per gallon for fuel. That is not the intent of the class.

Perhaps a poll or survey might be interesting to see what they are using in their cars.

From what I read here on Apex Speed it appears the Mark Jaremko, Glenn Cooper, Nick Woodman, Nick Belling and few others not mentioned are the top drivers of FB.

What are these driver/owners using for fuel?

What are you currently paying per gallon for fuel sources?

[BrianT1]

I race in Formula Continental and I can tell you that people are currently using VP's c-44 this year. Does it produce power yes. It is toxic I have been told no. Is it legal yes. Does it cost a fortune, YOU BET. With the runoffs at Road America and the fact that you have to run track fuel during the runoffs, to me it makes no sense to run an exotic fuel. I am going to be at all the Road America events this year as it is my home track. To run a fuel that is not legal at the runoffs is idiotic and you will learn nothing from using it.

I think all these fuels should be outlawed for the simple reason as a cost factor and fairness. I realize these are not spec classes but spend your money on something else.

I can not see why the SCCA cannot have the region work a deal with local fuel suppliers to bring fuel to the tracks. Everyone would use the same fuel as it could easily be marked and in tech only check the top three finishers. This would eliminate lots of problems and expense.

Brian Tomasi
FC #96

[Sean Maisey]

FWIW - When I asked this question, George Dean told me to run 93 octane pump gas (preferably alcohol free - but that is getting hard to find).

Same reasoning as the earlier post. We run stock motors and that is what they are designed for...

I think I remember somewhere in the FF/FC/FE fuel discussions a few years ago hearing someone in the know stating "the most HP is made with the lowest octane fuel that you can run without detonation"...

So the question is whether the exotic oxygenators etc.. make extra power at the same octane ratings, right?

Perhaps someone more knowledgable can confirm this?

Sean

I need to type faster. Richard, you are going to be disappointed to know that MANY carry their own fuel barrels to National events. And yes it seems to yield an advantage that is worth it. FC and FB are very similar in that a few HP are significant...

[Daryl DeArman]

Richard,

If you buy C44 by the 5 gal pail you are paying $51/gallon!!!! It is the most expensive race fuel that VP sells.

http://www.geocities.com/vpracegasat...fuelprices.htm

They make it because there is a market for it. Somebody is buying it. Maybe not in FB yet. However, when the engine and chassis packages have been tweaked to their fullest and motor builders and chassis guys aren't finding any more tenths...

New motors are available every year. I think folks will be finding more time in the entire package, they won't have the need to resort to uber expensive fuel looking for the last couple of tenths.

[Nicholas Belling]

From what I read here on Apex Speed it appears the Mark Jaremko, Glenn Cooper, Nick Woodman, Nick Belling and few others not mentioned are the top drivers of FB.

What are these driver/owners using for fuel?

What are you currently paying per gallon for fuel sources?

I dyno'd many different fuels, we did not determine that anything really ran cooler and was better from that perspective for running incar and on track.

I did learn that pump gas produced the highest hp numbers. But not just any pump gas. Ethanol free blend for sure. especially when intially just using the stock ecu..

I never got a chance to test VP MR9 fuel but Like Matt Conrad mentioned. I also heard from bike guys who have run that with great success, but they are 100% modifying fuel maps. I am sure with a ecu fuel remapping like a power commander and properly tuned for elevations I can only imagine if detonation is under control it could produce more power than pump 93 with no ethanol. Most teams trackside dont have the manpower and crew to be working on so many programs in there team.. I see most teams are one or 2 man operations. If you ran a piggyback fuel ecu map, and tuned trackside and interpreted the data for each rpm range.. and had properly calibrated equipment that was functioning as it should this would be the ideal way. There are so many variables that can effect a motor on a dyno vs on a track that can skew static dyno results. most times when dynoing people are running no airbox filter setups and especially no ram air intake simulations are occuring as they dont know what pressures there scoops are averaging on track to test with.

My advice.. run no ethanol 91 or 93.. get it tested like dave said trackside.. verify it passes and just run it consistently everywhere.

I noticed most guys running FB run what they are told to run from competitors or there local tech at the time or are running what there competitors are simply running.. Dont get caught following the black sheep. Just because joe runs 110 and hes fast doesnt mean that bill will be fast also if he runs it.. maybe joe is TUNED for that 110.. and it really hurts bills hp numbers.

We have access to a local dyno this year and will be doing ALOT of testing with fuels and tuning to find what seems to be able to work best for combination of airbox/fuel/remapping/exhaust setups/ and dont forget the all special hp gaining magic oil lubrication that does and can make a difference over others.. Ask George dean on this.

just my two sense.. pm me offline with questions or email me nick@fastforwardmotorsports.com

[RussMcB]

Glad to hear SCCA's main focus is health. It makes no sense for them to have rules to limit fuel for the purpose of limiting HP or costs.

Since the advantages of exotic fuels are apparently not high for our stock engines, we shouldn't worry about it, just like we don't really worry about someone building an FB car with a Desdemodo engine (or whatever the legal but expensive engine options are).

If anyone truly is worried about exotic rules hurting the class, I think the best approach is to gain everyone's voluntary agreement. Other classes have done that successfully at special events, right?

I like the "Plain Old Gas" movement seen in Spec Miata, Improved Touring and other classes. Members display a POG decal on their car.

http://www.plainoldgas.com/

[formulasuper]

I just ordered my decals. (Saving our lungs, & other vital organs also!)

[Matt Conrad]

Good discussion. I'm glad I started the thread and glad many of you have offered your experiences and opinions.

Here's my final thoughts....

1. I've only used MS98 and 110 leaded race fuels. I had always used the 110 as it is pretty standard at all tracks (Sunoco, VP, etc). I only tried the MS98 as it was a bit cheaper and I thought the 110 octane was a bit of overkill. I will probably never use any other fuel.
2. I don't care what fuels people use. If you want to spend $50/gallon on fuel....go for it.....with one caveat...it must be legal.
3. I applaud SCCA for looking into banning fuels which may contain harmful elements. I have experienced being behind a car running one of these exotic fuels (C44) and it was noxious.
4. Don't fool yourself...FB competitors are already using exotic fuels. When a fuel can make 10 more HP on the dyno....proven on a stock motor....why wouldn't somebody use it? If this fuel is legal (and I believe it is) then anyone not wanting to give up 10 HP will be forced to use it.

Matt Conrad

[glenn cooper]

I was just having this conversation last night at Road Atlanta.
Richard, the only time I have known of exotic fuel being used in FB was at last year's ARRC.
I noticed it on the grid just prior to the race. You can definitely smell that crap, and it will make you nauseous.

The car so fueled did not finish in front of my car w/ 110 Sunoco.

As far as "Gentlemens Agreements", they never work. Hell written contracts are able to be broken!

I really hope those fuels are outlawed.

Matt C. - Isn't MS98 a rotary engine/FM blend that includes the addition of a wee bit of oil that helps lubricate the apex seals?

I was told to run 110 by my engine guy, and just this weekend ran the 100 unleaded.
The octane requirement of these engines has me believing that 110 is overkill, but the cooling affect is something I had not counted on/thought about...

I don't like running pump gas (swill), in fact I don't even put that crap in my mower!
The cleanliness of race fuel is where it's at.
AV Gas may be fine for tractor motor FC's, but certainly not for 12,000 rpm screamers...

GC

[formulasuper]

Not a FB guy, however the local premium pump gas (and by local, I mean whatever good brand name local station is near the track I'm at that weekend), has seemed to work just fine in my stock Hayabusa powered FS Ralt for 3 years running. Afterall, these are stock motorcycle engines designed to run on premium, right?

[Matt Conrad]

Glenn,

Not sure about the MS98 having added oil....hadn't heard that....but I do believe the MS98 has been the spec fuel for FM series'....but I was told because those engines didn't really require big octane numbers and the fuel was relatively inexpensive.

As far as pump gas....I'd love to run $2 fuel. The problem is that our local laws have a "special blend" that changes depending on the time of year. I would rather run a consistant fuel that I know won't fail a test, won't ruin a fuel cell, or cause other issues with the motor.

Matt Conrad

[DanW]

Matt,

You are absolutely correct about highway gasolines. California has 5 different formulas for highway fuels plus a version for off road/agricultural with varying amounts of ethanol (up to 11%), plus different vapor pressures, distillation curves and end points. I believe Arizona's fuels are similar since most of your base stocks come from California refineries.

May I suggest you contact David Redzus. He is a fuels engineer and consultant with Conoco-Phillips Chemical. They produce the spec race fuels for SCCA Enterprises for dyno tuning and sealing the engines. He was very helpful with his answers to my questions and his advice. He is also very knowledgable about the various legal and not so legal fuel additives and the performance claims by the race fuel blenders such as VP and ERC.

I will send you a PM with his contact info.

BTW, I saw the new Phoenix at Thunderhill in March. What a beautiful car!

Regards,
Dan Wise

[jjstecher]

I've never run anything different than 91 or 93 octane pump gas from the Kwiktrip down the road from me here in Rochester or the Citgo station a few miles from RA. It's got ethanol in it as well as god knows what else but I have never in 6 national races failed a fuel test. It'd be pretty friggin ludicrous to fail someone for paying $2/gallon so they can actually afford to go racing versus $9/gallon at the track.