Hey all, newcomer with some questions

[captain454]

So, I've been thinking about this for a while, and it seems that going with a formula car is what I should be doing. I'm tired of trying to track a street car and all the problems that comes with (overheating, 2 alignments, worrying about the paint/finish, etc. etc.). I figure, why try to track a street car, when you can just trailer a formula car, which theoretically costs less, and runs much, MUCH faster.

So, what I'm looking to do is to get a decent amount of performance for a relatively low price... I'm not really interested in actual competition yet, so staying "legal" is not a concern. I've been leaning towards the F1000 concept, and I've heard really good things about the Stohr, is there some sort of FAQ I can visit that will get me started in this area? Another thought, since I don't plan on competition, has anyone ever tried running a 2-stroke motor in an F1000 car? I figure I could get a lot more power at essentially the same (or lower?) cost, and do away with the entire oiling system (and the various issues that come with it under high G-loads) to boot. Is there something wrong with this idea? It looks like a bone stock no frills 2-stroke 1000cc snowmobile motor can generate 275 HP... why not have a little fun and try to rework it to run model airplane fuel (10-15% nitromethanol)?

[ghickman]

Robert
I believe I'm qualified to answer your questions however I have a question for you. Why are you not wanting to join in on competition events? Track day cars are fun but it will get boring afer a while not having someone to race wheel to wheel with. This is what Formula cars are made for.

F1000 (FB) is a great class however at the moment there aren't too many of these cars out there. Stohr as near as I can tell built and sold about 20 or so cars. If you are serious about this class I'd look at one of the CONVERSION cars. In the end you'd end up with a Proven chassis and you'd likely be spending less $$$. Look in the FB classified section on this site and you'll see a car being offered by Jeremy Hill, this car is perfect for what you want to do.

ALTERNATE ENGINES:
The 2 stroke Snowmobile engine idea is nothing new. Problem is that you'd need a torque converter which brings with it a whole new set of problems. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 1000cc motorcycle engines. I have close to 800 miles now on my 2005 GSXR1000 engine in my FB with zero problems. They go like a bat out of hell, they sound cool, have 6 speed gearboxes, and are very robust. Something else to consider is that the 1000cc MC engines are cheap and plentiful supply. On the other hand Snowmobile engines aren't.

I suggest you move this thread down to the FB section and see what others have to say.

GH

[rickjohnson356]

Well, I have a little different oinion on FB.

While Mr. Hickman may have had good success, that does not appear to be true for other FB enthusiasts. Caveat: I don't have an FB, but don't have an axe to grind either.

Before purchasing an FB, please read through all of the posts in the various threads. A local friend of mine, Russ McBride has documented his journey through the build and race process for a couple of years on his conversion project. He has not had the success with the gsxr engine that others have had.

other racers have had engine fires, blown motors, cooling problems etc. Glenn Cooper, also local to Atlanta area, has had fairly good success after initial travails with cooling problems as well.

Sean McConnell, also Atlanta, was one of the original, if not THE orignal proponent of FB. He pioneered the idea of converting FC (after successfully racing his car in FC). Early on, he had to do all of the drivetrain engineering (before the Novak kit) and had several variations/problem solving 'opportunities' with rear suspension design and power transmission.

I would suggest that you attend local events first, to view the diferent classes available before jumping in the deep end of FB or FS (where your 275hp 2-stroke would be placed). There have been discussions about whether or not a tube chassis could be made safe enough for the driver with much over the 180 hp that FB currently has.

For your first venture into formula cars (the best type of racecar IMO) you might consider an established class in order to determine the level of involvement you wish to pursue. No sense in spending cubic dollars at first to only find out you don't like it (it has happened before).

With an established class, you can get experience with the whole process of preping for and attending a race as well as the maintenance these cars require. Then make a more informed decision. Also, if you get a middle-of-the road class of car, it will be easier to re-sell when you make your decision on the class you really want to race in.

It is a fun and rewarding journey for sure-- so go ahead and jump in with the rest of us.

Welcome.

[todcp]

One item not mentioned is that an open wheel tiny car is arguably not a good track day option.
First
Do any track day organizations in your area allow open wheel cars? In my area there is only one track day/time trial organization allowing open wheel cars.
Second
If allowed in the organization you will be very fast and may be put in a group with large high horsepower cars.

I have been out on track with Mustangs, Corvette etc in my FF. You had better have a lot of faith in the ability of those drivers to be aware of you. You will be way faster.

If you want to do just track days and time trials with a true race car think about a dated orphan, CSR or DSR car or better yet an out of date stock car, sedan or pickup that is set up for road racing. There is a terrific, but dated, DSR car at my local race shop, sitting for a couple of years, that can be had for under thirty thousand. Or how about a used Lotus Elise which is a track car posing as a street car.

[Marshall Mauney]

I figure, why try to track a street car, when you can just trailer a formula car, which theoretically costs less, and runs much, MUCH faster.

Very true. However, there are a couple of things you should think about:

> Maintenance on a purpose-built race car is radically different from a street car. In general, open-wheel cars require some amount of work every time they come off the track.

> Open-wheel cars require a lot more effort to set up correctly. This won't matter too much when you're just getting started, but when you decide to start racing (and you eventually will, if you like the feel of a formula car) it will be a steep learning curve.

> As noted above, open-wheel cars are not always the hot ticket for open track days. However, you can run in PDX, and there is always regional racing in several different organizations.

So, what I'm looking to do is to get a decent amount of performance for a relatively low price... I'm not really interested in actual competition yet, so staying "legal" is not a concern. I've been leaning towards the F1000 concept, and I've heard really good things about the Stohr, is there some sort of FAQ I can visit that will get me started in this area? Another thought, since I don't plan on competition, has anyone ever tried running a 2-stroke motor in an F1000 car? I figure I could get a lot more power at essentially the same (or lower?) cost, and do away with the entire oiling system (and the various issues that come with it under high G-loads) to boot. Is there something wrong with this idea? It looks like a bone stock no frills 2-stroke 1000cc snowmobile motor can generate 275 HP... why not have a little fun and try to rework it to run model airplane fuel (10-15% nitromethanol)?

Where to start....?

> FB is not exactly "low-cost" among the various open-wheel options. Decide your capital budget, then cut it in half for the inital car purchase. You will end up needing to buy a lot of other "stuff" - tools, spares, etc. - that will cost a lot more than you expect.

> Two-strokes actually perform quite well in open-wheel application, as they are very lightweight, and the CVT allowa you to stay on the powerband without constantly worrying about gearing options. There is a two-stroke class already available - F500. You could easily take one of those cars and retrofit it with a larger sled engine, or just do an aggressive build on one of the existing Rotax engines. That way, you would already have the chassis set up for the CVT (i.e., you don't have to fool with changing out the transmission & diff). If you're used to a street car, one of these will be a LOT faster than you expect it to be, and it requires a LOT less initial capital than the FB. The lack of need for re-designing the rear end of the car for the CVT would be a HUGE advantage if you really want to go 2-stroke. There is a downside, though; many people don't like the sound of a 2-stroke, and tuning the CVT is a bit of a black art.

> Why the focus on additional power in an FB? They're pretty stinkin' fast to start with. If you're not worried about competing, you might get more of what you want in an older FA - maybe a DB-4? It would be as fast or faster for less money, though only a few guys can still be competitive against the newer chassis' in FA.

> What's the fastest car you've driven, and how much actual track experience do you have? FB (or any open-wheel car with 200+ hp) is going to be radically different from any sort of street-legal car. They are not as forgiving, and things happen MUCH faster. Not to sound like a killjoy, but unless you've done some serious track time at 150+ and/or have been through some real driving schools, you should probably consider getting some instruction from a group that actually deals with this type of car. No offense to the marque clubs, but most of these groups really aren't set up to teach you how to drive something this fast safely.

Don't get me wrong - high-speed open-wheel driving is a unique, rewarding challenge unlike any other. You need to be prepared for the level of commitment it requires, though, or you will be disappointed.

[iamuwere]

If you have no experience in a formula car, a 275hp monster is a good way to kill yourself, or spend way too much for a vehicle that you will never use. That would be a lot more powerful than an Atlantic with less downforce and tire. Scary fast and intense. In a formula car, a hundred horsepower or so is pretty darn impressive.

[captaineddie1975]

I too would have to agree with Marshall's post and also IAMUWERE. I too was a bit surprised at your definition of a "low cost" car to get into. If you want two stroke experience in a formula car get an F500 and after you run it for a bit you can easily
modify the Rotax engine to larger displacement and HP. We recently did a dyno test
for the group and found 100hp to be about right for a normal non-modifed Rotax.
I don't know how young and brave you are but 100hp in a car weighing 800lbs (with driver) sitting 1"~ off the ground goes plenty fast enough for me at age 66. By the way I own Marshall's previous car so he knows what he is talking about re the F500 as does IAMUWERE who placed 3rd at the Runoffs in F500 in 2007. Check out the F500 forum at eformulacar.com and look in the classifieds. You can buy a good car ready to go for $7500+/- My annual costs to race are very low as are engine rebuilds. I don't think you can equal the costs in an F1000. I'm interested in your site name "captain454" Chevy fan perhaps?

[D.T. Benner]

You are finding out what a lot of drivers learn after whipping their Road Car. Get the proper tool for the Job. For the same reason you use a Hammer to Drive Nails,not a crescent wrench.
Smart thing to do is rent a Ride in a few cars on a Test or Practice day. That way you don't waste a lot of time just to find out what you Thought would be right for you is Not.
Like someone said running a Fast Formula Car in a HPDE track day can put you in a mix of cars with potential for disaster. Real racing would probably be safer even if you start from the back and stay on line so the faster cars can get past.

[glenn cooper]

Such as what exactly your history is, maybe the best bang for the buck would be a Radical DSR or CSR.
Track days with a sportsracer are perhaps 90% less crazy as in an open wheeler.
These cars are basically open wheeler's with a full body. Still get the wind on yer neck, still have a killer power to weight ratio.
I noticed one of the things you said was something to the effect of real strong performance at a low price.
The Stohr FB you mentioned, even preowned at 40-45k as I have seen recently are quite a deal, but is that the price range you had in mind when you said low price?
I've seen and currently have a line on a Radical Prosport w/ GSXR1000 (older version),
in the low 20's.
Something to think about...
FB's in my mind are totally out of the question. Better come packin' a thick resume before applying for that seat.
If open wheel or nothing, and you have many miles under your belt, I'm a huge proponent of Formula Mazda's. It worked for me, but I came off several years of 2 wheeeled roadracin'. As mentioned before, we don't know your history.
If not much track time in the past, Club Ford and running regionals might be your best bet.
Track days in an open wheeler don't sound at all fun, OR safe.
GC

[captain454]

Wow. Lots of good information here, I didn't expect nearly this level of feedback.. thanks! I do see F cars running in several HPDE days, although you all might be right about the safety side of mixing a formula car with a bunch of street cars (or even radicals). I'm going to look more into F500, that may be a better place for me to start. If it really is that much cheaper than F1000, the willingness to push it 10/10 will be higher, and for me that's all it's really about.

[rickb99]

So, what I'm looking to do is to get a decent amount of performance for a relatively low price...

That right there answers your fundimental question. FB IS NOT a relatively 'low price' car to operate. Buy a converted FC to FB for maybe $25,000 or buy a spanking new Stohr for what these days, $50,000 plus? Knock a corner off the car 'learning' how to drive it and that's $1,600. Track Days you get 3.5 hours of track time a day. Budget about $8,000 a year for 2 race prep'd 'go fast' engines assuming you want to run more then 2 or 3 days a year.

As a general rule, any class such as D/SR, C/SR, FB, Legends, etc that use MC engines are GREAT FUN sprint racing cars. But you must remember, in all cases, those MC engines are trying to haul around FAR MORE weight then they were designed for. Some get lucky some don't. Engine costs are a serious consideration over a racing season.

I could go on about the likelihood of damaging your flesh and bones jumping from your daily driver into FB but others have covered that topic pretty well. Go to a race, sign up as a corner worker and watch the FB's. Watching a good driver in an FB (or even a Stohr D/SR) go through the corners is enough to cause any normal person who understand race car dynamics to have 'wet pants'.

Just the move from FC (145 HP) in to the FB (190 HP) cars is a HUGE change in vehicle chassis performance and speeds.

If you've got money, want a car that's capabile of getting the adrenaline going with 275 HP (Honda VTec) and the reliability to do many track days a year, get a Radical SR5. Or even an SR3 with the 1500cc Suzuki.

http://www.radicalsportscars.com/range/sr5-endurosport

IF you're willing to 'step down' from the FB idea, look seriously at JNovak's NEW F600 cars as a place to start learning about open wheels in a car that should be great fun! Post purchase operating costs should (probably will) be reasonable. Lower cost engines and you could even afford to carry a couple of spares in the passenger seat of your tow car

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32313

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31859

[S Lathrop]

Wow.
So, I guess that leaves me looking for a way to get out there and start seeing some of these cars in action. But where to begin in SoCal? Tracks I usually hit are willow springs, buttonwillow, Fontana... any ideas? FWIW, my total annual budget is probably in the 30K range (after initial purchase), so that's where I'm coming from. Of course, the cheaper the better, I'll just run more often.

I would suggest FV or F500. With $30M you have a good budget for either class.

I suggest you get out and meet the guys you will be racing and see which group you want to run with.

I will offer for your consideration my experience with FV drivers. I raced for 15 years starting in FV and continued with FF and FSV. I have engineered in FC, Formula Atlantic, Indy Lights, IPS and a few outings in CART and IRL cars. I still work with FV, FF, FC and FB cars. I have found that former FV drivers have the best grounding in the fundamentals of driving race cars of any entry level classes. Any one who can drive a FV well will do equally well in any thing else he tries.

The FV is not difficult to drive but has well defined limits. As such, my experience is that FV drivers as a group drive to a very high standard. You will have more fun and learn more when you go up against a really good group of drivers.

[Rick Kirchner]

Come out to Cal Speedway next weekend for the VARA event. There will be a bit of everything out there - along with our usual vintage groups there will be Historic Stock Cars, Indy cars of all eras on the oval, and the Pacific F2000 guys. Lots of folks to talk to and cars of all eras.

One cavaet - you won't see any f500s, they're pretty scarce on the west coast. Probably no modern CSRs, DSRs, or FBs either, although I've seen Radicals in the paddock. The vintage sports racers bear no resemblance to their modern siblings except for the "flying mattress" bodywork.

You will see FC Zetecs and Pintos, FF, CF, VFF, three generations of FV, FA, FSV, maybe a vintage FB or two, and a lot of folks who have been around racing for a long time and driven lots of stuff.

I'm not going to have my car back together for the event but I'll be there spectating at least one of the days.

[enjoythetrack]

Hi captain454, my name is Steven and have been there-done that of sorts. There is some excellent advice in other posts, yet feel the desire to share my personal experience.

Had a tintop and, like you, decided on a proper open wheel car after a few years of track time. As others have mentioned, while you seem to not desire competition, the HUGE problem is that many leagues/tracks do not allow open wheel and closed wheel to run on the track at the same time. This obviously eliminates many HPDE days/events. Call and ask, you will find MANY events will be CLOSED to you due to the open wheel situation. Worst still, your fast open wheel car is so fast than those pesky closed wheel cars become rolling road blocks to (possibly) very dangerous on-track disasters waiting to happen.

Even if you go closed wheel DSR or the like, you had better hope the participants of an event, and the group they allow you to run in, can understand your extreme speed. While i shall avoid the possible death situation in detail, will agree than a 'mere' 150hp in an open wheel Formula Continental car is like a Ferrari Enzo yet without the electronic band-aids to cover driver error. Do the power-to-weight ration math. Going to 275hp as in an F1000 is not subtle as compared to the usual tintop and while i have zero clue as you could be the next Senna, Fangio or Schuey, that is a heck of a lot of power-to-weight ratio.

Perhaps start with a Formula Ford or, as i chose, an FC. Take time to learn what the car is capable of, as the newfound downforce on an FC took a while to understand the possible G-forces achievable at a speed at certain wing settings. Tintops are easy to basically 'know' the 1g imho, the variable down force at various speeds in an open wheel car is another thing.

For the sake of my hearing my own voice here (apologies to all), and have had more than one friend find his final resting place behind the wheel at the track, more money does not equal more safety nor talent. For me, the #1 thing is a brutally honest assessment of my own capabilities. It is 'easy' to just buy an F1, GP2 or the like. Having the ability to truly control a high hp-to-weight car is another matter entirely. Am sure you have excellent talent and experience, yet please be safe and understand the possible HUGE jump in capability that various open wheel winged car can achieve at various levels of 'investment'. Even a mere 150hp FC is quite impressive as a good 'starter' open wheel car. From there an FA or F1000 could be the next level. A tintop is a great thing, and going up the next level is just that, the NEXT level. Then there is a level after that, and one above that. Like school, unless you are brilliant skipping a grade may be ok, yet skipping four grade levels is another matter entirely. The difference being in school you get an F for going too high a level than you are capable of. On the track failure can be a different outcome.

If i may be so bold, perhaps rent an FF or FC and see how you like it. Then try a DSR or FA...

Just my humble 2 Yen. For it is better to live to fight another day than...
Here is a video by a relatively talented drive going through the paces of various open wheel cars. You can see how he strugged to comprehend and properly drive th progressivly capable open wheel cars.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/t...one_143033.htm

[rickb99]

So, I guess that leaves me looking for a way to get out there and start seeing some of these cars in action. But where to begin in SoCal? Tracks I usually hit are willow springs, buttonwillow, Fontana... any ideas? FWIW, my total annual budget is probably in the 30K range (after initial purchase), so that's where I'm coming from.

Captain,

Sounds like CAL CLUB is your local branch of the SCCA.

http://www.calclub.com/

Look at the schedule. Nex thing coming up in racing (find the Nationals and Regionals) is a double regional at Buttonwillow on March 14/15. Double national at same track on April 4/5 (hmm double nationals are usually 3 day).

Now, first thing. When you walk up to registration the first words you're probably gonna hear is.... you can't come in you're not a member.. Duhhhhh Ask for a temporary membership for about $20 (can be applied toward full membership). Go in a enjoy wandering the paddock and talking to people.

Before leaving ask somebody in white who the Chief of Flags is. Find him and tell him you'd like to be a corner worker. Next time out join the boys and girls in white to get a seriously up close look at what it's like.

There is a race at Fontana too. It's June 6/7.

If you're willing to journey further, look at what SFO region is running. Take a long weekend and attend a race as a club member at Laguna Seca, or Infineon.

http://www.sfrscca.org/

P.S.
$30K a year to spend on racing after initial purchase is a really SWEET budget.

Compared to what we can spend, $30K is astronomical!

We run an older FC car which was indeed the drivers FIRST EVER seat time in any race car. He went in to it on a very sensable learning curve building the speed and came out of his 1st season with just a couple of spins, a WHOLE lotta fun and a bunch of top 3 finish's in his races!

TAKE UP Rick K's suggestion on the VARA race. Good place to start with paddock wandering or working the corners. VARA also uses Willow Springs.

More Info:
http://www.vararacing.com/

[captain454]

So, it seems I should have been more specific on price and budget. I'm hoping to purchase the initial car outright for less than $50k, ideally less than $40k. Someone earlier mentioned Radicals... I have been looking into those on and off for over a year, and it seems the SR3 is probably the way to go, but I was fairly certain that it would be to expensive... too much to purchase, and too much to run. Now of course it's starting to look like FB is going to be too rich too... so maybe a lower formula is the way to go. Then again, if the Radicals are not as expensive as I originally thought... that might be the way to go. Lots to learn it seems. Hopefully I'll be able to get some good up close time in a couple of weeks at Buttonwillow.

[Marshall Mauney]

So, it seems I should have been more specific on price and budget. I'm hoping to purchase the initial car outright for less than $50k, ideally less than $40k.

Have you looked at FE (FSCCA)? The price point is dead-on.....

[Brian]

Why note get a track day car rather than a race car? Track day cars are designed to do what you want to do, and not so much race and maintain. I'm think the Diasio or the Radical are what you want.

http://www.diasio.com/


Brian

[rickb99]

So, it seems I should have been more specific on price and budget. I'm hoping to purchase the initial car outright for less than $50k, ideally less than $40k. Someone earlier mentioned Radicals....

Yes, what class you end up running in amateur racing is dependent upon two factors. The strength and quantity of Brave Pills in your tool box and, BUDGET!

The suggestion by Marshall to look at FE is a good ne also.

With that budget, you're on the high end of the used car budget in all of the classes we've talked about or, just on the cusp of being into the new car range in a couple of them.

SR3 that's slightly beyond your planned purchase budget. But make a deal seems priced high to me.

http://www.starsandstripesms.com/SR3Inventory.html

Here's one for $34,000 in the UK.. shipping isn't expensive. But that seems like a BARGAIN.. Hmm

http://pistonheads.com/sales/922239.htm

Your budget is also in the range of C/SR's. Find one that uses a non MC engine if lots of track days are your goal.

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/6092/...-for-Sale.html

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/5470/...e-reduced.html


If you really want open wheels (and you can find a club that will let you run open wheels on track days). You're within the price range of a Zetec powered FC! Reliable, plenty fast and fun.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32377

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32647

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31957

....I'll be able to get some good up close time in a couple of weeks at Buttonwillow.

Yes, do that before making any decision. Going to a few races will clear up any thoughts you have as to whether to race or stay with track days in the future. It will also give you some idea of whether open wheels are 'really' what you want or stay with fenders.

[JEREMY HILL]

i think you should buy my f1000/fb which is well under your budget and for 30k you should be able to run several seasons, please check my ad in the fb classifieds and call me if you like at 416-231-2007, thanks, jeremy hill

[Misterkris]

If your set on FB I would look into the Jim Russell racing school even if your fully licensed. Their new Lola F3 cars have a similar power/weight ratio and downforce levels. This will give you an idea of the performance FB cars are capable of in a structured safe environment where you dont worry as much about cracking up a rented FB. Also youll see how much your going to need to bulk up your neck.