the "deal" from HELL

[Art Smith]

recently purchased a Cortina block in Wisconsin that has turned into the "deal"
from HELL. the Cortina block was packed and shipped in a cardboard box reportedly
by a UPS store and arrived with a broken mounting ear (see picture). the seller
didn't insure the contents (or cost of shipping), is apparently unable to get a
straight answer from UPS, and is now saying ship ($100) the contents of the second
box (and potentially the block ($100) as it's been bouncing back and forth between
California and Illinois for two weeks) back to Wisconsin and he'll refund $300 of
the $500 I sent him................ that's $100 at the bottom line because he feels
he did everything possible and he didn't destroy the block, UPS did.

I clearly made a serious error in judgement assuming someone selling hardware on a
fairly regular basis at ApexSpeed knew what they were doing and "owned" their deals;
my bad and not likely to happen again soon................

based on my experience, here's some thoughts that will hopefully enable you to avoid
sellers who don't know what they're doing or who don't/won't "own" their deals:

1.) don't assume frequent or familiar sellers know what they're doing! at the risk
of seeming pushy, get an explicit answer to all of your questions.

2.) don't do business with anyone who isn't packing your merchandise personally; it's
a major tip on lack of ownership.

3.) don't do business with anyone wanting to ship a block or head in anything other than
a wooden box or shipping container. as an aside, I have two Cortina blocks shipped from
New England in wooden boxes that arrived without incident.

4.) don't do business with anyone who insists on using "Joe's Pack and Ship" or any
other freight forwarder; nationally know shippers only at their counter. if you're
paying the bill, it's your call. who knows how the rate structure works at "Joe's"......

5.) don't do business with anyone who refuses an offer of purpose made shipping
containers or supports shipped to them at your exspense.

6.) don't do business with anyone who won't insure (or explicitly self insure) the
contents, plus container, plus shipping for each and every package.

7.) don't do business with anyone who won't "own" their deal till the hardware arrives
as advertised at your front door!! not a lot to expect given your money arrived safely
at their front door!!!


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[reidhazelton]

I had a similar experience getting some rotary parts from a meathead in Florida. UPS has some pretty crap rules on what they cover, even if it is insured.

Once you get the damaged parts, you have to send them back to UPS. They then examine the part and decide if it was during shipping or due to poor packaging. Regardless, the item then goes back to the seller, along with the check (if it UPS was at fault) to cover the damaged goods. So, the shipper had the money I paid for the parts ($300), the check for the damaged parts ($300), and the damage part itself. Did I ever see my money back? No. It could be a great little scam if you needed money. Send a broken part, and get paid twice for it. UPS didn't much care when I talked to several people on the phone, "That is our policy. You problem is with the shipper, not UPS. Have a nice day"

I have found Airborn Express to be much better to deal with.

[DonArm]

Recent experiences I have had w/ UPS have lead me to STOP using them.

[Daryl DeArman]

Art, you have a PM.

[formulasuper]

Recent experiences I have had w/ UPS have lead me to STOP using them.

I agree & now use Fedex for anything too large for USPS Priority mail.

[Larry]

Art, I've used UPS for many years, and the few times that I've had either damage or loss, they've been really miserable to deal with! BUT, the responsibility lies with the seller, not the buyer. The seller has the "contract" with UPS, not the buyer. Therefore, it is the sellers responsibility to ensure that you receive the goods as represented. The claim that "It's UPS's fault!" is supposed to be resolved between the seller and UPS. If UPS does pay off, they pay the seller, and not the buyer. They understand where their legal obligation lies (even if they aren't as clear on the moral part).

As an example, I shipped a nose that was received damaged. When it was returned, I submitted a claim, and UPS refused it, claiming that it was improperly packed. After a month, I finally got the district rep to come out and inspect the box, so I could show him where it had been speared with a fork lift. I told him that no packaging would withstand the impaling by machine. He continued to argue, but eventually said "I'll pay off this time, but never again." Since that time I have canceled my daily pickups and have uses the US Postal Service a lot more.

The sellers responsibility could differ if you direct the seller to use UPS and to not insure the package.

The easiest way to deal with this is to claim that the damage is less than $100 (the amount automatically covered). When less than $100, they rarely bother to inspect the claim.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[John Nesbitt]

I have had generally very good experiences with UPS. On one occasion, a package was damaged in transit, and they paid up (>$500) without a peep.

As Larry and others point out, they deal with the shipper, since that is the person with whom they have the contract.

[Mike Ahrens]

Our business ships and receives a fair amount of stuff, some by truck, some by UPS type carriers. We gave up on UPS a few years ago after too many "it's not our faults". We use FedEx ground and have had way fewer issues.

As we are typically the seller and the shipper, we are usually on the end of trying to work out these issues. Since we are interested in long term customer relationships we are always trying to protect our customers from shipping company problems, so sometimes we get stuck. Life goes on.

[kea]

I insure my packages and if/when UPS is at fault, they have paid. I have learned how to make it UPS proof, to a degree anyway, but if they screw up, they have payed! They don't like it, but they do. I've had damage on contents, when returning a repaired item, using the customers packaging, and they still (whine..whine..whine) paid. I'm very firm when we talk.

[Daryl DeArman]

As we are typically the seller and the shipper, we are usually on the end of trying to work out these issues. Since we are interested in long term customer relationships we are always trying to protect our customers from shipping company problems, so sometimes we get stuck. Life goes on.

You'd be surprised how many companies I deal with on a daily basis who don't operate this way.

That being said, it isn't always the shippers' responsibility to file a claim. Nor will the carriers only deal with the shipper. Shipments that are tendered "FOB:Origin" don't belong to the shipper as soon as the carrier picks it up.

21 years in the freight claim industry and counting. I get nervous any time I have to ship anything or have anything shipped to me by any carrier.....guess I am tainted.

[Joefisherff]

Art, I have had good luck in the past with companies that do cracked block repair fixing broken ears. The guys that do it are real artists and pre-heat the block prior to welding, use a specific type of rod to do the repair and it's as strong as original. One caveat is that you do want to have the block machined afterwards as the heat can cause some distortion depending on where the weld is. Good luck.

[teamwisconsin]

Art-
Along with what Joe is saying... Dennis Echevery (sp?) down at John Norman's in Berkeley is an expert at casting repair, and has repaired ears on iron blocks for us before. I'll shoot you their number if you're interested.
-Ethan

[Dave Welsh]

As a retired UPS driver (25 years), I agree with what Larry said about the claim process.

The first thing UPS does when they receive a claim is to assure they (UPS) did indeed pick up the package. The claim must be made by the shipper. UPS will only talk to the shipper unless UPS wants to look at the package.

UPS will not pay any claim on a parcel they determine that was not packaged properly. Many time customers asked me if they should insure a parcel, my response was the best insurance they could do is to pack it the very best they can. Insurance will not help at all in protecting a parcel from breaking.

Since UPS deals directly solely with the shipper a wrinkle appears when a Pack and Ship type of business is used to ship a parcel. UPS will not deal at all with the person who tendered a parcel to be shipped at one of these businesses. In instances like yours it becomes the seller vs the shipper should the shipping company deem the fault is with one of these pack and ship type of businesses for not doing a proper job in packing the parcel.

Now, if this parcel was shipped at a UPS Store, it becomes very interesting. UPS does not own these businesses, they are franchised. Then it would not be unlike the Coke vs Coke Zero commercials.

Good luck

Dave

[na94]

Art, I have had a block repaired in the same way for a Miata engine. A family friend (welding instructor actually) took care of it using GTAW and a nickel rod with the flux scraped off. Been autox'd and daily driven for a few of years, and still seems okay, but I have not NDT'd it.

Distortion was kept to a minimum with use of a 3/8 mild steel plate with the block and the sheared part bolted to it. Think he used a DC setup, but I am not sure.

Hope this helps.

[Fred Michael]

Another vote for Dennis Etchevery. He can fix it without any problem or drama.
The man is an artist.
510-525-1164

[Daryl DeArman]

The claim must be made by the shipper. UPS will only talk to the shipper unless UPS wants to look at the package.

The exception there is when the shipper is no longer the owner of the product. Ship it FOB Origin and it belongs to the consignee as soon as the carrier signs the BoL.

TITLE & CONTROL OF GOODS

FOB ORIGIN
The buyer assumes title and control of the goods the moment the carrier signs the bill of lading.
The buyer assumes risk of transportation and is entitled to route the shipment.
The buyer is responsible for filing claims for loss or damage.

FOB DESTINATION
The seller retains title and control of goods until they are delivered and the contract of carriage has been completed.
The seller selects the carrier and is responsible for the risk of transportation.
The seller is responsible for filing claims for loss or damage.

UPS will not pay any claim on a parcel they determine that was not packaged properly.

True most of the time. However, there are exceptions. If the shipment was subjected to unreasonable handling and transport (chemical spill contamination from another shipment, fork tine punctures, 50g shockwatch activated, etc) then the packaging configuration is irrelevant. Unfortunately, they sometimes decline claims they should pay. Conversely, they sometimes pay claims they shouldn't (political pissing matches between VP of Sales and Corp Claims Managers do occur).

UPS will not deal at all with the person who tendered a parcel to be shipped at one of these businesses. In instances like yours it becomes the seller vs the shipper should the shipping company deem the fault is with one of these pack and ship type of businesses for not doing a proper job in packing the parcel.

Exactly. Seller's beef is with the franchise. Let the franchise deal with the Carrier. Have the seller make good with the buyer.

[flat tappet]

As someone who has worked(during the XMAS rush) loading UPS trucks for delivery, I can tell you that packages get dropped, thrown,bounced(doesn't make any difference if they say "fragile", handle with care,etc on them) all the time. The line workers are only concerned with getting their assigned trucks loaded for the drivers!

[ghoneycutt]

Great info Daryl.

Question- With UPS or the post office (parcel) regarding FOB origin or FOB destination, I have never seen a choice of been asked which I prefer as a shipper when sending a package. I would assume it's all FOB destination with them. Is there a way to choose the method? Or is that more commonly used with "trucking company" freight carriers?

I have seen "FOB origin" or "FOB destination" noted on product invoices under shipping terms. Is that all one has to do with UPS or USPS? Enclose an invoice with the package with he shipping terms on it? That doesn't seem like a contract with the carrier though.

Thanks
Greg

[SteveG]

FOB has nothing to do with the carrier or a third party packing the box, it's an agreement between the shipper and consignee (buyer in this case).
If it's FOB origin, the consignee assumes responsibility for the package the second the carrier picks up the package from the shipper. So if you as the consignee have a preference as to packaging type, carrier or insurance, you better tell the shipper, if you don't, you are implicitly agreeing to whatever the shipper chooses and you only have yourself to blame.
If it's FOB destination, the shipper assumes responsibility until the consignee or his agent accepts the package from the carrier at the destination. If things get screwed up anywhere along the line, it shouldn't cost you a dime.

As far as UPS, FedEx or any other carrier, they're all great until they break something, then both the shipper and buyer are screwed regardless of how much insurance was purchased.

Of course YMMV.

Steve

[sracing]

We do a few hundred $ a week with UPS and USPS. Some with Fed Ex Packge, DHL and a lot with Fed Ex Freight.

On all our package shipments WE assume all liabity that the package gets there intact. All packages are insured and WE make the claim for the customer and send them new items to replace the damaged/missing ones. In several years we have never had a missing package with UPS. We have had 2 damaged. Both claims were paid within 4 or 5 days. (One was under $100 and one was ~$300.) In both cases we left the customer totally out of the loop. He paid for an item, it was OUR responsibilty that he gets it as advertised.
UPS asked that the damaged goods be available for inspection, but they have never bothered.

With UPS shipping and the provided software, we can track packages hour by hour and even divert them AFTER shipment. I have always be very impressed with their infrastructure. (I assume Fed Ex Package is probably as good.)

Our USPS shipping has been a nightmare. Claims are difficult and since their tracking procedures are so lacking they will delay for weeks before paying. I had a HANS get lost (with all insurance purchased extra) To get ANY response for them I had to write the PO General ombudsman. I got a response from them, with more claims to fill and still never received anything after 2 months. Finally, the item showed up back here at the store, with no information explaining why. USPS tracking website simply said " Item Delivered".

No problems with Fed Ex Package so far. But it's is probably only 3% of our shipping.
Fed Ex Freight has also been great. Typically we only ship transmissions and engines via them. BTW, their default insurance is based upon the class and weight. So it might be $2 per pound, etc. If you want more insurance you have to stipulate it and it is costly.

DHL marketed to us to have them use them as a shipper. However of the several inbound packages we have received, local personel were terrible. (we are down the street from Amazon.Com. Two of our packages were delivered there and never found again. )

As others have said, YMMV, but I feel the seller has full ultimate responsibility UNLESS the buyer stipulates something special.

Jim

[Dave Welsh]

I just did a search on the UPS website for the term FoB and did not come up with any meaningful results. It seems that FoB is not in their vocabulary. I do not ever remember hearing that term used at all in my 25 years with the company.

I did do a search on the UPS for the term "tariff"(terms of service). This is the bible that UPS operates under, this document is presented to the government and is approved by same.

Page 37 of the tariff is where the section regarding claims can be found.

The UPS tariff can be viewed here.

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

I remember in my days as a delivery driver a consignee could not open the package until they signed for it, and if it was COD, they had to pay for it. The shipper and UPS owned the contents of a parcel until it was signed for and the COD paid for.

If there was doubt of a package being damaged I would suggest to the consignee that they refuse the package, have it returned to the shipper so the claim would be handled on that end.

[Daryl DeArman]

Great info Daryl.

Question- With UPS or the post office (parcel) regarding FOB origin or FOB destination, I have never seen a choice of been asked which I prefer as a shipper when sending a package. I would assume it's all FOB destination with them. Is there a way to choose the method? Or is that more commonly used with "trucking company" freight carriers?

FOB is a purchasing contract term. It describes where ownership of product transfers from seller to buyer. The purchase order or invoice must say FOB Origin if that is the way you wish to do it, FOB Destination is assumed. All Government Bills of Lading have the option on line 33F. Bills of Lading for International Shipments have a place for it as well.

On a LTL carrier or a small package company Bill of Lading you could state it on a line in the field as a courtesy to the carrier.

In the event of a claim, the claimant must prove ownership of the product. If, for example, you read the UPS tariff you will see the words "shipper or claimant" appear in the claim instruction section. While they often are one and the same, they don't have to be. If the claimant is the consignee they must prove they are the owners of the product.

In the end, most reputable companies ship product FOB: Destination, and will go to bat for the buyer with the carrier. However, if you are selling something, and want it to become the property of the consignee as soon as it ships you better ship it FOB origin.

Let's pretend you sell a LD200 gearbox. You are nervous about shipping it to a customer across the country and prefer to sell it locally, where cash exchanges hands and they load it in their pickup. However, a buyer on the other coast wants it. You receive the funds and pack it up and ship it. It gets damaged in transit. You now would refund the money and be out the transmission should the claim get declined. Why would you wish to put yourself in that situation?

I won't pick on any race supply companies, but some have some very small print buried in their terms. Here is a non-race related company most of us are familiar with:

http://www.mcmaster.com/mcm/openhelp...pContext=terms

[Daryl DeArman]

I have seen "FOB origin" or "FOB destination" noted on product invoices under shipping terms. Is that all one has to do with UPS or USPS? Enclose an invoice with the package with he shipping terms on it? That doesn't seem like a contract with the carrier though.

It isn't a contract with the carrier. It is a contract with the purchaser. It is proof to the carrier that you have no interest/ownership of the product once they pick it up.

As long as we're learning how to wash our hands of a shipment as soon as it leaves our door: ship it freight collect and sign section 7 of the Bill of Lading, section 7 is also known as the non-recourse clause. In a nutshell, the carrier can't come back to the shipper for freight charges under any circumstances. Some carriers have instructed their drivers' not to pick up shipments where section 7 is signed, however, the drivers' are usually busting their butts by the time they are making pickups and aren't reading all the fine print on the BoL...lucky if they count pieces and read labels.

I have no problem standing behind anything I sell. However, I prefer to handle transactions locally where carriers are out of the loop. That isn't always practical, but I've made my living for the last 21 years on carriers damaging and losing freight. About .5% of the time, so odds are pretty good it will get there intact. However, all I see is that .5% and it is a lot of damaged freight!!!

[ghoneycutt]

Daryl, and others,

thanks. That makes thing allot clearer.
Greg

[flat tappet]

We do a few hundred $ a week with UPS and USPS. Some with Fed Ex Packge, DHL and a lot with Fed Ex Freight.

On all our package shipments WE assume all liabity that the package gets there intact. All packages are insured and WE make the claim for the customer and send them new items to replace the damaged/missing ones. In several years we have never had a missing package with UPS. We have had 2 damaged. Both claims were paid within 4 or 5 days. (One was under $100 and one was ~$300.) In both cases we left the customer totally out of the loop. He paid for an item, it was OUR responsibilty that he gets it as advertised.
UPS asked that the damaged goods be available for inspection, but they have never bothered.

With UPS shipping and the provided software, we can track packages hour by hour and even divert them AFTER shipment. I have always be very impressed with their infrastructure. (I assume Fed Ex Package is probably as good.)

Our USPS shipping has been a nightmare. Claims are difficult and since their tracking procedures are so lacking they will delay for weeks before paying. I had a HANS get lost (with all insurance purchased extra) To get ANY response for them I had to write the PO General ombudsman. I got a response from them, with more claims to fill and still never received anything after 2 months. Finally, the item showed up back here at the store, with no information explaining why. USPS tracking website simply said " Item Delivered".

No problems with Fed Ex Package so far. But it's is probably only 3% of our shipping.
Fed Ex Freight has also been great. Typically we only ship transmissions and engines via them. BTW, their default insurance is based upon the class and weight. So it might be $2 per pound, etc. If you want more insurance you have to stipulate it and it is costly.

DHL marketed to us to have them use them as a shipper. However of the several inbound packages we have received, local personel were terrible. (we are down the street from Amazon.Com. Two of our packages were delivered there and never found again. )

As others have said, YMMV, but I feel the seller has full ultimate responsibility UNLESS the buyer stipulates something special.

Jim

BUY FROM JIM OFTEN!! GREAT ADVICE, FAST SHIPPING,A PLEASURE TO DO BUSINESS WITH....AND JUST A NICE GUY.

Best Regards,

Bruce

[sracing]

Gee thanks Bruce...

Jim

[cjahn]

Good Day,

I have been told that if I do not pay the demanded funds my name will be posted with association to this transaction. Mr. Smith and I have had some differences in opinion and have not been able to reach an agreement to this problem.

Needless to say there are two sides to every story. Rather than turning this into a public argument, I have decided to contribute in one simple posting:

I have each and every e-mail relating to this transaction documented with date/time stamps. If you would like to review it and make your own assessment of the situation, feel free to contact me. I am truly very sorry we were not able to come to an agreement. I am truly sorry Mr. Smith doesn’t feel that I acted with the utmost integrity while trying to work with the shipper to resolve this situation (And continue to do so)

And thats all I have to say about that....

Sincerely
Courtney "Corky" Jahn
ctjahn at hotmail.com

[R. Pare]

This is a good object lesson for anyone who ships something, especially something as heavy as a cast iron block, and with features as fragile as the pointed ears for the bellhousing boltup area:

NEVER ship an item like this without wood panel reinforcement all the way around it! Whomever stuck this in a box and expected styrofoam peanuts to adequately protect it is an absolute idiot and should be fired from their job! Styrofoam pellets will allow the part to shift around whatever way it wants, and that is all that these packing houses do - stuff the box with peanuts.

In this case, I would put the responsibility for ensuring that the part arrived to the purchaser intact on the shipper. He/she selected the method of shipping, and the level of protection to be given the part, therefore the loss is his/hers - NOT the buyer.

[Art Smith]

based on a sample of one and I underscore one, I will not be attempting to do buisness with Corky Jahn again. while we all occasionally get up on the wrong side of the bed or have a bad hair day, my problem with this seller is of a far more fundamental type. delivery of purchased hardware or prompt refund of payment (merchandise and shipping) within forty-five days from FedEx overnight shipment of a cashier's check is well beyond all reasonable expectations in my view of a seller's responsibilty. it's also my view that goods and/or services purchased by the seller from suppliers of their free choice have the same relevance to their obligation to get the buyer the hardware they purchased (or refund) as a school child's lack of completed homework explanation/excuse their dog ate it!!

like the old adage says: let the buyer beware!

I'd like to thank all of the many folkes who have freely shared their experience, offered to help, and contributed some really great ideas. ApexSpeed is truely an amazing resource for the community; >1700 hits in five days and counting.

for the curious, bored, or snowbound, complete e-mail threads (without edits) are also available from the unsuccessful buyer at the address below.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Art Smith]

the "deal" from HELL is finally done!! Monday I received a cashier's check from the seller for the complete amount paid for the used Cortina block (and shipping) that was damaged during shipping. the seller also included $40 to cover the cost of my cashier's check and FedEx envelope for the Cortina block; a thoughtful jesture!

I suppose at the end of the day, all's well that ends well..................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Daryl DeArman]

Art,

Glad it all worked out and you came back here to tell us about it.

I had to go up to your neck of the woods for a job on Monday. Wish I had more notice and time while there, I would have offered to treat you and Rick to lunch.

It seems one of my other customers (not UPS) transported a $125,000 kitchen blender the folks out at China Lake use to make little tiny batches of explosives for small scale testing. Said blender arrived at China Lake damaged and I had to go out to area C and inspect it.

[Art Smith]

Daryl-

stop by next time you're in the middle of nowhere; formula car folkes are a real treat and the sight seeing is usually as a minimum interesting!!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net