A few questions from a potential f500 racer

[nickyg99]

[SIZE=2]Note: I also posted this on eformulacarnews.com, so if you saw it there I apologize for the repeat. Just want to solicit as much information as possible.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=2]Hello everybody,
First, want to say how helpful this forum and others have been at researching my possible venture into road racing and I think it is awesome how helpful and sharing your f500 community is!
To tell you a bit about myself --to give some context to my questions and comments-- I'm 28 years old and currently live in the Chicago area (originally from central IL). I began racing karts when I was 9 years old, first on the tarmac, then we primarily moved to dirt track. Around age 13, I began racing modified midgets/mini-sprints and spent about 7 years racing 600cc mini-sprints pretty much full time locally and regionally here in the midwest. My dad (my team owner and chief engineer and I had a lot of success, winning local track championships, a state championship race, and regularly placing in regional and national events and point standings. From there we went on and raced a non-winged USAC-style sprint car (approx. 600hp, 1200lbs) for a couple years in the Midwest Sprint Car series. It was an amazing experience, but ultimately got too expensive for us to fund with 'family' money and grad school and getting started in my career took priority.
I've battled the racing bug off too long and after participating in a few autocross events in my daily driver BMW--I've become extremely interested in getting into road racing! After doing some initial research, I'm very drawn to f500 (or f1000--but that might be jumping in over my budget)

Ok, now for my questions:
1) Why is it that when I look at pictures of various f500 cars, some of them look more like formula cars (without wings of course) and some look more like sports racers with fuller body work? It appears all these cars run in the same class, but can look drastically different.
2) Given that mastering the art can take years of experience, what is the learning curve on the basic set up of the suspensions on these cars? I know torsion bars and coil-over shocks for dirt track racing, but obviously this is a whole new game. Are there any books or publications specific to f500 that cover the basics of car set-up.
3) One of the things that really draws me to f500, or SCCA racing in general, is the ability to be able to go full out road racing, but also have the option to autocross virtually any weekend that I may not have the time to invest in a full race weekend. What kind of changes typically need to be made to a car to switch it from race set-up to autocross set-up, and vica versa?
4) How long does a set of tires last? Is there a spec tire for the class or different compounds? Are good autocross tires different than what you'd typically use as a race tire--build up heat faster vs longer wear? What are the costs?
5) Do you need to have a license/attend a driving school to race at regional races? While I definitely plan to attend a driving school in the near future and get my national license down the road, with my former race experience I'd like to be able to get my feet wet at a few local races before investing a couple grand in a driving school weekend.
6) Finally, do organizations such as the Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs and others allow f500 to run at track days, high-speed autocrosses, PDX, etc...?

I think that's about it for now, sorry for the length, but any information on any of these topics would be extremely helpful! Don't worry though, your time and consideration will more than likely produce another member of your racing community by late this season or early next season, as I'm about 80% sure already that this is the route I'm going to go for the CURE.

P.S. Just to throw in my two cents, I'm very interested in the proposed 600cc MC engine adoption. As I said, I ran these engines for 7 years in the very abusive environment of winged mini-sprints and was nothing but amazed at how durable and dependable they were in that harsh environment. I only remember having one engine failure in 7 years of racing every single weekend all season long, with minimal maintenance or headaches. I think the adoption of these engines would most definitely spur huge growth in the class. I know personally of at least two other friends who would be very interested if this alternative was adopted. While I appreciate their uniqueness and charm, in my opinion the 2-stroke limited-availability motor and CVT transmission is the biggest drawback to entering the class. I don't want to go parts hunting for one, and I don't want to have to try and learn about setting up a unique transmission that has no application outside this class. Plus, I think shifting is one of the cool parts of racing... If you were running 600cc MC motors I would be actively on the market for either a late model car f500 or a new roller immediately.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=2]Thanks,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]-Nick Gaines[/SIZE]

[Evl]

I only raced F5 a short while so some other people can probably fill in a little more, but here are a few quick answers:

1) The "formula" for the class allows for sports car "noses". Same set of rules for everyone, different people come up with different solutions.
2) I just used the setup the previous owner suggested. The manufactures are a helpful bunch as well for setup advice. I spent more time worrying about driving the car than setting it up, which is fine for regional events.
3) That's exactly why I joined the class. I think it's the best dual purpose class out there. Use caution with the MC engine here though, I don't know how the autox community plans to handle that. The SV people may or may not be welcoming. Anyway, I just threw a wide set of front tires on for autox, and that was about it. Ideally you'd have a different final drive ratio as well. Jim L has been successful in both arenas.
4) I used the Hoosier R25B compound for everything.
5) You need a novice permit to attend an SCCA school. SCCA schools are a lot cheaper than the commercial schools, so if you have your own car, it isn't to onerous cost-wise. Talk to your instructor about getting signed off w/ only 1 school if you have previous experience. Otherwise you need two schools before you can race in regional events. Again talk to your region's licensing person about getting potential waivers.

Hope this helps,

-Chris

[nickyg99]

This is helpful, thanks!
Were you able to run somewhat successfully in Autocross with only these few changes? Other people are talking about having to set the rear end from "grip" to "neutral", adjusting toe-out, stearing ratio, etc... Obviosly without doing all of this you wouldn't be as fast as a autocross-specific car, but are you at least not struggling in fighting the car around the tight cones?

[Evl]

Doing nothing but the tire/wheel change I was able to PAX near the top at local events, reliably getting FTD assuming an F125 didn't show up. I even took home a trophy from a National Tour event. Exact same car was competitive at regional club races.

Now this isn't to say that if you want a top-flight car you might want to play with the final drive for sure, and look for other tricks to make it go around tight corners well with a solid rear axle, but it is still a great class for doing both.

Only drawback is that at local events, you might be just racing for PAX honors. Some regions have a lot of F5's showing up, but Bucc Region isn't one of them.

[nickyg99]

Awesome, that's very encouraging!!

[mmi16]

F500 is the best bang for the buck in SCCA racing.

Easily done as a one man band at the track and easily towed behind most cars and SUV's.

[preform resources]

Nicky, as Chris noted , the SCCA allows (actually reccomends is the phrase they use in the gcr) sports car noses probably for safety mostly, but they are actually more aero dynamic than pointy noses when you can't take advantage of running a front wing . A sports car nose body is more complicated and requires a cooling system/ducting peculiar to that type of design however.
Dave Craddock

[nickyg99]

Another questions, in regards to towing, how long is a f500 car? I'm sure it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but what is the typical range/maximum length? We've got an enclosed trailer with 10' of interior length, would that be long enough? Also, what is the average/maximum width of the cars?

Thanks for all the support here! I'm definitely excited about joining your community in the near future!

[Jnovak]

The maximum width of an F500 is 55"

The length varies by manufacturer & I do not think that a typical F500 will fit in a 10' trailer unless you remove the nose, then it might. Measure 1st.

Thanks ... Jay

[Marshall Mauney]

Another questions, in regards to towing, how long is a f500 car? I'm sure it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but what is the typical range/maximum length? We've got an enclosed trailer with 10' of interior length, would that be long enough? Also, what is the average/maximum width of the cars?

Be careful using width specs to select a trailer. As Jay says - measure the actual car and trailer, along with everything you expect to take with you.

1) You need at least 55" between the wheel wells - not "total width" of the trailer. "Beavertail" trailers generally have the floor nested in between the wheel wells, so you have to measure to know for sure.
2) You will also be taking along tools, tires, canopy, spares, etc.
3) Getting a trailer with a lower floor will save lots of time and hassle getting loaded and unloaded - the flatter the ramp is, the easier it will be.

As a practical matter, I would think that a 7x14 would be a reasonable minimum starting point. I have a 8x20, and it feels like a good fit, with plenty of room to carry all of the extra "stuff" that you always seem to need/want at the track.

[rickjohnson356]

F600 MC cars are just starting to be available.

Southeast Division SCCA (SEDIV) allows them starting this year and they run with the F500 class. Usually in SEDIV the race groupings are small formula cars and big formula cars. Small being F500/600, FV,FST,CF,FF and lately we have been trying FC in that group. The big formula cars are FA, FB (F1000), FM, FE, FS.

F500/600 are faster than FV and FST and some CF.

Get F600 chassis info from 'jnovak', who posted before me. He has shown a new F600 chassis at the ARRC last year. I don't know if the thread is still on Apex, but he can provide a link to it.

With the experience you have with other 600cc MC, it would be one less variable for you to mess with.

Welcome!

[captaineddie1975]

Marshall's advice is pretty correct as respects the trailer although I fit his old car a 2002 Red Devil inside my 6x12 Haulmark with a little less room than I had fitting in a KBS or an Invader that I used to have. Judicious packing of the items you bring with you and the installation of tire racks ( I have two homemade on each side of the trailer) will give you adequate room. I do remove the nose and put it in the seat but can leave the rest of the bodywork on. I also have an electric winch which comes in real handy when you are a one or two man show.

[nickyg99]

[SIZE=2]Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah, it's looking like our 10 footer won't be long enough to comfortably fit most any f500, not to mention any gear, spares, canapoy, etc... Looks like we'll need to trade up to a 14'-20'.
We just want to make sure we avoid at all cost "trailer bloat"--we were in a 48' gooseneck when we were racing sprint cars before we finally said enough is enough (and subsequently ran out of funds)!! It sure was comfy though[/SIZE]

[aerobach]

Nicky,
If you've got money to burn, then by all means go out and get the biggest, baddest truck & trailer you can find BUT.... if you're having to do this on the cheap or just happen to believe that trailer size doesn't do anything for increasing your speed on the track (novel idea, I know!), then don't be too quick to give up on your existing trailer. First off, it's enclosed!!! that's a great start and perhaps more important (I'm assuming here - be careful) it's paid for!!!!
Think outside the box...no one thinks in 3-D. Build ramps elevated off the floor, maybe 24" high or better yet the height of your toolbox or storage bins, use a wench (hope I spelled that correctly, if not, you get the idea) to pick up the back end of the ramps so you can carry all the other stuff below the car. Heck, you could just leave the ramps at an angle to create some added length.
Somewhere within Apex is a cheap idea for trailer wheels. I'm copying that idea as we speak. Hopefully it makes life much easier for loading & unloading - we'll see.
There's no shame in removing bodywork to get the car on the trailer. Hell, lots of cars have to do that anyway b/c their ride height is set so frigg'n low!!!
Why do I say all this? I used to tow an old F440 (forerunner to F5) on a beat-up open sprint car trailer that couldn't have been much over 10', if that. Today, I tow an '86 Reynard FC on a 12' open trailer (with a soccer mom minivan!) - fits just fine.
Good luck with your adventure and most of all....have fun!!!!
Take care, John Bachmann

[Marshall Mauney]

Somewhere within Apex is a cheap idea for trailer wheels.

Depending on your lug pattern, you might be able to use space-saver spares from an old GM car. I found a very inexpensive junkyard set for the 2002 Red Devil I used to own.....

[captaineddie1975]

Marshall Mauney wrote:
Depending on your lug pattern, you might be able to use space-saver spares from an old GM car. I found a very inexpensive junkyard set for the 2002 Red Devil I used to own.....

And they still work very well thank you. I also use ramps for the front wheels to clear the winch. I lay my gear bag over the front end as well as the 10x10 EZUp. Sides are clear for the battery used for the lift any excess gas cans not carried in the bin in the bed of my pickup. The two toolboxes go in the back, small one under the car and large one aside of the car. Diffuser if I bring it goes aside of the car. Folding chairs in their bags go aside of the car Nose goes in the seat as I already mentioned. We have two tire racks on the walls and little holders on the front wall for cans of things oils etc. All in all avery compact tidy package. With the single axle Haulmark 6x12 I also pay less in tolls and it is easier to get in and out of tight spaces.