Class name change

[Jnovak]

May I suggest that we actually propose to the BOD that the name of this class be officially changed to F1000. A hundred letters wiill solve this problem.

How can you market an FB as a car, a class, or a race series.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[glenn cooper]

And there ya have it...

Boys - Let's get on this.

PS Is there anything in the GCR that states all Formula car class designations start with a "F"?

GC

[dc]

What exactly prompted the change originally from F1000 to Formula B? At the very start of this class here on ApexSpeed, it was F1000—and it made sense. Then when the SCCA got a hold of it, the name was changed suddenly.

Always seemed vanilla to me.

[John LaRue]

I am going from memory which is probably faulty, but I thought that Stan Clayton had put together a master plan for "re-alignment" of the formula car classes and 1000 fit in as FB between FC and FA.

[TimW]

What exactly prompted the change originally from F1000 to Formula B? At the very start of this class here on ApexSpeed, it was F1000—and it made sense. Then when the SCCA got a hold of it, the name was changed suddenly.

Always seemed vanilla to me.

To be European, but with letters. F1, F2, F3 <==> FA, FB, FC

I do see how it confuses what a F1000 is, but does make it simpler to understand how it fits in the bigger alphabet soup. But is that curing a symptom instead of the alphabet soup disease?

Is it true that Formula Ford when originally conceived was to be 1 step down from the F3 of the day and thus would have been F4, but then Ford got involved?

[formulasuper]

I figured there was a rule limiting the number of digits in a class designation such as the car numbers which are limited to 2 digits unless special approval by timing & scoring, however this is not the case. According to the 09' GCR section 9.3.28.B there is no limit to class letters. F1000 or F1K would seem more descriptive than FB. Now where the heck Formula "S" came from I'll never know! Maybe formula "secret"?

[RussMcB]

FB bothered me at first, but then realized it worked as well as FC and the others. FB seems a natural fit (performance wise) between FA & FC.

Probably too late for this to be raised as a problem now after being FB for two years.

[formulasuper]

FB bothered me at first, but then realized it worked as well as FC and the others. FB seems a natural fit (performance wise) between FA & FC.

Probably too late for this to be raised as a problem now after being FB for two years.

I dunno, FA = Formula Atlantic, FC = Formula Continental, FB = Formula Unknown? Maybe it should have been FU? Just kidding guys!

[Purple Frog]

What difference does it make? Do you northern folks have excess cabin fever?

I've been driving a "SF2000" in FC for years. Never had a problem figuring out when to go to grid.

I think even iPod afflicted 16 year old karting stars can figure out that a RFR1000 just happens to run in SCCA's FB class.

You guys need to go racin'... too much time on your hands.

[Phil Creighton]

I wasn't on the BOD when it was changed but I spent 10 years on the CRB and we were not allowed to change class designations - it was a member input/BOD issue and usually touchy to do. Fast forward a few years and it seems that the CRB has changed a number of class designations to better fit in the big scheme of things.

I don't think the BOD has strong feelings about this class designation so if you want a change then get everybody together and present a united front with as many actual documented owners and manufacturers as you can - don't do it in bits and pieces. Thats if you think it will actually help grow the class
Phil

[Stan Clayton]

Calm down guys, and flip open your 2009 CGR to page 228. At the bottom you will see that the name of the class is "Formula 1000". "FB" is the 2-letter identification required on the side of the car, same as FA for Atlantics, FC for Continentals, etc.

We tried to get "F1", but that name is trademarked by some tin-horn club in Europe that has just 18 or 20 cars per race...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled late winter cabin fever.

[Stan Clayton]

Oh...I see the problem. ApexSpeed calls the class "Formula B" instead of "Formula 1000".

Contrary to popular opinion, this website does not reflect official SCCA opinion...

Doug, please change the name to avoid further angst, will you?

See how easy that was?

[Matt King]

Calm down guys, and flip open your 2009 CGR to page 228. At the bottom you will see that the name of the class is "Formula 1000". "FB" is the 2-letter identification required on the side of the car, same as FA for Atlantics, FC for Continentals, etc.

It's always a bit of a letdown when facts ruin a good internet argument before it really gets started.

[dc]

Having two class names does nothing at all for class recognition. Don't blame the messenger. Pick a lane.

[Stan Clayton]

Having two class names does nothing at all for class recognition. Don't blame the messenger. Pick a lane.

[dc]

So what do you call it, Stan? What it's called in the GCR or what it's called on the side of the car? How many other classes do that? And how many of those succeed?

Go look through the forums here and see how many people call the class something different.




Sorry we're all not as "all knowing" as you are.

[Purple Frog]

Here's a unique idea. Leave it FB in SCCA.

Then some private corporation can create the "F1000 Championship Series" when you folks decide to up the ante, get serious, and go pro racing.

[Stan Clayton]

So what do you call it, Stan? What it's called in the GCR or what it's called on the side of the car? How many other classes do that? And how many of those succeed?

Go look through the forums here and see how many people call the class something different.

Sorry we're all not as "all knowing" as you are.

You don't have to be "all knowing" to read the GCR, Doug. The name of the class is and always has been "Formula 1000". Period. Dot. End of conversation.

"How many other classes do that?"

Every class in the GCR has a 2- or 3-letter identifier that is required to be on the side of the car, Doug. It isn't a question of having two names. The convention in SCCA for some decades has been to use the official abbreviation on the side of the car. It's like the rule requiring an SCCA sticker and your car's number on the sides and the nose of the car. This fact cannot be news to you.

"So what do you call it, Stan?"

I call it "Formula 1000" or "FB" as the mood and situation warrants, just like I call Atlantics Formula Atlantic, FA or simply Atlantics.

All I asked you to do is CORRECT the name on your website to avoid further controversy.

Would 100 letters help?

[Beartrax]

I dunno, FA = Formula Atlantic, FC = Formula Continental, FB = Formula Unknown? Maybe it should have been FU? Just kidding guys!

FB = Formula Bike, you know, bike as in motorcycle, where you git your engines.

IIRC - FS = Formula Super, which is an unlimited class. Perhaps that should be FU (Formula Unlimited)

Frog - I am from the North, but I do not have cabin fever. I ski! Heat wave coming on Saturday: predicted high is 53 degrees!

[D.T. Benner]

But some people mite get the meaning wrong?
(I'm a long time FS combatant)

[Mike B]

Here's a unique idea. Leave it FB in SCCA.

Then some private corporation can create the "F1000 Championship Series" when you folks decide to up the ante, get serious, and go pro racing.

I know there's a smiley face in your post so I hope you're being facetious:

www.formula1000.com

Yes, there are cash prizes involved.

[dc]

Maybe you are too close to see the forest for the trees, Stan, but the terminology "FB" means nothing to the class at all, in case you hadn't noticed. It stands for nothing, and has no relevance to anyone. SCCA is confusing the class with two distinctly different designations, which have no relevance to each other in the least. Jay has a point—pick a lane and stick with it. You're picking a fight where you don't need to. What started as a simple discussion point about starting with a consistent class name to help market and outwardly promote the class turned into cheap shots.

You might not be very marketing savvy or even care about outward appearances, but I have personally seen how it is confusing some people. "I thought they were F1000 cars?" or "what does the FB stand for if they are 1000cc motors?" At least FA and Formula Atlantic are logical assumptions of the same class name. You don't have to be Captain Picard to figure that out.

I didn't pick the Forum titles by accident, either. They are class designations set forth BY SCCA's OWN GCR. As with all other forums here, they are by CLASS. You know, the little letters on the side of your car. They originally were listed as F1000, but when the SCCA (and I'm guessing YOU by how personally you are taking this simple discussion) steered the ship in a different direction, we changed it for consistency purposes. I'm sure even you can see the logic in that, Stan.

And we're not changing them unless the SCCA does.


So what does the "B" stand for if all other classes are actual abreviations?

[Rennie Clayton]

I didn't pick the Forum titles by accident, either. They are class designations set forth BY SCCA's OWN GCR. As with all other forums here, they are by CLASS. You know, the little letters on the side of your car. They originally were listed as F1000, but when the SCCA (and I'm guessing YOU by how personally you are taking this simple discussion) steered the ship in a different direction, we changed it for consistency purposes. I'm sure even you can see the logic in that, Stan.

Doug,

I don't have a dog in this fight - Stan can wage his own battles - but the GCR does name the class "Formula 1000" right on page 228. The class letters, despite many insinuations to the contrary on this thread, are not the class name.

The forum label for FST isn't "Formula ST", after all...


Cheers,
Rennie

[Jnovak]

wow this is almost fun for my winter brain damaged brain.

I only have 1 comment: For marketing purposes we should commonize the name & the official class designation on the side of the car to something that the fans & spectators understand & has some relavance to what the class is.

Lets try some various ideas:

F1000 (it will fit if you try hard & you cannot mistake it for anything else)
F1K
F1_
F1B

The 1st is my favorite.

Thanks ... Jay

[Brands]

F1000 is good for me. I've done F1 and in no rush to go back!

Funnily enough I showed my new neighbour my car last weekend and aside from the 'how fast does it go' question and ineviatble 'oh, I thought it would be faster 'cos my bike is' he wanted to know what the FB was for. He got me there.....

[Northwind]

It sounds like it's TIME for Mike B. to get the Formula 1000 decals distibuted to those entered into to the series. And for all that are not entered they should place one of these decals on the side of their cars also. Maybe the F-1000 decal will give the identity that everyone is looking for to promote this class. Joining the series would also show how much support there is for this class even though it is in its infancy.The price is right!!

[Mike B]

It sounds like it's TIME for Mike B. to get the Formula 1000 decals distibuted to those entered into to the series. And for all that are not entered they should place one of these decals on the side of their cars also. Maybe the F-1000 decal will give the identity that everyone is looking for to promote this class. Joining the series would also show how much support there is for this class even though it is in its infancy.The price is right!!

Thanks for the plug...I think. Here's the decal that Dan is talking about. It was designed by Brad Ellingson of Repcon Media before F1000 was even proposed. Don't forget that we're also finalizing the artwork for the commemorative F1000 t-shirt that each registered competitor will receive. That's worth the price of admission right there!

[Stan Clayton]

Maybe you are too close to see the forest for the trees, Stan, but the terminology "FB" means nothing to the class at all, in case you hadn't noticed. It stands for nothing, and has no relevance to anyone.

Doug, maybe you are too young or too new to remember FB as an SCCA class, but that moniker has a long history in the Club. Back in the day when SCCA's formula classes were known as FA, FB, FC, FF and FV, FA sported 310 cubic inch ground pounders and FBs had 1600cc motors, mainly 2-valve Alfas, BMWs and Twin Cams.

The 5 liter FA combo eventually expired, so FB moved up to a position and was renamed Formula Atlantic in conjunction with SCCA sanctioning the pro series of the same name. The new FA (which was the old FB) got unrestricted 1600cc engines and eventually unrestricted aero -- and carbon tubs, full tunnels and Cosworth and Toyota 4v engines took over the class.

FC retained its name and for many years afterwards included the cats and dogs from F3 (including the Pinto F2000 cars, which came to dominate), FSV (air- and water-cooled SuperVees) and what our Canadian friends call F4 (motocycle powered tube-frame cars). After the 2005 Runoffs FC was restricted to the Pinto cars. FSVs had been FA-legal for years, but that still left the F4 cars with no National class.

Fast forward a couple of years to when the CRB recommended granting the "incubator classes", including Formula 1000, National status. The BoD approved the concept, and...reaching waaaaay back into the memory files, assigned the class the ID letters "FB".

So now you know the rest of the story. This has all been hashed out on these pages before, but it's all in there if one does a little searching.

They are class designations set forth BY SCCA's OWN GCR.

No, they aren't. The GCR does not include a "Formula B" class. Sorry.

You know, the little letters on the side of your car.

The "little letters on the side of your car" are the identification markings per page 68, as I noted before...NOT the name of the class.

And we're not changing them unless the SCCA does.

It's your website, Doug, do what you wish. Just know that SCCA has no plans to change the name of the class.

[Mike B]

Doug, maybe you are too young or too new to remember FB as an SCCA class, but that moniker has a long history in the Club. Back in the day when SCCA's formula classes were known as FA, FB, FC, FF and FV, FA sported 310 cubic inch ground pounders and FBs had 1600cc motors, mainly 2-valve Alfas, BMWs and Twin Cams.

The 5 liter FA combo eventually expired, so FB moved up to a position and was renamed Formula Atlantic in conjunction with SCCA sanctioning the pro series of the same name. The new FA (which was the old FB) got unrestricted 1600cc engines and eventually unrestricted aero -- and carbon tubs, full tunnels and Cosworth and Toyota 4v engines took over the class.

FC retained its name and for many years afterwards included the cats and dogs from F3 (including the Pinto F2000 cars, which came to dominate), FSV (air- and water-cooled SuperVees) and what our Canadian friends call F4 (motocycle powered tube-frame cars). After the 2005 Runoffs FC was restricted to the Pinto cars. FSVs had been FA-legal for years, but that still left the F4 cars with no National class.

Fast forward a couple of years to when the CRB recommended granting the "incubator classes", including Formula 1000, National status. The BoD approved the concept, and...reaching waaaaay back into the memory files, assigned the class the ID letters "FB".

So now you know the rest of the story. This has all been hashed out on these pages before, but it's all in there if one does a little searching.

Great history lesson, Stan. Thanks. It's also completely irrelevant in a club that claims it wants "new blood." Maybe the old codgers of the club like to reminisce about the old days and even try to revive them but the FB of old bears absolutely no resemblance to F1000, other than being open wheeled. And FB (or FA or FC for that matter) mean absolutely nothing to that new blood. Assign the class letters that don't take a lot of explanation (or don't have an explanation.)

And, no, I don't consider you an old codger.

[Stan Clayton]

Great history lesson, Stan. Thanks. It's also completely irrelevant in a club that claims it wants "new blood." Maybe the old codgers of the club like to reminisce about the old days and even try to revive them but the FB of old bears absolutely no resemblance to F1000, other than being open wheeled. And FB (or FA or FC for that matter) mean absolutely nothing to that new blood. Assign the class letters that don't take a lot of explanation (or don't have an explanation.)

And, no, I don't consider you an old codger.

Mike, I should be very sad if we had to name every new class "Formula Bling" because no one had any sense of history.

PS - I am an old codger. Heck, I remember "I like Ike" buttons...

[J Leonard]

I was just getting all set to run FB again with the twin cam ford in the Brabham. Now I find out I need a bike engine. I guess I better call George for that MV Agusta or did they make a 1000cc Norton?

[TimW]

Mike, I should be very sad if we had to name every new class "Formula Bling" because no one had any sense of history.

I'm sure the guys at Formula Mazda, Formula BMW & Formula Renault are all really sad they use easy to understand names and don't call their classes Formula Ford for sentimental reasons...since after all they are supposed to also be the cheaper feeder driver development classes as originally dreamed up in 1968...

[Stan Clayton]

I'm sure the guys at Formula Mazda, Formula BMW & Formula Renault are all really sad they use easy to understand names and don't call their classes Formula Ford for sentimental reasons...since after all they are supposed to also be the cheaper feeder driver development classes as originally dreamed up in 1968...

Just so, Tim. The difference being that each of those classes was initially external to SCCA, and created for their owners' own commercial interests...not an internally created SCCA class designed to fill a perceived niche, as was the case with FB.

[stonebridge20]

Doug, maybe you are too young or too new to remember FB as an SCCA class, but that moniker has a long history in the Club. Back in the day when SCCA's formula classes were known as FA, FB, FC, FF and FV, FA sported 310 cubic inch ground pounders and FBs had 1600cc motors, mainly 2-valve Alfas, BMWs and Twin Cams.

The 5 liter FA combo eventually expired, so FB moved up to a position and was renamed Formula Atlantic in conjunction with SCCA sanctioning the pro series of the same name. The new FA (which was the old FB) got unrestricted 1600cc engines and eventually unrestricted aero -- and carbon tubs, full tunnels and Cosworth and Toyota 4v engines took over the class.

FC retained its name and for many years afterwards included the cats and dogs from F3 (including the Pinto F2000 cars, which came to dominate), FSV (air- and water-cooled SuperVees) and what our Canadian friends call F4 (motocycle powered tube-frame cars). After the 2005 Runoffs FC was restricted to the Pinto cars. FSVs had been FA-legal for years, but that still left the F4 cars with no National class.

Fast forward a couple of years to when the CRB recommended granting the "incubator classes", including Formula 1000, National status. The BoD approved the concept, and...reaching waaaaay back into the memory files, assigned the class the ID letters "FB".

So now you know the rest of the story. This has all been hashed out on these pages before, but it's all in there if one does a little searching.

No, they aren't. The GCR does not include a "Formula B" class. Sorry.

The "little letters on the side of your car" are the identification markings per page 68, as I noted before...NOT the name of the class.

It's your website, Doug, do what you wish. Just know that SCCA has no plans to change the name of the class.

Hey Stan, You left Formula Pacific out of your history lesson. Just imagine,....Formula Atlantic cars with FA on the side of them racing around the west coast in a series called Formula Pacific. The confusion must have been massive!

Having FB on the side of these cars is really kind of stupid. But then again, I do have 3 DSR engines sitting on the floor of the shop right now and one of them would be a pretty easy fit into my Dad's BT21. I wonder if his "codger" vintage friends would be confused if he showed up at the next SVRA event with F1000 on the side of the Brabham?

[TimW]

.not an internally created SCCA class designed to fill a perceived niche, as was the case with FB.

There-in lies the whole underlying problem with the SCCA...

[mblanc]

Where did the actual name Atlantic (Pacific also) come from ? and how did it relate to the formula cars?

Same question for Continental?


There's obviously a great history for FC and FA, but where did the name come from?

In the same light, F2000 seemed a lot more descriptive than FC.

[marshall9]

I dunno about "Atlantic". When I was a child, going to SCCA events in the southeast, I remember FA, FB, FC and Formula Ford. This was about 1973 thru 1975. I remember FA was the fastest cars, with FB next. Weren't FB "Club" supervees back then, as in "Atlantic" predecessors? I'm confused

[Charles Warner]

Historically all types of cars, when possible, were ranked via the alphabet.

A Sedan, B Sedan, etc.
FA, FB, etc.
ASR, BSR, CSR, etc.

We have ITA, ITB, etc.
How about SSA, SSB, SSC, yadda yadda.

I find it really incredible that some think a nomenclature that is somewhat less descriptive of the actual product but is most obvious in the way it ranks the cars as they might appear on track . . . providing a real and apparent reason that an FB is faster than the FC . . .will be a reason that someone would not want to join the class. If that be the case then I'm not sure we want that guy.

These "car markings" are just that. They are for the workers, and the spectators (all three of them).

Yes, as an old codger and, I might add, a curmudgeon, it seems inane that this is a big deal. Is it about doing your best to beat the guy next to you that is playing by the same rules as you? Or is it about looking cool?

BTW, Formula Atlantic and Formula Pacific were born as pro series, a slight step up from the TC powered FB cars. They designated the use of the BDN engines at first, which were basically sealed units. AFAIK the term FC was used as it included the Continental cars (F3, etc.) and it was an obvious fit into the logical class designation progression.

Just figure that FB means "Formula Bike." It makes sense and shouldn't offend anyone's delicate sensibilities. Unless, of course, you guys don't want the world to know you are powered by bike motors.

Think of this apparent dichotomy as an opportunity of explaining to a questioning fan the differences in all the formula cars and how they interact on track. Or, maybe we can change the FA designation to F1600 and make FB F1000. No, wait! That makes FC F2000. That won't do . . . . then they'd have a bigger number than the rest of us! We can't have that now, can we?

[Stan Clayton]

Having FB on the side of these cars is really kind of stupid.

How is it stupid? When newbies ask "What do those letters mean?" just tell them that the FAs have the most power and are generally the quickest, FBs second, FC's third, and so on. If they can't get their heads around that, we don't want them on track with us...

There-in lies the whole underlying problem with the SCCA...

Hmmm, in the last 5 years the club has homologated half a dozen or so new FFs, versus at least 50 FBs. So yeah, creating FB was a really bad idea.

Where did the actual name Atlantic (Pacific also) come from ? and how did it relate to the formula cars? Same question for Continental? There's obviously a great history for FC and FA, but where did the name come from? In the same light, F2000 seemed a lot more descriptive than FC.

In the early 70's Vicki Oconnor organized the Pro Atlantic series for her husband and friends to race on the undercard with various pro races up and down the east coast. Hence the name "Atlantic". Shortly thereafter a group on the west coast followed suit, calling their's "Pacific". Within a couple of years Vicki's organization absorded the Pacific group into an organization whose name changed at times as sponsors came in or left, but was the Pro Atlantics that lasted until Champcar went bust recently. SCCA Pro Racing sanctioned the Atlantic series from 1972 through the 1997 season, whereupon Vicki sold the series to CART/Champcar, who sanctioned it until going under.

The cars themselves were evolving quite rapidly, and pretty soon there were ex-pro cars on the market looking for a place to run. IIRC, 1973-ish was the last year for the bog-bore FAs, and the next year SCCA Club Racing reorganized the formula ranks, and as part of that gave descriptive names to the classes. Before that reorganization, the top 3 formula classes did not have names...they were simply FA, FB and FC. The club decided to give them names along the lines of Formula Ford and Formula Vee. The name FB went away in the reorganization, while the cars moved into the new FA and the Atlantic name was adopted. The name Continental was chosen to reflect the origins of many of the cars making up the ranks in the FC class...former F3 cars and SuperVees (aircooled only at that stage).

FB was gone by the time the watercooled SuperVees came along (late 70's IIRC), and those cars may have gone directly to FA, although I seem to recall them spending some time in FC.

F2000 was created as a sub-class within FC starting in IIRC 1970. The chassis was based on the F3 cars of the era, but with strict engine development rules in place from the outset. There were two other sub-classes that remained in FC through the 2005 season...the aircooled SuperVees and the 1100cc motorcycle engine option. The m/c engine option remained a potent factor in the class to the very end, but FSVs drifted back and were not a factor for at least their last decade in the class.

My point here is to answer your question about the name, Marc. The class had multiple sub-classes in it from the outset (4+ decades ago) and always had a name that was not tied to any one spec. It was a "formula" in the truest sense that will survive the Pinto and no doubt the Zetec as well. Hope that helps.

[Stan Clayton]

I find it really incredible that some think a nomenclature that is somewhat less descriptive of the actual product but is most obvious in the way it ranks the cars as they might appear on track . . . providing a real and apparent reason that an FB is faster than the FC . . .will be a reason that someone would not want to join the class. If that be the case then I'm not sure we want that guy.

When newbies ask "What do those letters mean?" just tell them that the FAs have the most power and are generally the quickest, FBs second, FC's third, and so on. If they can't get their heads around that, we don't want them on track with us...

Hey, do great minds work alike, or what?!