Change FC?

[Ron B.]

Thomas,

I thought I would try to clear this up a bit. The current “Pro” chassis is the very same as your 00/01. They run a different nose and shocks but those items are completely FC legal. If #2 were passed and you put 6s and 8s on a Pro Zetec car it would be a legal FC car.

I hope this helps.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. My apologies for assuming that was common knowledge.

[D.T. Benner]

Something most of you may not know is that the Pro Zetec package for 2003 included the switch to 8" and 10" wide wheels to AD mechanical grip because the rear wing was moved forward and the front wing changed to Decrease aero grip. This was done to hopefully make for better close racing without cars loseing aero from cars ahead. So just changing to 6" and 8" wide wheels does not make Zetec cars the same as 98-02 cars. Just FYI.

[TimW]

If the Zetec is allowed at a 5%-10% penalty (weight, hp, whatever) until the numbers come up, doesn't that motivate to never get rid of the pinto which would be driving the class into the state of FF? I wouldn't invest in the converstion/purchase a car if I had no control of when it could be competitive.

[BrooksHall]

Look the Ztec cars need FC more than FC needs the Ztec cars. We were the 3rd highest subscribed class in 03. What happens if the Ztec isn't allowed? Well the pro guys have no place to send their old equipement. Again I don't believe that 65 odd cars should dictate the future of over 1000. If you guys want to play in our sandbox then I believe you should have to earn the numbers.

[size="1"][ December 30, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[Dan Bruggeman]

I think the FC class is a great class in the level of competition, speed and safety it provides. I don’t think there’s a bigger bang for the buck. When I bought my slightly used (Pro) RF-01, I paid about the same as what a new Ztech is going for. Given the option today I don’t think there’s anyone who wouldn’t take the Ztech over the Pinto, if it were allowed in the class.
Little steps or changes are easier to make than great hurdles. I’m not moving from my Pinto anytime soon so improving the Pinto parts is an easy way to stretch the racing dollar. Is there anyone interested in updating their car? Rebuilding or updating an older car is one way or, you could buy a brand new Pinto? Doesn’t quite seem to make sense when there are other options like the FSCCA car out there.
Evolution ensures the future existence.
I’m voting the “Marshall Plan.”

[TimW]

Originally posted by BrooksHall:
Look the Ztec cars need FC more than FC needs the Ztec cars. We were the 3rd highest subscribed class in 03. What happens if the Ztec isn't allowed? Well the pro guys have no place to send their old equipement. Again I don't believe that 65 odd cars should dictate the future of over 1000. If you guys want to play in our sandbox then I believe you should have to earn the numbers.

Having lived through the CART/IRL debacle first hand, I would suspect FC needs the Zetec and the Pro Zetec group needs FC for either to be successful long term. It shouldn't be us or them. Find solutions that allows both groups to prosper with complementary synergies. I agree that the investment club members have made in their pinto equipment should not be immediately obsolete, but if the class sticks with antique equipment while other formulae flourish with simple & cheap plug & play EFI engines then you're just delaying your obsolescence.

[Thomas Copeland]

I agree with Micheal, we should make them change the wings, the wheels, and the tires. So under that context the pro cars wouldn't be legal in FC as is. They are not compliant. This was what I was thinking. But thanks Darrell (DT) and Ron (and Jim) for clarifying things. Glad we're past that one...or are we?

[TOM SABIEL SR.]

Kevinfirlein I just wanted to say I think you are right, CHEAPER PARTS, we do not have to reinvent the wheel here. Tom sr.

[JByers]

This has been a interesting thread, but I believe we can debate the pro's and con's until 2005. In the intrest moving forward we should define what would be best for FC's future. The pinto has been an excellent platform over the past 20 years, but that motor, like the 1600 motor, will experience supply shortages. The FF group has seen better days and hopefully it is on the rebound with the current and future replacement parts. In the mean time the values of the FF's have deminished and the car counts are down at the national level. To waite for SCCA to accept replacement parts for the 2000cc pinto may a long process. With the help of people like Sandy and Steve I'm sure it can happen. In the intrem what will happen to the car counts? How many people will pass up on the class and go to FSCCA? What will happen to the value of your car? Is everyone willing to make that gamble a carburated motor is the future of the FC?

To date the Zetec is the only motor that has been proven to be a viable option to the pinto motor. No one else has spent the time and money to fit something else into a FC and presented it to SCCA. If properly regulated the Zetec and pinto can coexist without degrading the value of the pinto. I have already stated that I am in favor of the "Marshall Plan". So in the intrest of moving forward, I am starting a new thread called "Pro Marshall Plan", that will help us develope a business plan for the future of FC which can be presented to SCCA.

Jason Byers

[Chris Dona]

There seem to be two separate issues here, one is to allow the current pro Zetec package ’04 rules into FC with a restrictor from Sandy and/or weight penalty. This will noticeably increase the participation numbers in FC by allowing current Zetec owners running in FA to come in if they choose to run the restrictor and allow the Pro teams to run their cars during club weekends in FC to get less experienced drivers some track time. Both would help stop the erosion of the FC class and return it to a feeder to the Pro series.

The second issue to reducing costs for current competitors so they don’t move on to FSCCA, Zetec’s, Fran-Am, F-BMW, etc. For all ’98 and up cars the Zetec kit has already been created and debugged by the Pro teams. The cost may not be $5K but what is the fact that there is a quality package already available worth?? The largest advantage I see is the fast that the Zetec engine mounts to the current bellhousing adaptor and fits the engine bay as is. Any other motor would require big development $$$$ to create a kit to update the 98-04 chassis. I think the costs are fairly clear, but I can post complete info if someone would like, I went through the analysis to convert my RF01 to Zetec specs. Pinto will be legal and have a HP advantage as is currently spec’d forever.

What do you guys think, is this way off? I feel these need to be addressed separately, they are two different options to stop the reduction in FC participation.

Its great we have another modern engine option already developed for us unlike FF. We are only 1-2 years away from the current situation FF is in, no new blood, everyone is already buying FSCCA cars because nobody is going to spend 3-5K per season on engine rebuilds to compete at Nat’ls when you can run the FSCCA for 5 years on the original motor and only go 1 second a lap slower, FSCCA will have larger more competitive fields than FC if things don’t change very soon! 130 new car sales in year #1.

- Chris

[Chris Dona]

and Andy's got it right. Jon is smart allowing the Pro teams to shape the future of the Zetec series. The carbon tub V8 deal is seperate.

- Chris

[John Green]

Jeez, this is wearing me out!!! I've almost forgotten the details of the Marshal Plan.
The pro's have the budget to race in various configurations. If a Zetec wants to run FC let them adopt the rules currently in place.... FC tires & wheels, any wing or shock configuration. Whats the point in opening regional and nationals to Pro spec Zetec's....so they can come practice with the club racer and screw up our races???
Let us improve the Pinto with better intenal parts and put a restricter on the Zetec and lets race. I've been doing this for 20+ years and I race a car, not an engine. I want 145 horsepower and I don't care if it comes from old or new technology. Besides, I still havn't figured out how a carburator works....I have no chance of figuring out an ECM and injection. I Just want it to start when I hit the button.

[M.L.Sauce]

We must be careful when we create a plan to include the Zetec cars into FC.The Zetecs cannot have any advantage and it would probably be more popular with some performance disadvantage.I think it is enevitable that these cars should be in FC in close to current form.The restrictor is necessary and the tires should be the same size as the current FC.I would urge everyone concerned to contact your Director and let them know.Decisions like this take some time to get through the process.I own two FC cars,one VD and one Sauce and I think FC is the last stand for non spec open wheel racing in the SCCA.FF numbers are down again as with FC but overall FC is still strong Nationally.I would not waste alot of time debating
the situation,conduct a poll , make the SCCA aware of it and move forward.Remember the FC owners ultimately have the most to gain and the most to loose.Every open wheel class in club racing will be affected as F/SCCA cars are delivered and more sold.The health of open wheel non spec formula car racing is at a crossroads.

[Marc Miller]

I think people have a few misconceptions...

1. The so-called "pro" racer in the series may or may not have the same budget that MANY guys use on a regional and national level. Please don't assume that if you run in the pro series.. you have gobs of money.. MANY guys did the series this year with very LITTLE money.. the cost of getting to the runoffs for MANY national guys was more than nearly half of the zetec guys budgets.

2. If you open up the rules to allow restricted zetecs.. you will NOT get 20 "pros" showing up to whoop on the little guy. Please get this out of your head.. you may get one or two..testing.. not getting in the way - but it also allows guys with limited budgets to jump in one of the pro teams zetecs to do a variety of things - such as a. shop before they buy, b. get their licence so THAY can be a fellow competitor bringing more membersjip to the class. c. Create revenue for temas that SUPPORT your class. d. Create yet another entry for FC.

All these are GOOD things... no one is proposing anything to "screw over" the FC racer - but to help it grow back in strentgh it once had years ago.

The last sentence in John's post is what it is all about. Help the current pinto guy retain value in their cars and make it less expensive to maintain and allow zetecs with a restrictor to make the balance both competitive. Let the buyer decide what they want - and let the industry supply and flourish as an industry.. not as a hobby.

All the best!

Marc Miller

Originally posted by John Green:
Jeez, this is wearing me out!!! I've almost forgotten the details of the Marshal Plan.
The pro's have the budget to race in various configurations. If a Zetec wants to run FC let them adopt the rules currently in place.... FC tires & wheels, any wing or shock configuration. Whats the point in opening regional and nationals to Pro spec Zetec's....so they can come practice with the club racer and screw up our races???
Let us improve the Pinto with better intenal parts and put a restricter on the Zetec and lets race.

[Jim Nash]

Someone has kidnapped Mike! Will the real Mike Sauce please post something? What’s with this milk toast, middle of the road, completely rational but totally non-committal thing?

"The health of open wheel non spec formula car racing is at a crossroads". Mike, you sound like a politician. What happened? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Jim Nash

[Marc Miller]

Mike is running for SCCA board of directors!!! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

mm

[Charles Warner]

Another issue, although tangentially, involves the entrance into the FC world of not only the Zetec powered cars, but the Pro Teams. Sure, not all Pro Teams are multi-bazillion dollar budgets, but some are. This happened when they let the pro atlantics run club races. Maybe the engine formula had been weighted to make it "fair" but how about the other level of prep? Kyle Krisiloft comes to Memphis with the full blown Pro Atlantic trailer, 8 guys, two cars, set-up platforms, groupies, eleventy-seven sets of new sticker tires, and pit scooter and war wagons costing more than our cars. His set-up wheels cost more than some cars! And this is for a little ole national.

Yet, the motors were equivalent - according to the Club. That makes it fair, right? Guess who got the contingiencies?

The system of allowing a "pro" set-up of any type can have disastrous effects on the budgets of the club racer. Now, with a small amount of changing, a pro team can use the club races as test sessions (not too bad as entries go up) and also as methods of recouping a small part of their budget. Just because the engines are "restricted" does not remove the "unfair" advantage these guys have when you add in the other equipment. When the atlantic guys realized they could get the contingiencies offered at the nationals it was amazing how many pro cars turned up. They also take away front place finishes from club guys thereby making it more difficult to attend the run-offs. When the pro guys write up their monthly sponsor reports it gives them a little more credence when they show their sponsors that they won a couple of NATIONAL races that month. Looks great, no? So, the local club guy, devoted to his level of racing, with the potential to win a national, winds up 3rd or 4th? Lemme see: this is good for the FC class?

IMHO, any ideas of trying to give the pro guys a place to play is moot. They are racers who have decided to play in another sandbox. We, as a club, have no need to provide them a place to play. A pro series should be able to stand on its own.

That said, if there is a reason, from a Club standpoint, to let them into our sandbox, then it should be considerd. The cost-benefit ratio should only consider the effects on the Club and its racers: not the effects on the Pro guys.

IOW, does the class really need a new motor? (and Why?) If so, what would the costs be to the average club racer, and what would the benefits be to the same?

[BrooksHall]

My last post on this subject (yes you all can applaud now)! It was said earlier that the parts supply will soon run out for the 2l absolutely not true! If we allow other manufactures to supply pistons/rods/cams then there are many many places to get parts.

As for budgets for pro guys I can only speak for the west coast guys who forced to go back east because of the unfullfiled promise of a west coast series. They were spending 10k per event so that is no regional race budget.

[BrooksHall]

Ok Ok my absolute last post. This was written my Rick Kichner and it's a little history lesson that we Pinto guys should pay attention to.

Contributing Member/Moderator
Member # 522

posted December 27, 2003 03:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve - I was going to write a bit on the WC SV trickle down in the eighties, but the post was too long. It is a good lesson learned, and a good reason to have folks reason this stuff out carefully. It is probably the only case where a class of ex-pro cars was introduced into a lower class and then moved UP.

So, under the headline of those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it, Steve, correct me where I'm wrong.

If I recall the history of FC, we started with tube-frame F3 based cars with a high-RPM crossflow engine. I don't know for sure, but those chassis could be FF, F2(FB), or F3(FC) just by changing the motor, brakes, and wheels, so I'd bet that when they got too expensive to run, guys converted them to FF (I know a couple of vintage FB guys who found their cars advertised as FFs).

In any case, the pro SV guys needed a place to get rid of their old cars starting with the move from 1600 TyIII to TyIV motors and the introduction of tubs in '72, so they were allowed into FC sometime thereafter (not sure of the date). Sometime after the rabbit cars arrived in '75, they were allowed into FC running carbs. Then later, the wheels got bigger, the 1800 engine arrived, and injection was allowed, and these cars were just way too fast for FC, so they were moved to FA, and I believe the older WC cars were forced to follow, because the current rules in FC only allow vintage FCs, Air Cooled SV, and F2000. If memory serves me right, these cars (Ralt-RT5s, Shannons, a couple of Marches, and Martinis) did OK in FA until the arrival of full-carbon tubs and the Toyota motor. But, if you had a flat-bottom, carburated, 1600cc WC SV with 6's and 8's (Ralt RT1s, Lolas, most Marches), you were pretty much hosed.

And the air cooled guys, well, you could spend a boat-load of money on new aero stuff and hand-grenade motors to run near the back of the F2000 pack. The best AC SV chassis technology was barely comparable to the early 80's rocker arm F2000's. The board never allowed good rods and custom pistons (all stock VW!), so you got the compression by flycutting the heads, which takes out the first cooling fin and causes the heads to crack - AND you had to do mickey mouse stuff like turning valves into cutters to make reliefs in the pistons, cutting rods in half to make stronger rod caps, etc, etc. Nobody was going to put up with that for long - and I guarantee you there are few truly legal Vintage air-cooled SV's (at least in terms of rods and pistons) because it makes no economic sense whatsoever. VARA recently split SV into three distinct classes:

1700cc air cooled non-winged chassis on treaded tires (essentially 1972 and earlier) FSV-1

1600cc water-cooled flat-bottomed chassis, and air-cooled winged cars with 2000cc motors (a combo never allowed in the SCCA) on 6s and 8s - FSV-2

Everything else: ground effects, injection, 1800cc motors, 8s and 10s, FSV-3.

Maybe the older cars do need to go away, for safety issues if nothing else (my AC SV is a deathtrap). But it should be done on a well thought out, scheduled basis with appropriate input from the affected parties, and not by decree from above.

My point in all of this rambling, and it's a little different than Steve's, is that pro trickle-down is a tradition in this class, BUT! It's been done badly in the past. The only guys that lucked out were the early FC/F3 guys that converted to FF (hey, that could still happen!). I remember a lot of butchered AC SV tubs converted to WC or with strange ground effects added. My '72 Royale was butchered up that way.

[Rob Klein]

I'm all for letting the Zetec configuration to run in FC BUT, they must be restricted and run the FC tire combination. Reason: We have a 98 Pinto converted to the 02 specs, now if I want to run a Zetec, I have to run a new front and rear wing package, buy new wheels just to be FC compliant. If it isn't handeled this way, we will have several combinations of cars on the track and Tech will never keep up.

This whole topic is about FC participation numbers and money.

Yes, we can stay with the Pinto motor and have reliability upgrades which, is a patch for the real problem but, at the same time I can't see having to put the following on my car.

Zetec motor conversion 15000.00 (est)

Front and Rear wing package Unknown

3 sets of 8" and 10" wheels 5000.00 (est)

If the Zetec's cars want to run in FC, run the restricted motor and FC compliant wheels and tires, if not stay in FA.

Rob

[John Green]

Thanks Charlie....you said it the way I wanted to only better!

[andyllc]

Ok so I dont want this thread to end anytime soon so why not stir it up some. Whats the record for longest thread on this site?
Anyways, the Zetec is about saving money for those that say that is their objective. I have paid for one engine rebuild that last two seasons and I have done at least 8000 miles and my engine (not mine anymore) isnt going to be rebuilt for a while yet. If you think the conversion price is too much then right now you can buy a used zetec for only a little more than what you could sell your 98 or newer Van Diemen Pinto for so the "cost of conversion" would be minimal. Eventually the cost may come down it may not. Everyone wants to talk about the future well why do you want to deal with old technology longer than you have to? We are not NASCAR, we (most of us) dont want to be a part of NASCAR or even admit to liking it so why keep carbs? Why keep paying for rebuilds in a pinto every thousand miles that will cost the same amount of money that a zetec rebuild will cost yet you only have to rebuild a zetec every 5000 miles, at least? Converting to a zetec would pay for itself in a year or two depending on how often you rebuild your pintos. How can anyone argue that in the long run it will be more expensive to run zetec when the budgets of the pro series dropped at least 15K in the first year and dropped yet again in the second year than when pintos were around? How can zetecs prove themselves with numbers? What pro series has "1000" entries? People claim that there are only 65 or so zetecs around but what do you expect? The purpose of the Zetec right now is for the pro series only. Nobody buys a zetec expecting to win in atlantic. there may be much fewer zetecs in the country than pintos but zetec numbers are climbing and pinto numbers are decreasing. it would be great if zetecs were allowed into FC, I think the numbers would skyrocket then. How many pintos were at the runoffs in 03? How many zetecs normally showed up for the pro series this year? the numbers might be closer than you think. the pro series and the scca club racing can work together and would benefit everyone involved. the pro series doesnt "need" the club racers in order to get rid of their equipment because they dont need to get rid of anything. The chassis don't break anymore because the engines are so much better and the engines dont normally break because they are just that much better. Last rant and Im done. Why on earth would you make the zetecs convert to the old wings and tires to run scca. You will never get the pro guys to come race because it is a huge hassle in setup differences plus the testing would be pointless. Let the zetecs run in pro spec, give them a restrictor I dont care but dont change anything else or it will be pointless. If the person that only ever wants to do club racing wants a zetec with the old wings and tires to save that money in conversion costs then fine, I dont think they will go quicker or slower than if they changed those things but it shouldnt be mandatory to run the old wings and tires, that will just hurt the cause. the more people that run in pro spec though the more the two groups can work together.

sorry for the rant, i swore to myself i was done with my last post but hopefully this will be it (but i doubt it)

jon, youre buying me dinner at sebring!

[BrooksHall]

So basically your saying allow the pro cars in as is an obsolete the rest of us. That makes perfect sense all the pinto guys can just flush our investments right down the toliet. I see absolutely no reason that less than 70 people should dictate the future of this class especially since the future of your own series isn't solid. You cars could be extinct in 06 according Mr. Baytos. Im sorry Andy but untill there are legitiment numbers in the Ztec ranks it's not fair to put the rest of us at a dissadvantage. You guys can race with FA for now so it's not like you don't have a place in the SCCA.

[andyllc]

No I said to go ahead and put a restrictor just dont do anything else
Zetecs WILL NOT be extinct in 06. Baytos wants a series to rival Atlantics and Fran Am V6 (if it ever happens). He isn't replacing Zetec at all. With the CART ladder there was formula dodge, barber dodge, atlantic, cart. Baytos wants fscca, zetec, v8 car. Zetec isnt going anywhere and he never said it was, read his post carefully. it is something he is considering, in addition, not instead.

[Thomas Copeland]

Charles, you said it one post what I've been trying to say in half a dozen. Guess I'm just not articulate enough.

"The system of allowing a "pro" set-up of any type can have disastrous effects on the budgets of the club racer."

Regardless about how I feel about whether pro series cars are FC compliant or not I'm aganist SCCA Option 2 for these 3 reasons:

1. Immediately devalues every Pinto-powered FC in the class by at least 20%. Maybe more. That's our $$ going bye-bye.

2. If we wanted to convert to Zetec the cost is too high. At least 15K. Not an acceptable alternative if you already have a Pinto car.

3. Doesn't provide an reasonably cost effective alternative to Pinto. This is what this class really needs. We need to address the issue of a new engine. Not whether we are going to become a dumping ground for ex-pro series cars which is all SCCA Option 2 does.

[size="1"][ December 31, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Thomas Copeland ][/size]

[Aiken Racing]

Being a dumping ground is a good thing. It is cheap equipment. This whole thing about pro guys and their setups is rediculous. It boils down to the driver. There is always someone with more money out there. Who cares what they show up with. Under the "Marshall Plan" do really think a top gun pro effort is going to go to the trouble to convert their pro cars down to club specs to actually learn something. I think not. Why go to the expense to run something that is not going to give them REAL feed back. If they have got that type of budget, they will just rent a track somewhere to get quality track time running their Pro setup/configuration without all the traffic. Let's keep things in perspective. A guys paddock setup and crew does not dictate the result. Look at Tim Minor. Now there is a guy who has the talent without the fancy setup who could go to any pro Zetec race and do VERY well. Enough said??

[andyllc]

I agree with Marshall totally.
One thing I have never seen is a Pro Atlantic team at a national. NEVER. Im not saying it hasn't happened but I certainly haven't seen it. I know Lynx doesnt, DSTP (when they existed) didnt, same goes for Shank, and really everyone else. P1 MIGHT have and BBGP MIGHT have but with national drivers not pro drivers and I certainly never saw it. Former pro atlantic cars race in SCCA nationals (there wouldn't be FA if it weren't for that, every car out there was once a pro car) but with national drivers that own their own cars. Those of you that say you have been around racing 20 years, well I haven't even been living that long yet I have seen 8 f2000 teams at least race in nationals back in the pinto days. I am not going to name them in here but if you really want me to list them email me andybrumbaugh@msn.com and I will tell you which ones. So if it was ok then, why is it such a terrible thing now? Remember when Kyle Krisiloff showed up with his big rig and his Atlantic cars, he was still just a club racer. He hadn't competed in ANY pro races at that point and he certainly isn't the first one to have nice equipment.

[Steve Thomson]

I wouldn't be too harsh on the pro series. Who can deny that the Export A, Hooters and the East West FF2000 series were not instrumental in the growth of FC.

Quite a few of you guys have cars from those series, and if we let them steer to far away from us, we might not have cars in the future.
At the risk of being redundant, we need to keep the link to the pro series alive. I believe it is THE reason it became as popular as it is.

Let the pro cars run with the 6" and 8" wheel/tire combo and restrictor if they want to run with us. It's that easy.

Steve

[size="1"][ December 31, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Steve Thomson ][/size]

[Mike B]

Where is this big Pro/club crossover that everyone talks about? There's nothing currently preventing a pro Zetec team from racing in an SCCA club event, but they're not. You guys talk about the 60-70 Zetec cars that would suddenly show up in FC on their off weekends but they aren't doing it now. Even at the Cat National at Road America, 1 week before the Pro race, there were maybe 3-4 Zetecs in FA. Likewise, current FC cars are able to race in ACC (FREE, for Chrissakes!) but there's never more than 3-4 at each event. Why?

In a separate thread, Marshall Aiken mentions that us guys with RF90-96 cars (and there is a LOT of us)wouldn't upgrade because of the cost. We won't upgrade because we CAN'T. Not without significant fabrication skills the likes of Pat Prince or Tom Johnson (remember him?)
BUT, when the Zetec is approved, and performance creep occurs (and it will), everyone with a 98 or newer will convert because they have to in order to keep up with the Zetecs. That leaves the hundreds of 96 and older cars out in the cold. Why lose several HUNDRED FC cars just to include 60-70 Zetec cars? The potential is there to have the opposite effect of what is intended.
I'm tired of the Club catering to the Pro series. A couple years ago the FC min. weight was increased, ostensibly so more club cars could compete in the pro series. So what happened? The pro series changed the engine and LOWERED the min. weight! WTF?!
Did the SCCA then lower the min. weight? Hell no.
It's a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

My final thought: I encourage everyone to read and re-read Kevin Firlein's and Charles Warner's post (except that stuff about letting the Zetecs in FC )

[KevinFirlein]

I am agaisnt changing rules to match a pro series ( moving targets) but that has nothing to do with not wanting to race against them. If rules and specs are the same its my job to beat them and if i cant its my fault not theirs. Quality competition just raises everyones game. The runoffs would benefit greatly if the likes of Cape Motorsport returned. dont know about anyone else but ive never seen a race won by a groupie.

Back to the topic, anyone with a pro spec zetec is perfectly legal atm for club racing in FA. Of course they dont want to race there cause they arent competitive. Save the stores of " so so won FA in a zetec", if it happens its cause the atlantics in question were horribly slow. That being the case why on earth would they agree to run in FC at a disadvantage to be back at the exact same point and now running even slower lap times while spending the same amount of money? If zetec is made legal in club racing it will be the engine to have. Just my take on the subject.

Kevin

[Curtis Boggs]

So,

How many people who were looking to get into FC, ..
are now turned off to it by this engine thread?

Care about numbers?, .. ..

Curtis
RFD

[Jesse Yorio]

you're right curtis - this forum has turned epic! it has two 'sister' discussions and one cousin poll going on over on the S2 board (those guys are pretty fired up too). seeing as they're all becoming repetitive i'm giving up reading and going to play with my new pinto powered FC. i bit the bullet and bought the pinto - although i remain in favor of the restricted zetec with FC wheels and wings (btw - lots of zetec guys still have their FC wheels and wings).

much like top-ticking the stock market, i'm pretty sure i'm one of the last dozen people to buy a pinto FC newer than '01.

[img]redface.gif[/img]

[M.L.Sauce]

OK you asked for it.Different Pro series cars have been allowed in Club Racing with the intentions of increasing the numbers.It goes far back FA,SCA,S2000,Olds Pro,FC even.And every time when the series lost funding or whatever the numbers of cars running usually dropped off with one exception FC(F2000).I don't think that any Pro series cares about the effect it has on club racing positive or negative.My opinion is to take care of FC as it is with motors and parts for existing motors.The health of FC will only be temporarily helped, if at all if we can learn anything from Pro Racing history.How was that Mark,JEN?

[Aiken Racing]

The pro weight is 1220 and club is 1190. I don't know where you got that from. I think I am remembering that right.

Mike, I don't know how 97' and earlier cars fit into this whole zetec thing. Maybe they don't. Maybe they are stuck with only an upgraded and more reliable pinto motor. I know there are alot more 97' and older cars than there are 98' and newer cars, but do you really think a 94' VD and an 01' VD in the same drivers hands run the same laptimes. I don't think so or there would be more of the older cars showing up at the Runoffs. How fast you go depends on how much you are willing to spend. So again, I don't think all this applies to the older cars. (Unfortunately) Even if we solicit different engine manufacturers to come up with some options, I doubt they will grab a 92' VD to fit it into. Maybe there is a way to make all the cars accept a new motor. I don't know. I think it was a natural evolution that the Zetec was made to fit the newer chassis'. That is what the pro's were running at the time.

Mike, If a $7K zetec conversion was made to fit the older chassis' do you think guys w/ those cars would do it?? If they would spend the $ then I think we need to really look at that option as they are the majority.

I also don't see Zetec performance creeping. That's the whole idea behind the sealed motor.

Also, there has been alot of concern about not adopting the complete Pro Zetec rules package. I don't remember anyone saying that was an option. The only pro item that would be in FC is the Pro SEALED and RESTRICTED motor. That's all. All other FC rules stay the same. At least that is how I remember reading the proposed plan.

I also don't think 70 Zetecs will magically appear in FC once they are allowed. I do think they will filter in slowely over time. Plus the Pro guys are still using 1, 2 & 3 year old chassis'. They will eventually filter in though.

[Mike B]

Marshall,
You're right about the weight (actually it's 1230 for pro) but my point is the same: SCCA changed a rule supposedly to increase participation of club guys in the pro races, an increase that never materialized. I can see it now: after the Zetec is approved in FC, all the owners of the heavier Zetec will be lobbying for a higher min. weight. Again.
I also don't know if owners of older VDs would convert if the cost was $7k (or whatever.) Some would just to stay competitive with the Zetecs when they start taking the top 5 to 10 places at every race. If you still don't believe performance creep will occur, please re-read Kevin Firlein's post: http://www.apexspeed.com/ubb/ultimat...;f=14;t=000941

I agree with Steve T. that we should be thankful for the trickle-down of former pro cars (mine was one) but that era has come and gone. The pro series has chosen a separate path.

Besides, all this talk is about club guys converting to Zetec. If the concern is lack of new chassis coming into club racing, beef up the Pinto with better parts and let the pro guys convert to Pinto when they put the chassis out to pasture (I know, bad pun.) Or let the club guy buy a pro roller and convert it himself. I'll bet it costs a lot less to convert to Pinto from Zetec.

[Mike B]

Maybe I'm in denial, but I think that a well-developed RF94-95 can be competitive with an RF01. And by well-developed I don't mean just updated wings, lightened diff, or top-notch shocks. With some of the changes (big changes)I've made to my car, along with some more in the works, I think it will handle as good if not better than any other car. Unfortunately, I can't afford the horsepower to make the lap times so I may never be able to prove it. What was someone saying about cheaper Pinto parts?

[Aiken Racing]

All good points. I don't know how to do this and keep everyone happy. Maybe we leave it alone and hope for the best??

[Ben E]

There is a huge technology difference between the pinto and Zetec(EFI vs. carb) ect. SCCA should make a class for Zetec (Formula Zetec). FZ and FC could race together on the track but have two races i.e. the traditional FC, FF pairing. As the number of Zetec entries grow, they have a place to run. If a FC guy wants to convert to FZ, he has a place to race. He would also be able to sell his pinto parts because there is still a market for FC. This pairing also eliminates FC being combined with mazdas or atlantics which tend to get in the way because of their inequalities (lots of horsepower but slow in the corners). This way there is a market for FZ and FC and everyone can be happy. Even the pro guys who can test or sell off their old equipment.

[John Levy]

Bob Wright, Chris Dona, and Andy B have it right. How can we continue to piss away engine rebuild money on an ancient piece of engineering, when there is a hgihly reliable, economic, modern engine available? Unless you race rarely, the economics of going to a Zetec engine in FC are overwhelming. Not making the change is already chasing many of us into other classes.

[M.L.Sauce]

The Zetec is the future,see it or watch the class gradually thin out just like Formula Ford.The Pinto motors can be kept competitive and you would still have the choice to run it or convert it.Tell your director what you want, 05 will be here before you know it.