Lotus 51 FF/F2

[Dan Morrison]

Is anyone familiar with this car being sold on eBay? It looks interesting, but I wonder if it would be legal for any vintage groups. The claim is that it is a 2.0l, but is a 1600 701M block. Can you get that much displacement from that block? Thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=160309140704

Thanks, Dan

[minimarcos1967]

Hi Dan,

I think you could get very close, but I'd also think it would be dicey in the water jacket.cylinder area. Depends on the block and how far you're willing to go. With a special 84mm crankshaft and if you were able to bore to 85mm, you'd be close to 2 liters.

Here's an idea of what's possible: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ford-X-Flow-Lo...1%7C240%3A1318

I'm decidedly NOT an expert on these things so will be interested to hear from more knowledgable members. Wow, 84mm -- good grief! My Cosworth MAE has a crank stroke of 49mm (!) so we're in different leagues altogether here...

The Lotus 51 is interesting & looks fun in current form. I wonder what it would take if a new owner wanted to return it to its original FF spec?

Best Regards,
Andy

[Roland V. Johnson]

A BD engine and a FT gearbox are about worth the buy it now price.

[Dan Morrison]

I originally thought that the asking price might be in line with the cost of engine and trans. However, the head is the only unique part, unless the bottom end is all steel, add to that an unknown builder. The block is nothing more than a late TC L block. Trans is an unknown as well.

[PeterTRoss]

Dan,

As I am sure your know, the Lotus 51 is a Formula Ford. The Registrar for the Formula Ford cars in the Historic Lotus Register is John Mihalich, Jr and his e-mail address is lffr@hotmail.com (that is LFFR standing for Lotus Formula Ford Regster) and his website is http://www.lffr.org/.

I will let him know about this website and maybe you will hear from him.

With best wishes,

Peter Ross
Editor Historic Lotus Register magazine "Historic Lotus" http://www.histriclotusregister.co.uk

[Brian]

There is no reason in the world why an original Lotus 51 couldn't have been prepared as a F2 car in the day, but they probably weren't. Certainly the 59/69 was, of course, in slightly different versions. Cosworth iron block BD's used the 1600 block same as FFord from 1969, you can get very close to 1900 cc's in that block if you try hard (I have an 1865cc version in my shop, 82.2mm stroke and 85mm bore, actually originally in a 116E block under a Martin three valve head). FT200 was typical F2 fitment from 1966 or so. The bigger version of the iron block BD used brazed in cylinder liners, all based on the 711 block. L version had thicker cylinder walls so could be bored farther.


Gorgeous car, exceptionally well presented in their photos

Brian

[formulasuper]

The Ebay listing has ended. It doesn't say how much it sold for, or if it did sell. Anyone here buy it?

[Motorsport Services]

The Ebay listing has ended. It doesn't say how much it sold for, or if it did sell. Anyone here buy it?

I sure hope not. Appears to be a finely polished CAN OF WORMS....
(not to mention that we have a 51 in our shop w/ the same chassis #)

[SteveG]

The Ebay listing has ended. It doesn't say how much it sold for, or if it did sell. Anyone here buy it?

It sold for $29K to an unidentified buyer via "Best Offer".

Steve

[Motorsport Services]

It sold for $29K to an unidentified buyer via "Best Offer".

Steve

,

[DanW]

I guess my concern would be the ability of the chassis to handle the power of that motor and the grip of those slicks.. The chassis design dates back to the Lotus 31 F3 car. The 31 was designed for 100bhp.

Chapman hounded his engineers to "get the pounds out of the cars", meaning both mass and Pounds Sterling cost. He was successful at both.

My friend's old Brabham BT 18/21 started life as a Formula 3 car and was converted to Formula B(SCCA class later to become F Atlantic). It would not take the HP and torque of a top Brian Hart twincam. The BT chassis were considered to be a bit stiffer than the Lotus 31/51 chassis.

I think the buyer of that car will have himself quite a handful.

[pooch776]

I thought the same thing as DanW. I owned a 1966 lotus 31 that I vintaged raced with a national ff engine and Dunlop treaded tires. I tried stiffer springs to lower the car but I would get vastly different corner weights after only a couple of sessions presumably because of chassis flex. I can't imagine that chassis with 200 plus HP and wide tires.

Joe

[EffOne]

I'm the guilty one – I bought it. What can I say: all logic pointed to the fact that this car could have about as much chance of working properly as V8-powered hedge trimmer, but I allowed lust get the better of me. (as if I haven't learned this lesson already with other cars, girlfriends and even a wife!).

But I'm a Lotus fan from way back, I've owned a Europa twin cam for 10 years and I never got over losing out on a deal to buy a Lotus 61 two years ago when I was first looking for a vintage FF car.

As Mr. Johnson said, I figured I could always sell off the engine and gearbox and restore back to FF specs (and coincidentally, was also figured he'd be the perfect guy to do the job!). I have an Elden FF in the garage that actually has a Cortina motor from a Lotus 51 in it, so I could rob just about all the parts I need right off a car I already own (and probably won't be able to sell for very much $ anyway). Hell, I could also toss the Europa motor in it! Put the BDA in the Europa!

I've never been one to claim that I had more sense than impulse control – something about this car just grabbed me. The Lotus 51 is the most beautiful of all FF cars, in my opinion, not to mention just about the only vintage FF car that will also actually appreciate in value. But the combo of the Lotus 51 looks with the twin cam and FB-spec wheels, just knocked me out. Purists be damned. Common sense be damned!

And I knew about the car before it was on EBay. I saw the car on a total fluke when it was first advertised on the Symbolic web site (not being in the market for an SWB, Enzo or Veyron, I'm not on their site too often), and like the schoolboy who kept a Yamaha Mini Enduro brochure in my pocket for an entire summer, just kept going back to the site to look at it. Just a striking car!! Then by coincidence I saw it on EBay just after it was posted. Kismet. And with a Buy-It-Now price on it, I knew someone was going to buy it, right or wrong, so I just leaped off the ledge and bought it.
I mean, what's the worst that can happen?

The previous owner was Japanese guy who had a car collection, including race cars that he drove regularly, that would make anyone on this site drool uncontrollably (or maybe some might say were a bunch of expensive garage ornaments; where's the love, Motorsport Services? Lest not ye be judged, or something like that...).

Anyway, there's a lot of information to share about the car including more details on the motor and the whole build process, if anybody's interested.

Cheers!

[Brian]

Well, congratulations! I thought the car looked and presented very well indeed, and you have the option of just looking at it, or putting it right and running it. As you say a BDA in a Europa wouldn't be a bad thing, probably - as long as the FT200 found it's way back there as well!

Have fun, that's what counts.

Brian

[Gary_T]

Nice! I've got a BDD in my Europa - bolts right in! You'd be silly not to... well, after you try it out in the 51 a couple of times first...

[Roland V. Johnson]

I'll be looking for this car at a VARA or HSR event soon!

[Motorsport Services]

My post was in no way directed towards the buyer. We are ALL succeptible to the drool+impulse+ purchase syndrome (otherwise, we'd be golfing, collecting stamps, or shopping for a retirement home!) My point of contention was with the seller, who had represented this car as being track ready, which it was NOT. This is a community, and the very last thing any of us wants is for someone to unknowingly jump in this car and then hurt themselves (or someone else)
I relish the thought of seeing this 51 on the track again in it's original state, but not as a hand grenade...

I'm the guilty one – I bought it. What can I say: all logic pointed to the fact that this car could have about as much chance of working properly as V8-powered hedge trimmer, but I allowed lust get the better of me. (as if I haven't learned this lesson already with other cars, girlfriends and even a wife!).

But I'm a Lotus fan from way back, I've owned a Europa twin cam for 10 years and I never got over losing out on a deal to buy a Lotus 61 two years ago when I was first looking for a vintage FF car.

As Mr. Johnson said, I figured I could always sell off the engine and gearbox and restore back to FF specs (and coincidentally, was also figured he'd be the perfect guy to do the job!). I have an Elden FF in the garage that actually has a Cortina motor from a Lotus 51 in it, so I could rob just about all the parts I need right off a car I already own (and probably won't be able to sell for very much $ anyway). Hell, I could also toss the Europa motor in it! Put the BDA in the Europa!

I've never been one to claim that I had more sense than impulse control – something about this car just grabbed me. The Lotus 51 is the most beautiful of all FF cars, in my opinion, not to mention just about the only vintage FF car that will also actually appreciate in value. But the combo of the Lotus 51 looks with the twin cam and FB-spec wheels, just knocked me out. Purists be damned. Common sense be damned!

And I knew about the car before it was on EBay. I saw the car on a total fluke when it was first advertised on the Symbolic web site (not being in the market for an SWB, Enzo or Veyron, I'm not on their site too often), and like the schoolboy who kept a Yamaha Mini Enduro brochure in my pocket for an entire summer, just kept going back to the site to look at it. Just a striking car!! Then by coincidence I saw it on EBay just after it was posted. Kismet. And with a Buy-It-Now price on it, I knew someone was going to buy it, right or wrong, so I just leaped off the ledge and bought it.
I mean, what's the worst that can happen?

The previous owner was Japanese guy who had a car collection, including race cars that he drove regularly, that would make anyone on this site drool uncontrollably (or maybe some might say were a bunch of expensive garage ornaments; where's the love, Motorsport Services? Lest not ye be judged, or something like that...).

Anyway, there's a lot of information to share about the car including more details on the motor and the whole build process, if anybody's interested.

Cheers!

[EffOne]

My post was in no way directed towards the buyer. We are ALL succeptible to the drool+impulse+ purchase syndrome (otherwise, we'd be golfing, collecting stamps, or shopping for a retirement home!) My point of contention was with the seller, who had represented this car as being track ready, which it was NOT. This is a community, and the very last thing any of us wants is for someone to unknowingly jump in this car and then hurt themselves (or someone else)
I relish the thought of seeing this 51 on the track again in it's original state, but not as a hand grenade...

Please know that I was being tongue-in-cheek with you in the first place, no apology needed, but thanks.

I'm still in-between my typical buyer's remorse (which I get after buying a pizza) and elation. I took delivery of the car on Friday. It is absolutely spotless, lots of new rod ends, hoses, lines and it has new brakes, reservoirs, clutch. A nice surprise was that the "spare" FF-spec wheels looked brand new new and had brand new spec Dunlops on them. They also delivered the car from San Diego to Los Angeles as a favor. Even the battery was charged. I think their translation of "race-ready" was more from an individual mechanical component quality standpoint (and their ad also said it should still be scrutinized before running it). Now whether the car a whole is a roller coaster, that's another story! They never made promises as to the usability of car, and were very straightforward with their opinion on the car's potential drivability issues. It was only my green-mist inspired lunacy that made me hope it would work!

Engine details are not known, like cam profile, it is entirely possible that the motor was not built to within an inch of its life, considering the type of chassis it was being put into. But the car was owned by a pretty rich guy who could have afforded to rebuild an engine after every lap if he wanted, so who knows. As to how the car will work - it has very heavy duty shocks, a re-fabricated rear anti-roll bar, and it seems that all the more powerful Lotus formula cars have the drive shafts aft of the rear shocks. The engine also adds some weight. And those tires would slow down a 747 in a straight line... so who knows? I'll throw it on a chassis dyno and learn more about the powerband and put a real driver in it and see what's what. I'd like to see if the car will work in its present state because it would be interesting; it's not like it has a 2007 Hayabusa engine!

Damn, I almost forgot a question I have for you: my car has a chassis plate saying its #135, but you wrote that you also have chassis #135? Is that the chassis 135 car listed on the Lotus Registry? My car in its extremely stock form was in a Japanese museum for years, listed in the museum's official program as #135. So we have a Lotus Mystery! There are no other numbers on my plate so it could have been a replacement. John was looking into this as well.

Cheers,

Pen

[Hawke]

Slightly off topic, but what is it with Formula Ford people and Europas. I've got one of each too.

[EffOne]

Slightly off topic, but what is it with Formula Ford people and Europas. I've got one of each too.

I smell a Facebook Group!.....

[John Nesbitt]

Slightly off topic, but what is it with Formula Ford people and Europas. I've got one of each too.

As do I, but an S2.

[Gary_T]

Didn't Arch reset 'frame' numbers each year? So there could be a '68 #135, and a '69 #135...

I'm assuming Arch built the chassis, that the 51 was built multiple years, and that you're looking at the frame #, not the lotus stamped tag (sorry - lots of assumptions!)

I might join Facebook if there were a FF/Europa group... but I'm not sure, don't need more distractions!

Gary

[Rob McClelland]

Gary,

I seem to recall reading the frame numbers were stamped at the Lotus works as they were received from Arch Motors, not the other way around.

Rob

[Motorsport Services]

...we'll talk about it at Phoenix over a beer! John is coming down as well.

Please know that I was being tongue-in-cheek with you in the first place, no apology needed, but thanks.

I'm still in-between my typical buyer's remorse (which I get after buying a pizza) and elation. I took delivery of the car on Friday. It is absolutely spotless, lots of new rod ends, hoses, lines and it has new brakes, reservoirs, clutch. A nice surprise was that the "spare" FF-spec wheels looked brand new new and had brand new spec Dunlops on them. They also delivered the car from San Diego to Los Angeles as a favor. Even the battery was charged. I think their translation of "race-ready" was more from an individual mechanical component quality standpoint (and their ad also said it should still be scrutinized before running it). Now whether the car a whole is a roller coaster, that's another story! They never made promises as to the usability of car, and were very straightforward with their opinion on the car's potential drivability issues. It was only my green-mist inspired lunacy that made me hope it would work!

Engine details are not known, like cam profile, it is entirely possible that the motor was not built to within an inch of its life, considering the type of chassis it was being put into. But the car was owned by a pretty rich guy who could have afforded to rebuild an engine after every lap if he wanted, so who knows. As to how the car will work - it has very heavy duty shocks, a re-fabricated rear anti-roll bar, and it seems that all the more powerful Lotus formula cars have the drive shafts aft of the rear shocks. The engine also adds some weight. And those tires would slow down a 747 in a straight line... so who knows? I'll throw it on a chassis dyno and learn more about the powerband and put a real driver in it and see what's what. I'd like to see if the car will work in its present state because it would be interesting; it's not like it has a 2007 Hayabusa engine!

Damn, I almost forgot a question I have for you: my car has a chassis plate saying its #135, but you wrote that you also have chassis #135? Is that the chassis 135 car listed on the Lotus Registry? My car in its extremely stock form was in a Japanese museum for years, listed in the museum's official program as #135. So we have a Lotus Mystery! There are no other numbers on my plate so it could have been a replacement. John was looking into this as well.

Cheers,

Pen

[rickb99]

I'm not so sure you should be having a lot of remorse. Based upon yours having the 'classic' livery versus this at RM auctions in Monterey

http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/10129/index.html

[EffOne]

I'm not so sure you should be having a lot of remorse. Based upon yours having the 'classic' livery versus this at RM auctions in Monterey

http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/10129/index.html

I saw that one - pretty good deal considering it's a ground-up restoration. Red is weird for a Lotus, though. Drove my car at Cal Speedway last month, designed for a much smaller driver than my Elden FF, and was geared all wrong, but a blast to drive.