best storage techniques for fuel in car

[adamb113]

How do you guys set up the car with fuel for the off season?
Stabil?
Flush everything?
?

[dd46637]

I always pump the cell dry and then remove it from the car to empty the last little bit out. Since my car has easy access it is not to much trouble.I have also been told it is acceptable to fill completely and leave it closed over the winter. I don't favor this as I personally feel that Race fuel will "go Flat" over a period of months and you would want to remove it before using the car again anyway.Dave

[Darren Brown]

I actually do the opposite. I fill it to the very top of the filler. A aircraft mechanic told me a few years ago told me that the fumes left in the cell mixed with the air is what cause the foam to break down. Who knows if that is true, but that is what I have been doing since 2002 with no problems.

Darren

[thomschoon]

Just got a new bladder built with the help of Neil Porter (great outfit by the way) talked to the people at Fuel safe and they said empty or full but nothing in between as it is the air/fumes that cause the problems.

[Rick Kirchner]

Interesting.

Empty? Well there's no way to get it empty and free of fumes unless you fill it with water and drive the fuel off the top. Temperature cycling a bladder full of water over the winter doesn't sound like a good idea, not only could it freeze and split the bladder, but it creates a perfect environment for condensation, which will have a hard time getting out of the container and probably provide the perfect environment for bimetallic corrosion between the floor and the frame. And all of the antifreeze solutions are probably not a good bet for prolonged contact with the bladder.

Full? Fuel is a solvent. The longer solvent is in contact with a material the more it dissolves. It will dissolve the material until it reaches saturation. The more solvent, the more dissolution is possible.

The fuel + air argument would indicate that there's some kind of oxidation going on that requires the fuel. I'm sure the bladders will oxidize, but I'm not sure I buy the need for fuel to do it, unless the fuel breaks down in the presence of air into more nasty solvents than it already is. But, at least there won't be much of it.

I'd vote for empty, if for no other reason than a slow leak won't fill your car and garage with gas while you are off skiing over christmas.

[DaveW]

I've been storing mine full every winter for over 30 years and have not had a related problem. The key, IMO, is to use a fuel with no alcohol in it, preferably a pure leaded race fuel, such as Sunoco 110 purple, or Avgas, which don't seem to degrade either themselves or the cell over long storage periods, as long as direct contact with air (oxygen) is minimized.

[Rick Kirchner]

Anyone out there have a good explanation for what the presence of air does in this process?

[DaveW]

Anyone out there have a good explanation for what the presence of air does in this process?

I'm not a chemist... But, that being said, I was not saying that the fuel cell(s) were sealed or topped-off completely - that would not be very practical. What I've done is to fill the cell as much as possible w/o spillage. The fuel evaporates somewhat and mostly displaces the air after a while. You just don't want to leave just a little bit of fuel in the cell along with a large quantity of air. That leads to air breathing in and out of the cell with temperature changes, evaporating the remaining fuel, bringing in moisture and fresh oxygen for oxidation reactions to occur, and turning the residual amount of remaining fuel to varnish.

[steve zemke]

When you store it full, do you add a fuel stabilizer to it? What do you do with the fuel in the spring?

[DanW]

I have nowhere near others' experience of storing race gas, but I have always filled the fuel tank on my old Elan full with premium unleaded just before the Christmas holiday.

Sometimes I would remember to add Stabil, sometimes not. It never seemed to make a difference. Stabil is mostly heavy solvent naptha and napthalene, and some other additive in very small percentage quantity.

This year I stored my FF for the winter with a full cell of Sunoco 110 leaded. No stabilizer. When I started it up in March, it fired right up. The colder the weather, the less fuel oxidizes or evaoprates. The vapor pressure of the fuel drops the colder it gets, so there is less evaporation. Vapor may condense in a vent line low spot and act as a vapor trap too. There is likely a slight drop in octane, due to some loss of the light ends(propane-butane). It would also affect the distillation curve, which affects throttle response..

Since our race gas usually has no ethanol or methanol(oxygenate), there is far less oxidation like modern pump gas.

Gary Adams of Fuel Safe advised to store the cell full of race gas so the bladder does not collapse and keep the foam covered, so thats what I do.

[D.T. Benner]

The bladder will collapse away from the walls of whatever contains it. Refilling it streches it back out to the containment structure. That put stress on the relaxed seams and edges.
I bought a car from someone who stored it for 4 years with the cell empty and sealed. First time I filled it the corners/edges leaked.
I store mine full and sealed over the winter. 4 cars and 25 years with no problem.
I do pump out the gas and use it in "Non" racing aplications.

[DaveW]

"When you store it full, do you add a fuel stabilizer to it? What do you do with the fuel in the spring?"

I've never used a fuel stabilizer in a fuel bladder - I am afraid of what it might do the the foam and bladder. I just use the fuel in a test session. Fuels like Sunoco 110 do not deteriorate noticeable over the winter.

[Darren Brown]

I was told by the guy that used to sell the Philips race gas here in Texas that race fuel (probably av gas as well) would last years in a closed container. I do not remember the reason he gave me though.

I parked my FC when I bought my DSR. Over a year later I pulled out the Swift and charged the battery, changed the oil and it fired right up. Before I parked it, I filled the cell to the top with av gas. The gas looked new (still blue), and smelled the same as the new gas in the can.

Darren

[cooleyjb]

In the last couple of years I've had the chance to see 4-5 cells that had foam that was turning to dust. It was always the worst at the bottom of the cell where the foam was always in contact with fuel even when the cell was pretty much empty.

YMMV but from that experience I don't think that the fumes are the problem, it's the fuel.

[DaveW]

In the last couple of years I've had the chance to see 4-5 cells that had foam that was turning to dust. It was always the worst at the bottom of the cell where the foam was always in contact with fuel even when the cell was pretty much empty.

YMMV but from that experience I don't think that the fumes are the problem, it's the fuel.

I agree, but IMO, what kills fuel cell foam is gas with ethanol/methanol and "rocket fuel." As long as it is stored with good race gas, it should be OK, per my experiences.

[jcorsico]

How do you guys set up the car with fuel for the off season?
Stabil?
Flush everything?
?

If you are running a fuel with ethanol, you should drain the tank.

http://www.atlinc.com/download.php?f...anolNotice.pdf

If you are going to store the cell for a long time, the safest bet is to take it out of the car and wash it out, and then store the whole thing dry. I recongnize that is not terribly realistic for winter storgage (I don't bother to do it... I just drain the gas).

http://www.atlinc.com/download.php?f...fetyBullet.pdf

Jon

[steve zemke]

Thanks to everyone who answered my question.

[Dick R.]

FYI: I have an 85 Van Diemen I purchased in 1991 and use for autocrossing. Still has the orginal cell. It never has more than 4 gallons of Exxon premium unleaded gas and frequently drops down to less than one gallon over the winter. Each Spring I pump out the old gas and replace it with a few gallons of fresh Exxon premium unleaded. Add gas as needed during the season. Car lives in a usually unheated but still reasonable temperature detached garage. Never use Stabil for fear of what it might do. I know my foam, etc. are on borrowed time and/or alcohol or some other nasty additive will show up in the street gas I use but so far, so good. I do have a see through fuel filter (which I would NOT run on the track since the housing appears to be glass).

Dick
Raleigh, NC

[Jim Gustafson]

Never drained the fuel, never added fuel, never had a problem.


Jim Gustafson
Racing Since 1970

[sracing]

From a cell life standpoint. Both majors recommend that you either fill the cell to the top, or drain it completely and let air dry. (for long term storage,). If you are using a fuel that contains alcohol I would drain it. Neither company's tech people would stand by their cells ability to withstand 10% alcohol. (allthough they did say they have some cells in venues running E85 with no problems yet.)

[adamb113]

Ok got it
I'll fill it to the top. Completely drain it. Air it out. Fill it with water. Drain that. Add Stabil. No fill it with Stabil. No forget the Stabil. Fill it with airplane gas if I'm going to store it for two years. No wait that was add blue die than smell it then store it for two years. No store it for two years than look if it's blue than smell it but don't use it in the race car but put it in my street car which hasn't been in storage. But now that the storage gas is in my street car I can store my street car. So now I can't use my street car and I need more race fuel for my race car. Take my wife's car get more airplane fuel that is blue and bring it back and put it in my race car. Get rid of the glass fuel filter and make sure to not get any air into the tank when I'm putting the fuel in. That part I memorized. Now I'm looking at my notes. Dissolve the foam with alchohol and collapse the bladder with a vacuum. After the fumes from the gas get to the vacuum motor and it blows up go back to the airport and get more gas. Stop by the hospital and gets the burns looked at on the way back. Put the new race fuel in the race car...which has no fuel cell anymore because it blew up. Dammnit!!! Buy a fuel cell from Neil Porter. Tell him he's a nice guy or something. Don't ever put fuel or water or air or alchohol or stabil in this fuel cell if you want it to last. Actually don't put it into the race car. Just keep it in the house.

Thanks Guys
Adam

[D.T. Benner]

Is worth every cent you paid for it...
But really what we have here is people sharing what works for them. You have to decide what sounds like the best for you.
I did like your answer though! I think we have all done the same in our heads if not on the page.

[adamb113]

How about the carb?

[adamb113]

Does anybody drain the carb bowl or put another fluid in there to protect the seals?

[sracing]

Since most all carbs are full of fuel their full life, seals aren't much of an issue. However, when the carb sits and the fuel evaporates, it can leave heavy deposits that will plug bleed and fuel jets. So it is a good idea to empty the carb before long term storage.

[cooleyjb]

So another datapoint. I just replaced a fuel cell in my car this weekend. The build date is 2001 and it's been in the car since then. The cell had some wear points that were leaking. One on a seam and one in the middle of a panel.

However I did play with the foam a lot. The original yellow foam was anywhere from a dark orange to a mid-range orange. I pull the foam out and tried to tear it, crush it, compare it to the brand new foam that they pack the cells in from ATL.

I couldn't really tell much difference in my unscientific method. This was in a cell that has most likely seen 10% ethanol occasionally (SRF).

[adamb113]

ok Good

So what about storing dead bodies? Refrigerate or just bleed and let dry in the sun.

[Larry]

It's totally dependent upon what you intend to do with the dead bodies!

Larry Oliver

[Joby Graham]

WWTD?

What would Tony (Soprano) do?
-And whatever happened to the Russian in the Pine Barrens?

[cooleyjb]

ok Good

So what about storing dead bodies? Refrigerate or just bleed and let dry in the sun.

What do you think I'm doing with the old cell?