News from SEDIV

[Purple Frog]

Just returned from the SEDIV Annual Convention.

F600 has been adopted as a regional class by the Atlanta Region for '09.

And as far as that goes, F600 will thus qualify to race in the '09 ARRC. During Atlanta Region regionals the F600 cars will run in the same run group as F500.

One of the strongest proponents for adoption was none other than Apexspeed's GT1Vette (Butch Kummer), acting as Competition Director for one of SCCA's largest regions. The purpose for the move was to allow the cars on track for heads-up comparision purposes with F5 cars.

Other points of interest. These cars will supposedly be able to apply for F5 homolagation through Topeka, and not be required to be dual homolagated as FS cars this season. Topeka says they are homolagating the chassis as F5 with no regard to the engine type.

It was mentioned that the whole F6 "rules package" was hoped to be in Topeka early enough to be adopted as a class for '10. Atlanta Region felt like taking this step would enable better data collection before the package is finalized.

Much discussion about the new class as being a possible "next step" for karters.

[teamfour]

Wow! This is certainly encouraging. Maybe all my conversion work will pay off.

[Jnovak]

This is very interesting news & the 1st I have heard about this. A very positive step for alternative 600cc bike engines in F500.

You can bet I will be at the ARRC with my car.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[tedsimmons2]

What class will F600 run in at the ARRC? Unless F500 participation falls off significantly they will be invited to participate at the 2009 RunOffs in Road America. I understood the ARRC was open to classes that were not at the RunOffs?

Admittedly, I'm a GCR novice but how does a car get homologated into an existing class, F500, which has no provision for a 600cc motor?

Ted Simmons

[Jnovak]

I am not sure how that happens either Ted. I have been told several times that these F500 cars with 600cc bike engines will be homolagated as FS cars for now. Perhaps "converted" F500 cars do not have to be re-homologated. Confusing to me. I will call Topeka on Monday to confirm this.

Thanks ... Jay

[Purple Frog]

My understanding is that Atlanta will class them as F600. Since SCCA does not have a national class called F600, then the F600s will qualify to run at the ARRC. If Jay's project moves forward and 600s are integrated into 500s for 2010, then the F600 class will go away, as will their invite to the ARRC.

We were told by a honorable individual that Topeka homolagates the chassis for a given class. This was during the discussion at Jekyll. None of us called Topeka to confirm. Jay is correct in following up and getting clarification. If this is true, existing F500s would not have to get new homolagation papers to make the engine switch. Just like the last time F440 switched to F500.

[RussMcB]

That sounds like a great, win-win plan. Lots of positive aspects (getting F600 cars on track, creating good comparison data, providing a year end championship, etc.). Kudos to ATL Region and/or whomever was involved.

What class will F600 run in at the ARRC? Unless F500 participation falls off significantly they will be invited to participate at the 2009 RunOffs in Road America. I understood the ARRC was open to classes that were not at the RunOffs?

If I understand this new plan correctly, F600 will be a its own regional only class for a while (thus eligible for the ARRC), and maybe adapted into F500 eventually if the formulas are deemed equal.

[Bill Bonow]

This is great news for the development of the F600 concept, Atlanta Region and the ARRC. However, I think confirmation (IE Topeka) on this nation-wide loosening of the homologation process is in order. If confirmed, I got a 2.3L FC motor to get ready post haste. I am pretty darn sure that FS will be the first step for any F600 cars being homologated. The only catch for F600 homologated in FS is the weight. A simple waiver for F600 cars will resolve that issue.

After going through the 5 year process of getting FST SCCA regionally recognized, I have a hard time swallowing the nation-wide portion of this news. Especially when one of the main proponents of the concept (Jay Novak) is shocked by this news.

Then again, rumors are always fun when the snow is flying.

[Purple Frog]

I can only report what I heard at the "CR Board/Regional Rules" session in room B at 2:30 on this past saturday at the SEDIV Annual Convention.

This was not hallway chatter. The panel was made up of Butch Kummer, Terry Ozmets, and Fred Clark.

Maybe it is Topeka's proof of serious attempts to be more "user friendly" and to streamline processes for their 'customers'. FST may have been presented during a 'more difficult' period of the club's history. Supposedly, the times, they are a changin'.

Ms Ozmets said in effect that Topeka was watching this new class as possibly a new stepping stone for 16 year old karters to enter the ranks.

Mr. Clark was the gentleman that mentioned the streamlining of the homolagation process.

Mr. Kummer, who one would think considers these cars mere motorized bedroom slippers, announced the F600 regional class status for Atlanta Region.

[Jnovak]

I am not shocked by anything. I have had over 100 personal inquiries about the 600 project. I suspect that if this ever gets the go-ahead F500 will grow significantly in the next few years.

The only thing that surprises me is the homologation item but if this is true then life will get much easier. I hope this is the case, but I will definitely be on the phone on Monday.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Bill Bonow]

Jay,

As I posted I was thinking shocked may be the wrong word and I too was speaking specifically about the potential homologation change. If true, this is a huge deal. I know there is a lot of interest in F600.

PF,

Change is good and I wish it would happen easier within our club. As I'm sure your well aware of, only the BOD has the power to make changes, the CRB suggest those changes and Topeka just executes changes once they are made. Terry can watch F600, just like anyone else (you, me anyone), but out of those three people you listed (I know them all very well), I don't think any of them have the authority to change the SCCA homologation process. My suggestion was that I would certainly want to verify these changes (or that these changes are coming) with Topeka.

As I said, I think this is great news for F600. My question is about these potential changes in the homologation process.

[formulasuper]

If the chassis for a F600 meets the rules for F500 the only needed changes to the F500 section of the GCR should be section E.1.4 - Engines, & E.2 - Weight, which is based on which engine is installed. The homolgation process would be the same as it is for any current F500. Correct?

[RussMcB]

Maybe (WAG on my part), homologation doesn't really look at the power plant, but more so the chassis structure and safety. I base that thought partly on the fact that I've heard numerous times that homologation does not mean a car has satisfied all rules for a class. For that reason, I can (semi) understand homologating an F600 car as F500, since they don't easily fit in FS because of weight. I guess having F600 homologated as F500 also facilitates having them run with FV/FF rather than FA/FB/etc.

It will be interesting to hear how they will formally explain it.

[GT1Vette]

At the urging of Jim Murphy and others, we have approved F600 as an Atlanta Region class to help the developers of the 600cc drivetrain evaluate it's performance against the existing F500 cars. The longterm goal is to achieve parity with the existing cars with a less expensive and more attractive drivetrain package. From both performance comparison and safety aspects it is important to have these "experimental" cars run with the F500 cars rather than with the "Wings and Things" that FS normally runs with, but we didn't want to affect the points competition for the traditional F500 cars (both of them). Hence we came up with the designation 'F6'.

There seems to be confusion about how the cars should be homologated, but we'll figure it out in the next couple of days and all should be in place before our first event of 2009 (Feb 20-22).

To those concerned about "adding yet another class to the mix", F600 has a finite life span with the purpose of developing the concept. It is a regional-only class, and as long as it doesn't add another run group (which it won't) it really doesn't affect our scheduling over a weekend. Historically our small formula group has relatively low participation as well.

F600 will eventually go away once the F500 rules are changes to include these drivetrain options (see the various "Pinto/Zetec Parity" threads for an idea of how long the process COULD take ). However temporary it is, however, the class will be invited to run at the ARRC by GRM since it is a non-Runoffs class. We'd run it with the CF and FST group (the FFX guys are gone - they've had two years to show support and we've had three total entries) and they should fit nicely there.

Although I did make fun of Jim's claim that these changes could make F500 as popular as Spec Miata, I do see where it could make the class MUCH more attractive as an entry level formula car class - particularly amongst the karting set.

Butch Kummer
Atlanta Region Competition Director

[bonedome]

Okay, after reading this entire thread...don't shoot me now...where does that leave us in autocross? If I convert my 1986 Dolphin to bike power, do I stay in f-Mod? Somewhere I heard that I'd have to run in A-mod...MUCH bigger engines..wings (insert definite drool here), etc.. So..if I have to run with A-mod...I don't really see that as 'right'. Anybody able to shed some light on this?

[teamfour]

Yes, A-mod or B-mod (with higher weight).

[Jnovak]

I spoke to the Technical Director of Club Racing, John Bauer, a few days ago. The F500 cars with 600cc bike engines in them CAN BE HOMOLOGATED AS F500 CARS. That is great & simple news for those of us building these cars.

We need more guys building cars. Do not hesitate to get in touch if you need any help in getting started.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[bonedome]

Back to the autocross thing..lol...if I run in A-Mod...do I get wings?...lol...
I love wings....
Jay, this conversion does interest me greatly...looks like I'll be in touch.

[Jnovak]

Cool Bonedome. BTW we can fit a big engine in the car.

Thanks ... Jay

[jim murphy]

Okay, after reading this entire thread...don't shoot me now...where does that leave us in autocross? If I convert my 1986 Dolphin to bike power, do I stay in f-Mod? Somewhere I heard that I'd have to run in A-mod...MUCH bigger engines..wings (insert definite drool here), etc.. So..if I have to run with A-mod...I don't really see that as 'right'. Anybody able to shed some light on this?

If/when the 600 MC drivetrain is approved for the F500 road racing class then the Solo Events Board can decide to approve it in F Mod (autox) since the F440/500 part of the F Mod rules are based on the GCR.

Jim
One of the writers of the original F Mod rules many years ago