Formula B info

[ed tirelli]

Hi everyone, I'm planning on building a car for next year and have decided on formula B. However, I need some direction as to just what kind of car I should build. Which chassis would you guys recommend? Also, can a formula ford be converted to this series as well as a formula continental? (is there any difference between a FF and a FC besides the wings and engine for that matter?) I have access to tooling machinery, so fabrication of any kind will not be very difficult. I'm hoping I can add another FB to the ranks. Thanks

[RussMcB]

When you say build do you mean convert a car to motorcycle power?

I think someone asked earlier about FF vs. FC and the consensus was get the FC because it will probably save money.

[ed tirelli]

Yea, I don't really want to build a car completely from the ground up, just looking for a conversion. Are there any differences between FF and FC besides the wings and the engine size? Also, is there a chassis any one would recommend ( i.e. Van Diemen, Swift, etc.)

[RussMcB]

Usually the only big differences between FF & FC are the wings and engine.

I think all chassis have advantages and disadvantages. Tell us how much money you want to spend. Low budget, or money no object? What size person are you? That will help us make recommendations.

[ed tirelli]

More than anything I want to be competitive, but as inexpensive as that can possibly be. As for size I am 5'10, 135lbs., so I can pretty much fit into anything.

[Sean Maisey]

Keep in mind that if you buy a FF to convert you will start with 0 useful wheels as well as needing wings and a diffuser.

Sean

That being said, there are some killer FF deals, and you can always sell off things like wheels.

[RobLav]

A good car on the relative cheap can be had by doing something like this:

Buy a 1994-1996 Van Diemen FC - use EVERYTHING you can off of it and sell what is not needed. (about $10-12K - then sell engine, bell, and LD200 for a min of $5K)

Buy a Citation new chassis and Kevlar sidepanels (about $5K).

You can make your own A-Arms to fit the VD uprights, etc... you can build up a really good car for under $20K. And it will be considered new - not a conversion.

Alternative is to find a narrow track Van Diemen RF99 or RF00 and convert. If you put 8" rims on the front of a wide track Van Diemen you will be out of spec in width.

[Richard Dziak]

Ed:

As an owner of an Formula B ....F1000 race car, I would highly suggest that you consider buying a newly constructed F1000 or one that you might see advertised here on ApexSpeed. Certainly any build by a single person will be very time consuming and building from the ground up will require engineering, mechanical and design skills. The cost to build may be more than what you might expect. Be prepared for that. There have been numerous posts here about building and there are pluses and minuses to a self build.

If you want to be competitive and have an expertly built car, call Dustin at Phoenix Race Works and order a roller. Dustin builds a fantastic car, at a great price point. You will get the best of the best in both engineering and design and overall performance build.

On the resale side, there have been some great bargins listed here on ApexSpeed by builders who have spent numerous hours and dedication to their self built cars, or conversions. What some builders have put $$$$ into the self built cars-conversions they never get a return on their car and sell the cars for less than what have have into them $$$ wise. The economics of racing in todays economy has placed monetary stress's on many racers and they are selling their cars to raise cash.

I would watch the classified ads here on ApexSpeed as their have been some great cars listed. Some sold, some not.

Be sure to do research to determine what's best for you. Be prepared to spend many nights in the garage building the car. There is also a cost to down time from racing, With a new car or new roller your ready to race within a short period of time, It is unlikely that you will be able to complete a car on a self build quickly. You may lose out on an entire racing season. Buying a car already built (resale) you are most likely 100% race ready.

Ask questions, lots of them. ApexSpeed will be your best source of knowledge from many racers/owners/drivers/builders who have both bought new and self built or converted. I am sure you will find many responses and opinions to my post.

Most importantly you have selected a class of car (F1000) that is absolutely a blast to drive and own, and ultimately will be a great value for your racing enjoyment.

Best of luck no matter what way to go. Just be sure to give this purchase or build serious thought, and do your research. Lots of research.

Once again I suggest to buy new or consider a resale car listed here on ApexSpeed.

[RussMcB]

More than anything I want to be competitive, but as inexpensive as that can possibly be.

Hmm. You'll need to do better than that. How about giving us a price range for how much you can spend up front before you go to the first race.

Richard is right. If you can afford a new car, buy a Phoenix or one of the other great new cars. For a lot of us a new car is not possible, but we still want to be a part of this exciting class, so we've done the most with what we have. The Novak kit is very nice and successful. I'm guessing a car like that would be $30,000-ish, but don't know for sure. Jerry Freeman may have assembled a FB car for the least amount of money, but he's done a lot of work and had a FSV to start with. I think $15,000 is about the bare minimum and that's if you do a lot of the conversion fabrication yourself. Even at $15K it will be a fast and fun car, but I'm not sure what your idea of competitve is. You might win races with a $15K car but only if the fast guys stay home.

[DanW]

For a very well designed and engineered conversion, have a look at this one..

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...ghlight=photon

I saw this car run at Mid-Ohio two years ago, shortly after its completion. Everything about it was absolutely first rate. The fabrication, preparation and detail were first rate.

I haven't seen russ's car, but everyone in the southeast speaks very highly of it.

Regards,
Dan

[ed tirelli]

I would say about 20-25k is the budget. However, I have both my own fabrication shop and a family members tool and die shop at my disposal to bring some costs down, and my dad has built cars before. I figured these variables could help me do more with that budget than most would be able to. Right now I'm leaning towards either an in-progress formula b, or a built FF/FC. I guess Ill know when the right car and deal comes along. I would love to have either a phoenix or a stohr chassis, but they are out of my price range.

[Richard Dziak]

Ed:

You should take a VERY SERIOUS look at Dan W's post. I see no reason to spend $20-25,000 to build/convert when you can buy a ready to race car in EXCELLENT condition. Instead of waiting to build, Jeremy Hill's car puts you into the drivers seat immediately. No waiting to race.

As I stated before, there are some very outstanding buys available on a resale basis. If your considering something lower priced, contact Russ McBride who is an active poster here on ApexSpeed and builder of a conversion car. He recently listed his car for under $17,000. For those who have seen Russ's car they have all made positive comments on it. His car would be a great entry point into F1000.

Whether you have access to machine shops, tools etc, it will be cheaper and quicker to the track to consider a resale F1000.

[Rick Ross]

Ed,

How much racing experience do you have? An FB car is not for new drivers, regardless of their fabrication skills. If you are new to this type of racing consider first getting some quality seat time in an FV, FF, SRF, etc.

[ed tirelli]

I started karting when I was around 4 and continued up through high school, then around 18 I did a season of formula ford. I'm currently 21, and I was invited to participate in the licensing course for FBMW, but my parents aren't oil tycoons so that is out of the question. Meanwhile my dad has wanted to build a FB car for a while now, so we decided to finally go through with it. Basically, I've been doing the research and looking for good candidates for our effort.

[carnut169]

#1- Buy a new Piper
#2- Buy a new RFR/ Phoenix
#3- Buy Hill's FB
#4- Buy a 98+ Van Diemen and convert w/ Novak's kit
#5- Buy a 98+ Van Diemen and make your own
#6- Buy Russ's car or the 96 for sale
#7- Buy a new Stohr/ Speads
#8- Buy a 94-96 FC and convert it
#9- Buy a FF and convert it


In order, if I was in the market. Generally more competitive as you progress up the list, at a higher $$. However, #3 is a bargain considering that #2 is going to be $40k+, as would #4, and Hill's is about 1/2 of that.

Building a car (converting) takes A LOT of work. Figure at least 1 season lost. It's also very satisfying....

There are several build threads on this forum.

[ed tirelli]

What are the forum names for Russ and Hill?

[Brian]

People, don't lose track of the fact that some people like to build cars as much as anything else. And that costs can be relative to experience and capability. I mean, would you tell Steve L. that he should buy a Van Diemen and modify it because it's too expensive to build a new car? No...

As stated, the class was designed around the concept of converted FC cars. If you want to start with a conversion, buy the best FC car you can, and put a new back end on it. That said, purpose built cars like the Stohr and others will probably turn out to be the class dominators.

On the other hand, if you are thinking that building car or converting a car will save you money, understand that the conversion cars that are for sale are pretty much being sold for less than they cost to build, in a lot of cases they were done by guys with your level of capability, machine shop in the garage, fabricating cars on a pro level for about their whole life (thinking jeremy hill here, but others also), and they know how to do it right the first time.

so if the goal is actually driving or if the goal is making chips in a tool room, your goal will drive your decisions.

The only real difference between a FF and an FC is that the FF doesn't come with several thousand dollars worth of proper sized wheels and wings that the FC does come with. Other than that, they are identical.

Brian

[carnut169]

What are the forum names for Russ and Hill?

RussMcb

Jeremy Hill

There is a link to Hill's car on this post, you can find Russ's in FB classified section. Both cars are better that the adds make them look- and IMHO, would have been sold a while ago with adds as good as the cars.

[jerry freeman]

As far as I know I'm the only guy with a comepletely homebuilt car running right now. When the car first went to the track last spring I had less than $15,000 in it because I used old parts off an old super vee and a $100 motor. It's not even competative at regionals. But it is fun. Since then I have changed all four corners to VD stuff, bought 2 sets of wheels, and I'm putting the 07 Suzuki in it right now. So the cost is $20,000 plus and I have stopped counting. It might be competative at regionals now. It took 10 months to build and get to the track and I have been working on it most every day since. I built everything on the car; chassis, suspension, wings, spool, etc...
IT CAN'T BE DONE ANY CHEAPER! I tried.

If you want to be competative you will need to buy a new car(Phoenix, etc) or buy a 98 or newer VD and convert it like Glenn Cooper's car. Cooper has the most competative conversion in the country. He used the Novak conversion kit instead of fabricating everything himself. If you have the tools to do the work that's fine.

Bottom line, It will take around $30,000-35,000 to have a competative car whether it is a used car or a conversion. Depends on how long you want to take to get on the track.

Jerry

[jerry freeman]

Forgot to say that if you build your own car you want get 20 cents on the dolllar for it if you try to sell it. You will get a lot more money back if you convert a car or buy new.

I don't even consider selling my cars when I build them.

Gary Hickman in California also built a car from scratch but I don't consider it a homebuilt since he has a full CNC machine shop and lots of composite experience.
(sorry Gary)

Jerry

[RussMcB]

People, don't lose track of the fact that some people like to build cars as much as anything else. And that costs can be relative to experience and capability. I mean, would you tell Steve L. that he should buy a Van Diemen and modify it because it's too expensive to build a new car? No...

Very good point, especially considering Ed's surroundings and what he has access to.

Although my project was a lot of hard work, there has been an enormous amount of satisfaction in pulling it off. Would I have rather purchased a new Phoenix or Piper if I had the money? Sure. Driving is more fun that welding. On the other hand I have done something that has made my life experience richer. I can look at a lot of things on my car, take a swig of beer and say, "I made that." :-).

I haven't done the math, so this could be inaccurate, but I think I have much less than $20K in my car. I started with a $11,000 car and got a good price for the Pinto/Hewland drive train. I've been helped along the way with finding good deals such as the differential supplied by Mike Devins, HRP, and my buddy Patrick at C&J Welding in Atlanta has done a lot of quality TIG welding for pennies on the dollar.

[carnut169]

As far as I know I'm the only guy with a comepletely homebuilt car running right now. When the car first went to the track last spring I had less than $15,000 in it because I used old parts off an old super vee and a $100 motor. It's not even competative at regionals. But it is fun. Since then I have changed all four corners to VD stuff, bought 2 sets of wheels, and I'm putting the 07 Suzuki in it right now. So the cost is $20,000 plus and I have stopped counting. It might be competative at regionals now. It took 10 months to build and get to the track and I have been working on it most every day since. I built everything on the car; chassis, suspension, wings, spool, etc...
IT CAN'T BE DONE ANY CHEAPER! I tried.

Jerry

Glad it's going to be going faster Jerry, but that was not your issue, from what I remember. What about those brakes??

You can't just build a car from scratch and save $$ over buying an existing Fc and converting it. Parts like uprights, a-arm, etc are just too expensive when purchased seperately.

Ed- buy Hill's car and forget about it. You'll still have lots of fun in the garage doing maintenance, upgrades, & repairs. Something ALL formula cars require by the bucketload.

...on edit, Russ's car would also be a great choice if you did not want to spend the $$ as it's about 10k less. It is an older chassis, and probably will never be a front-running national car but could easily win at regionals- (I don't think my 96 was ever beaten by a Stohr...) but it is very well built and solid.

[ed tirelli]

Well, first off, thanks for the overwhelming support from the community here. This thread has definitely taken off and I have gained a lot of knowledge from it.
I've realized from the beginning this class is a lot of work and fabrication, but to be honest, if it wasnt I wouldn't be as interested. I've raced before, but I've never engineered a car, let alone one this capable. I mean the lap times these cars set are amazing for something that is essentially home built. And these engines sound bad ass.
But I digress. If I wanted to just get out there and race as soon as possible I would buy the FC and leave it alone. I figured you get something more from this class. I'll talk to Russ and Hill. If those are in my range, great. If not, Ill still be happy to build the car.
Thanks again

[Wren]

People, don't lose track of the fact that some people like to build cars as much as anything else. And that costs can be relative to experience and capability.

I don't think people are trying to be downers, I think they just want to dispel the myth that building a car will be cheaper. I've been involved in building an FB from nothing but billets of aluminum, magnesium, and steel and I am quite sure that it is absolutely not cheaper. Maybe if I only considered the actual cost of materials and didn't add anything in for time, tooling, or the machines neccesary, it could be a little cheaper, maybe.

I agree with Russ about the intangibles of building a car, I would just want people to go in with their eyes open.

If I were looking to build a car on a real budget, I would start with a late model Van Diemen and buy Novak's kit(great value) or engineer one myself. The communal knowledge of this chassis and spares availability are a huge commodity.

As stated, the class was designed around the concept of converted FC cars.

I do not believe that the rules reflect this, no matter the intent behind them.

If you want to start with a conversion, buy the best FC car you can, and put a new back end on it. That said, purpose built cars like the Stohr and others will probably turn out to be the class dominators.

I think that Coop and Pritchard have already proven the competitiveness of conversions. I know that the Piper is technically a "factory" car, but the car is a Piper FC with a new back end stuck on it. Considering that the Piper factory at the time was pretty much Don's garage, it's a conversion.

Over the next few years, as people get a better baseline for these cars and get better at making the engines survive (we have already seen a big improvement), the conversions will have to do more to play with the different aero rules than FC.

[ghickman]

Gary Hickman in California also built a car from scratch but I don't consider it a homebuilt since he has a full CNC machine shop and lots of composite experience.
(sorry Gary)

Jerry[/quote]

Jerry-
I really don't consider my car a "home built" either...we like to refer to it as a "One Off".

Ed-
I personally have 3 decades of CNC and fabrication experience. Voice of experience telling anyone considering building from scratch should expect to have more time, effort, and dollars into their car than if they just went and purchased a new car.

It took about 1500 man hours to build our car....and now we're in the process of building a refined version that weighs 100 pounds less...all in an effort to be ultra competitive.

Jeremy Hill's car or Russ's car are a bargain....

GH

[Jnovak]

It all depends on when you want to get started & how much money & time you want to spend. Building your own will take forever & the development makes this a very tough way to go. Cost, of course, is always a consideration & my list reflects this with lower cost/work combinations listed 1st.

1. If you want to get started right away with a VERY NICE CAR car you should buy Jeremy Hill's car. It is a very nicely executed conversion of a Van Diemen FC. This will be low cost & low work to get you started.

2. Purchase a 98 or later (later is better) Van Diemen FC car, purchase the Novakar kit & spend a couple of months putting it together.

3. Buy the Piper, this is a GREAT car & is for sale right now with plenty of spares.

3. Buy a new car (in no particular order):
Phoenix
Firman
Stohr

Thanks ... Jay

[glenn cooper]

Hell, at the current price I'D get Hill's car (sorry Jay! ).
GC

[Jnovak]

No need to be sorry Coop, it was my number 1 pick too. I would get Jeremy's car if I was buying.

Thanks ... Jay

[Ivinsea]

Purchase a 98 or later (later is better)

Jay - at what point do you consider the cars the same - 2001 and newer (except for the moustache wing)?

Thanks.

Ivin Seabrook

[glenn cooper]

Yeah the newer it is, the less time on all the components.

Less $'s you'd then have to spend on fresh bits: rotors, axles/cv's/tripods/mangled hardware/rough bodywork/coolers/belts/etc...

GC

[Jnovak]

Ivin, the 98 & later chassis are all pretty much functionally the same in that our kit will fit on the chassis. However some of the 98 & perhaps 99 chassis have smaller fasteners & alignment bungs on the back of the Van Diemen frame. We have had to repair a couple of these early 98 frames that have damage to the attahement bungs. This is a key think to look for as it is a major repair to fix them right.

Another issues is narrow track vs wide track suspension. Both will fit on our kit with no mods. Someone else needs to chime in on what years were narrow track & what are wide track.

BTW, Glenn's car is a 98 narrow track. Correct me if I'm wrong Glenn.
His frame also has the larger diameter bungs & fasteners on the back of the VD frame.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[glenn cooper]

Actually my chassis is a '99. It started as a RF98, but I guess was re-chassied at some point w/ a '99. Narrow track is correct. I believe all VD cars from '01 on are widetrack.
GC

[D.T. Benner]

Newer cars do not always have less time/miles. Some F2000 Pro teams are known for doing 3000 to 4000 testing miles Before the First race of a season. A know people who have bought Van Diemens from pro teams that they thought would be good as they were supposed to be maintained by a "Pro" team only to find they would end up replacing a lot more parts then if they had bought a less abused car from Joe Clubracer who didn't have the budget to pound a car to death. Just FYI.