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  1. #1
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    Default Feedback on Steven Pickering

    Purchased an rf90 van diemen from Steve Pickering

    The car was not as we discussed in emails- I can go into great detail on this, much greater than I will here.
    The fuel tank was leaking and covered in decomposed fuel sludge, I asked the seller about this and he stated "well the cockpit smells like gas due to the fact the driver sits on the fuel cell" This makes no sense and is a ridiculous justification for a fuel system that is sealed except for a vent behind that exits far behind the driver.
    The replacement fuel cell was $1250, More than 10% of the cars entire purchase price.
    When I brought this up the seller attacked me personally.

    Upon delivery this mans father tried to rip us off additional money, saying the exchange rate changed that very day after we had already paid half of the cars price and agreed on a final payment. We were taken advantage of after driving 800 miles and they knew we weren't going to turn back. I have a faxed statement we sent to Steve confirming the agreed pricing which he agreed to and then breached.

    There are cracks in the brake pedal and cracks in the balance bar.
    The rear brake line is frayed entirely through the braided covering and partially through the rubber line by the shift linkage.
    There was undisclosed damage listed in the log book.

    I am not stupid (contrary to what Steven tells me), I've designed and built overall 11th and 6th place nationally competitive fsae cars and I've built a factory five gtm from the ground up, I know what a safe competition car should look like, and this car was not safe. I've followed other discussion on the fuel tank issue and this may be fault of the inpectors in canada, but I feel this competitor should have been damn well aware of the fact that a fuel cell should have at least be looked at once or twice during a cars 18 year life. Now, after confirmation (from himself) that Steven replaced the bellypan prior to selling, there is absolutely no way he could have been unaware of the leaking fuel cell. I specifically asked if the fuel cell was in good condition and he said yes. This was clearly an outright lie which he thought was justified in dumping on a new member of the formula community for unkown reasons. Most likely why he was selling the car in the first place.

    Not happy about having to spend my first few months with this car correcting all of the mistakes this seller has made with the car.

    In summary: I wish I would have truly understood what some say about the need to nearly take a car apart to know its real value. This was the 4th car I considered buying and apparently became inpatient. I highly recommend that in prospective buyings take a very close look at anything else the seller is trying to get rid of, and nail down a price IN WRITING before. I realize the racing community is a tight knit group, and I feel they deserve an honest review and my account of the way things went down in this sale. Being a true engineering enthusiest, I see this as an exciting challenge to try to fix a car that was prepared incorrectly.. so not all is lost.



    He tells me that he is a very respected member of the community and threatened that making negative comments about him would not be in my best interest. Well, I'm sorry Steven but there is no other way to interpret you pawning off a leaking fuel cell on any potential buyer. Granted it IS a 1990 car but any racer should make sure his car is safe... cracks in the brake system, a leaking fuel cell which should be inspected (or replaced) every five years, and a nearly cut brake line are inexcusable... not to mention the rats nest of wiring with negative and positive leads seemingly with random color mismatches.

    Very dishonest seller, It seems like everyone on not only apex speed, but in the formula car community is a stand up person. It seems like was very unlucky in meeting Steven.


    -Ben Kroon
    Mechanical Engineering at SDSMT

  2. #2
    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Is this the same 1990 Van Diemen that he had listed 4 years ago here in his only post on the forums?


    Where did you find the current ad? Did you see a lot of photos?





    I always tell everyone who asks about internet deals, that it's 100% caveat emptor, but there always has to be a little bit of trust with the buyer, for many reasons. And this community is SO close-knit and everyone knows everyone else, something will definitely spread quickly if a dishonest deal is done.

    Too bad about the wonky deal, but I would NOT sit my ass in ANY race car that I didn't personally take apart and reassemble to my own standards—and I don't care if the car was just pulled off the podium at the RunOffs. It's better to have those things on your car screaming at you than the hidden ones whispering that you potentially find out about only when you are on a track somewhere at 120mph.

    Definitely post photos of the project as you progress. It's a good lesson for many to heed, but you will learn a TON about the car as you go.


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    Default i feels ya pain!

    never any truer words;

    "buy what you inspect, not what you expect"

    forget who said it but there ya go!

    ciao

  4. #4
    Contributing Member John Nesbitt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Carter View Post
    Is this the same 1990 Van Diemen that he had listed 4 years ago here in his only post on the forums?


    Where did you find the current ad? Did you see a lot of photos?
    This is a more recent incarnation of the seller: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30992
    John Nesbitt
    ex-Swift DB-1

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    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Contributing Member RussMcB's Avatar
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    Ben,

    Suggestion from an old guy (me):

    Chalk it up to a lesson learned. Don't bother yourself by getting aggravated. Instead, put your energy into working on the car and making it something you'll be proud to own and drive for the next few years. It's pretty often that buyers of used cars don't get what they expect.

    Thanks for the heads up about the seller. Now, move on and look forward to years of fun racing a car you'll know intimately because of the extra work you've done. Believe it or not, peace of mind can make you faster.

    Keep us posted with your progress. You'll find lots of folks here to help out.
    Racer Russ
    Palm Coast, FL

  7. #7
    Senior Member Dave Hopple's Avatar
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    Ditto to what Russ said, Ben you can get the current cell fixed/repaired for a lot less than $1250, try calling Aerotech out in LA, they just did a cell for me http://www.aerotechservicesinc.com/index.shtml

    -Dave

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    I think this is just a case of "buying an 18 year old race car 101". If you are buying a basically complete car for $10K, then you need to expect things will need to be fixed. An 18 year old fuel cell is 13 years past it's best-before date, so if you can use it or even have it renovated - bonus. That's part of the deal with buying an old car. I expect to replace the fuel cell in every car I get in my shop, and I am rarely disappointed. I also expect to replace most of the rod ends, rebuilt the entire hydraulic system, replace at least half of the brake lines, etc. The brake pedal and balance bar falls into that category. Until you inspect it, it's a suspect part that may or may not need to be replaced. Remember, with an old car all that the most thorough inspection can tell you is that it's not broken "right now". It could break five minutes into your first drive. You've had experience with building new cars - that doesn't make you an expert in knowing what to expect with old cars - mind you you soon will be .

    Buying a race car is the ultimate "caveate emptor". If you didn't inspect it, or didn't know what you were seeing when you did, or honestly thought an 18 year old fuel cell that smelled of gas was going to be OK - your bad. No need to post a rant in a public forum against a guy who sold you the car.

    Brian

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    Ha thanks guys I agree with everything said. I did expect to replace most everything on the car, my problem was the seller telling me things were new or like new. My problem is really not so much with the car, just with the dishonesty. Hence I am reviewing the seller, not the car. Like I said I was sort of looking for a something a few steps short of a basket case because I wanted to make the car my own, however it just really bothered me that this guy took the pan off.. most likely had to clean a half gallon of gas off his shop floor, then sealed it back up, told me the tank was like new, and then sold it to me... but not before taking more money than agreed upon!

    Anyways yes, lesson learned. Overall the car is pretty good though... in other respects. What would any of you recommend for a sort of progress blog program.. or should I just use a web page ala some members here?

  10. #10
    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    While I have ben a proponent of expecting all systems in a car that is new to need repair/replacement . . . . there is something to be said for having a modicum of trust in the car "as presented" - either verbally or in pictures. Apparently, it would have been better to ask for your money back and refuse the car although it might have been difficult getting it back. Then you are out the costs of the drive, but you have avoided the aggro you encountered.

    There are inspection services which, in this case, may have been a reasonable expense.

    You mentioned you became impatient. Too often, when we have decided on buying a car, we tend to overlook any warning signs because it is such an exciting prospect. We hear what we want to hear and ask leading questions that are most easily answered in our favor. Very few owners will admit their car is in need of extensive repairs. When I buy a car I expect those repairs and when I sell a car I advise that all systems be totally rebuilt, even if I would drive it that day. IMO the best car to buy is one that the owner acknowledges needs a total rebuild, or has all the recent receipts and build sheets for all work performed, and pictures to validate the claims.

    Brian is right about understanding the dynamics of buying/owning an 18 year old car. Remember, these cars were designed to have an active life of less than 5 years, if that.

    Lately I have heard of several guys being scammed, especially on parts. Recently a scammer who purports to be in Decatur, GA (but who has a URL in Europe) has answered several ads from people needing some rather esoteric parts. He always seems to have exactly what they want but his camera is broken. There are other obvious scammers out there. There are also suppliers who are less than honest. I recently lost a $400 deposit on a nose for the Shadow and the supplier (AJ Enterprises in Salinas) refuses to make it and yet will not send the money back or even acknowledge contact. Sometimes publicizing these issues is the only method to apply pressure.

    There are a lot of people that are known to the forum readers and can be taken at face value. There are others that appear on the horizon selling parts. I'm not suggesting they are not legit. However, is there any way we could create a "feedback" section and/or a "reference" section in which a potential buyer could post his potential seller and ask for any feedback from the forum? IMO any responsible and legitimate seller would not object to having his name put forth as a possible source. Often, as in this case, the forum members are aware of these cars having been for sale for many years - a warning sign in and of itself. If the buyer had been aware of this fact it might have influenced his decision, or at least prompted a degre of caution. In cases such as international buying, or even long distance buying, there are methods one can use to protect oneself from inappropriate sellers. I am NOT suggesting we get into someone asking if such-and-such a part is worth $XX.XX. Just opinions as to whether the individual has a good reputation or not.

    Here are some suggestions for different payment methodologies. http://fattogatto.com/forums/post/3.aspx

    Thoughts?
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

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    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffrgtm View Post
    What would any of you recommend for a sort of progress blog program.. or should I just use a web page ala some members here?
    Hang tight and we'll have a new feature right here soon for ApexSpeed members to create race blogs here on the site.

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    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Warner View Post
    ...is there any way we could create a "feedback" section and/or a "reference" section in which a potential buyer could post his potential seller and ask for any feedback from the forum? IMO any responsible and legitimate seller would not object to having his name put forth as a possible source.
    Charles, you know you are IN the Seller/Buyer Feedback section of the Classifieds already, right?


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    Yes I noticed that the cars were for sale long ago but at a much higher price... thats why I assumed they were still for sale. Now that the prices had been dropped 5k cad I figured I should jump on the deal before someone else did. This was my mistake

    I didn't experience too much aggro as many of the forum members here did prepare me for the encounter of buying a used race car. I knew there would be some issues.. I just didn't expect someone to blatantly lie about something as serious as the fuel cell leaking. Anyways it IS in fact all water under the bridge, I just don't want another fine apexspeed member buying his 98 car without being very very cautious!

    Great news on the forum feature for build blogs! I've been taking a ton of pictures so far.. I do have some on my photobucket account along with pictures of my gtm.

    http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/SubaruSTi/
    you have to navigate through the albums on the left side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Carter View Post
    Charles, you know you are IN the Seller/Buyer Feedback section of the Classifieds already, right?

    Lol!

    I do know what Charles is talking about though, on some forums you can recieve feedback and it effects a number underneath your username. It's similar to the ebay system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffrgtm View Post
    Lol!

    I do know what Charles is talking about though, on some forums you can recieve feedback and it effects a number underneath your username. It's similar to the ebay system.
    I have thought about that, but there are too many ways to abuse that system, and it penalizes people who aren't doing a LOT of deals on a regular basis. And the formula car/SCCA/racing community is small enough that word travels fast, no matter who you are.

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    Contributing Member RobLav's Avatar
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    A few comments:

    1) This community is pretty tight. Word gets around...

    2) $10K for a 1990 is probably not TOO bad of a deal. You get what you pay for.

    3) Your fuel cell can be repaired by ATL - for a lot less money than new.

    4) Never put more than 10% down payment on something you haven't seen.

    5) Upon purchase of a 1990 racecar, the fuel cell should have been taken out anyway.

    6) I would have been PO'd at the exchange rate crap. You had a deal for a car at a specified price. This goes back to #4 above.

    7) Dump the factory seat and make your own.

    8) You'll probably need more motion ratio at the bellcranks.

    9) Don't become emotionally attached... especially to racecars...

    Good Luck.

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLav View Post

    5) Upon purchase of a 1990 racecar, the fuel cell should have been taken out anyway.
    Unless, of course the seller tells you it is fairly new and in excellent condition. especially on cars where a fuel cell inspection isn't feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLav View Post

    9) Don't become emotionally attached... especially to racecars...
    That is great advice!
    Last edited by Daryl DeArman; 01.05.09 at 12:22 PM.

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    o
    Last edited by stonebridge20; 01.05.09 at 1:13 AM.
    Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
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    I had decided that it would be quite a pain to ship what is essentially a vapor bomb through the post, as a matter of safety I decided just to spring for the new cell. I did end up paying $12500 for the car after the exchange rate rip off.

    I did buy a large bead seat so I should be set there... just have to find someone who will let me borrow their rock climbing harness now so i can make it a little room between my tailbone and the floor.

    A little off topic:
    The motion ratio is no good on a 90? Should I just buy newer bellcranks from primus? Will I need new pushrods... will the new cranks even fit? Does this mean I need new shocks as well?!? I will be using very soft springs as this car will be used in Cmod (autocross). I'm ok with buying some replacement bits.. but hope I can find a less than new price on these items as the cell took some of my budget out.

    Oh and I just noticed today that he welded some cracks in the inside of one of the rear uprights! Fantastic!

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    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Carter View Post
    Charles, you know you are IN the Seller/Buyer Feedback section of the Classifieds already, right?

    No, Doug . . . I did not . . . .,

    I assume, since Bruno & Guido haven't visited me . . .the reprt was OK.
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

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    Contributing Member Jonathan Hirst's Avatar
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    The 90 is a great car and your rebuild efforts will be rewarded in a car that has a great deal of potential. If you search through this site, there is lots of posts on ideal wheel rates/rate ratios (and some REALLY impressive ones ) which you cannot achieve without making either new rockers, mounts, or a combination of both.

    On my old 91, I increased the RF 91 rear ratios as far as I could go on without changing mounting locations or making a new rockers. It moved the wheel rates closer to where the stock front rocker ratios were which wasn't terrible for the Dunlops I was running. On the scale of importance, it is well behind "replacing frayed brake lines" but well worth investigating when the rest of the car is prepared sufficiently. I will attach a pic of my temporary set up which was 6 years old. If you are AutoX'ing, run the car as is and sort out where you (and the car) are at before decide what you want to do with the rockers.

    When you tear the 90 down, check the rear rocker mounts (lowers and the upper cross brace) very carefully for cracks. Also check the welds carefully at the base of the firewall (with the floor off) for cracks propagating upwards in the bottom tube as I have seen them there three 90/91's I have worked on. There is a flex issue in the engine bay for the early 90's VD's. It can be addressed by bracing but again, it falls below the list of items you mentioned in your post regarding priority. PM if you want more pictures or longere winded descriptions.



    Jonathan
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    Senior Member Max Power's Avatar
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    Default fuel cell repairs

    Ben,

    Give these guys a call. They just tested and fixed some leaks on my RF98 cell for $200.

    Eagle Fuel Cells

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    On the exchange rate thing, it kind of depends on if the car was sold in $CAD or in $US. If it was sold in $CAD and the exchange rate went up, it would have taken a few more $US to pay for it. quite legitimately. Pretty easy to see some misunderstanding and miscommunication happening here.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    On the exchange rate thing, it kind of depends on if the car was sold in $CAD or in $US. If it was sold in $CAD and the exchange rate went up, it would have taken a few more $US to pay for it. quite legitimately. Pretty easy to see some misunderstanding and miscommunication happening here.

    Brian
    Perhaps half and half... and the half that was sold here the rate went up. The English language is quite difficult in this respect, and is probably the reason that lawyers have jobs!

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    Default 2 sides to every story!!!

    First, Here is my reply to Ben's whiney email

    Ben,

    I'd like you to remember that you bought an eighteen year old car and keep that in perspective as you inspect the car. We successfully ran that car from 2000 to 2006 without any problems or failures. The state in which you received the car is exactly how I explained it would be in the emails prior to your purchase.

    I realize that you are young and inexperienced in racing and that this was a large purchase for you so I'm cutting you some slack. Your inexperience was demonstrated when you shorted out the two battery terminals and potentially blew up the battery. I think I have been more than generous with helpful hints and staying in constant touch with you since you bought the vehicle; something that I am certainly not obligated to do. I do not appreciate having you call me out like this and telling me that you have a lawyer/racer friend that also inspected the car; that sounds threatening and a total inappropriate way to go about things. It sounds to me that this friend of yours is also inexperienced and doesn't know what he's looking for.

    I'd like to go over the all the many points you've listed to defend them, but I'm doing this only once, so please read closely and check the car over again keeping in mind that this is an eighteen year old car.

    The rocker arm and sway bar bearings are just fine. The pedal assembly probably needs a few rivets to snug them up to the floor pan. We did replace the floor pan and glued and riveted it to the chassis; we had two made at the same time and we included the extra pan. The throttle linkage was in the exact same condition as when we purchased the car and it posed no problems for us. The spare gears were in perfect shape prior to shipping and were stored in a bucket to help keep them safe as they were delivered to you, I cannot imagine that they would have even a small scratch on them. I don't know of any cracks or dents in the chassis beside the two cracks that I already disclosed to you in prior emails - the chassis is safe and ready for racing. The two cracks I mentioned before were located at the two lower joints at the bellhousing and were successfully repaired by us. The Bilsteins are not new and you must have misread the ad which says that it has a new transmission and it includes four Bilsteins, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear to you. Finally the stack dash works fine other than the needle for the RPM, which I had already told you about. The water temp, lap timer and digital RPM work just fine.

    My father did not try to rip you off as you very offensively stated, we were selling the car for $15,000 CDN and it was dependent on the current exchange rate. So how the dollar fluctuated unfortunately affected you, but that is the way of business when a currency exchange is involved.

    The way you received the car is the way it came off the track, in perfect and safe working condition. I wouldn't hesitate to race it myself just the way it is. You are more than welcome to post whatever you like online though I caution you that that is an immature way to handle things in the racing world. I have been racing for nearly 20 years and run a well respected and honest team. The racing community is a small one and tight-knit one, especially in Formula Ford. It may be a bad move to start your career on the wrong foot, so I would be cautious when running your mouth. But as I said, you are welcome to say what you feel, I am a man of integrity and pride myself as being honest and upfront, nothing you say will change that.

    I feel that this will be our last contact as things have obviously gone off badly. I wish you nothing but luck with your racing career and hope you find good experienced help to guide you along the way.

    Steve

    That was my diplomatic way of dealing with this cry baby. These are a few more points I should have said. Not ONCE did the fuel cell ever come up! I did not know that it had a leak and if I did I would have willingly told him. Everything we ever discussed was and IS TRUE. I don't know why this kid is still complaining about the price, when we sold the car we sold it for $15,000.00 CDN. And I told him I don't care what it costs him in American dollars. The price is $15000.00 CDN Period.

    I don't care what this guy says he has built, he doesn't have a clue about anything!!! I tried to be nice, but like most kids, they just don't listen. I could go on and on but I want to be as tasteful as possible!!!

    I would advise anyone who wants to give this guy a hand because he will probably come back to haunt you in the end!!!

    PS. I am a little disappointed that Apexspeed posted all of his threads without consulting myself first and hearing the other side of the story.

    Steve Pickering
    SSP Motorsports

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    Contributing Member Dick R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffrgtm View Post
    I will be using very soft springs as this car will be used in Cmod (autocross). I'm ok with buying some replacement bits.. but hope I can find a less than new price on these items as the cell took some of my budget out.
    For autocrossing you might start with wheel rates that roughly equal corner weights, run the shocks relatively soft so they become "just a shock rather than a tuning device" and put your $$$$ into FRESH sticky tires and lots of seat time on warm pavement (when does SD pavement get warm . . . June? ). You will need to fine tune the handling to get to the top of the CMod results Nationally but a good basic setup which doesn't screw up the handling should be enough to allow you to chase PAX locally and get a feel for the car.

    Dick
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    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    I am a little disappointed that Apexspeed posted all of his threads without consulting myself first and hearing the other side of the story.
    Mr. Pickering, for the record, ApexSpeed does not and never will post feedback for anyone about anyone. All feedback left here is the responsibility of the buyer and the seller. People are left to decipher for themselves what happened in the dealings and why. You are perfectly free to explain your side of the story should you choose, and I am glad you did.

    Blaming ApexSpeed for anything in this soured transaction is completely irresponsible.

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    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    PS. I am a little disappointed that Apexspeed posted all of his threads without consulting myself first and hearing the other side of the story.

    Steve Pickering
    SSP Motorsports
    Steve,

    First of all, your response was measured and well presented under difficult circumstances. I am sure you read the thread thinking public opinion was not on your side. I think most of us, having bought and sold more cars than we care to remember, realize there will always be discrepancies between what we think the other guy said and what he thinks he said. As you point out, dealing with a neophyte can also add some vagaries to the process. (In re-reading the thread it would appear the buyer may have confused the grunge (usually fuel and tape residue) in the fuel cell area as evidence of a leak, not realizing that over the years there will be fuel that is spilled into the cavity and start the grunge process. In any event, a leaking cell in a car that old is to be expected.)

    Hopefully these differences of opinions can be handled privately. Sometimes, for whatever reason, they seem to create the proverbial mountain and one side tries to air the differences. The use of this forum, IMO, can be a valuable tool, but only if used responsibly. One of those uses is to provide both sides the opportunity of addressing the issues. You have done that. We have no way of knowing who is "in the right." In fact, if suppositions and opinions were taken into account probably both of you are "right."

    I know you feel your reputation has been sullied and there is little you can do to change that. You've probably done as much as you can and anything else would be seen as too much. And, I certainly understand your feelings regarding your father. I too have been "stung" by changing exchange rates. If the deal was done in a specific currency then it should be concluded in that currency.

    To the forum at large: would it be feasible, or even advisable, to establish a sort-of Forum Board of respected and experienced members who could be contacted in such instances and could assist in solving these issues off-line and in private? I know there could be no legislative power but maybe a small group of knowledgeable members could provide such advice - and that's all it would be. Crazy idea?
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

  29. #29
    Contributing Member RobLav's Avatar
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    This thread has been a good read...

    When "mostly" reasonable people are involved, there are always two sides to the story. ApexSpeed is a great place (thanks for allowing this stuff...) for airing and hopefully resolving differences.

    If the agreed upon price was in Canadian $$, then that is the deal. Exchange rates of the day apply.

    Charles' idea of advisory members has merit. Additionally, a group like this could be very helpful to inexperienced racers (buyers, sellers, setup, etc) here. I remember reading fatto gatto's website years ago, while looking for advice.

    IMHO, the buyer here probably should have asked for some advice before the transaction. I was extremely lucky with my first racecar buy - also from Canada. But I bought the car from a pro who does this for a living.

    But, we all live and learn - and own our mistakes. Just don't make them more than once...

  30. #30
    Senior Member oh2winindy's Avatar
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    Not sure why I care to comment here since I have been away so long, but the driver sittiing against the fuel cell comment is true. When my Reynard was completely full, I would sit in the car and tighten the belts and I would loose some fuel out of the overflow from the pressure against the aluminum between myself and the fuel cell. I am sure I am not the only one who has ever had this happen.

    Also,

    The people on this board are the best. If your new here, the last thing you want to do is make enemies. No matter what, tactful diplomacy is always the best bet. Problems between you and the seller are best handled between you and the seller if possible.

    Please understand I am taking no sides in this...


    Just my 2 cents.

    Good luck with the car... It looks great and you will have a blast!!
    Jamie Cole

    89 Reynard CFC

    Only those who risk going too far will ever know how far to go

    http://www.kintera.org/grassroots/jamieracesforlaf/

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    Well without getting all bent out of shape and turning this into a flaming war I will make some very clear points:

    1: the issue of price) We faxed a sheet to you describing the initial and final payment that would be made in USD, it is that simple. The first down payment was made according to the exchange rate.. and the second payment was set in stone (or ink if you want to be technical).

    2: The fuel cell issue) I asked you specifically if the fuel cell was in good shape and you said yes. When I removed the fuel cell it was dripping with gas, I emptied it and put it in a bathtub and there were no less then three leaks at several locations. If you replaced the bellypan as you said, there is simply no way you could not have known the fuel cell was bad as gas would have spilled onto your floor. Granted it wouldn't have gushed everywhere, that is the point of the internal foam, but it would have been obvious something was not right. The fuel vent in the rf90 van diemen comes from the side of the filler in the engine bay, squishing the cell would not force fuel into the cockpit anywhere, or on the tank anywhere.

    3: The brake issue) The brake pedal has surface cracks in the square tubing itself, the brake line is worn through the stainless braid AND through the rubber. Brake fluid drips from the rear of the car when you press the pedal. This is not safe... seriously haha. "The way you received the car is the way it came off the track, in perfect and safe working condition. I wouldn't hesitate to race it myself just the way it is." <-- Unwise

    4: Wiring comment) I touched two of the wired together that were up in the dash thinking it was the connection for the light and they got hot, smoked a little. The battery did not explode. Both wires were 18 gauge black wires, danger did not seem immenent. You have absolutly no room to talk on wiring, the battery cutoff does not work whatsoever (you cant ground the battery around the switch and excpect it to work steven) and for god knows why chopped the voltage regulator out of the stack harness. The wiring is an absolute disaster and I will provide plenty of pictures of this when post my build log.

    I had a lawyer look at the page I faxed to you and then explained the situation, he said that I was not at fault and was owed money. I had a racer friend check the car over.. and he said he would not trust his life to this particular machinery. How is this a threat?

    I feel I handled this in a fair way. I simply stated what I have personally seen on the car, and compared it to my knowledge of racing. I never once copied and pasted from our personal conversations, which in my opinoin is quite immiture.



    If you feel I am whiney that is fine... you sold me a car with a cut brake line, and a leaking fuel cell. How would you feel?


    If there are any issues anyone or you, Steven (hector), feel I haven't covered please let me know. I haven't made any rash descisions in my postings, or stretched the truth what so ever. Please contact me through private messages or email instead of this thread however, or I fear this will simply turn into a lowly flaming war. From what I've seen apexspeed has too much prestige to let that happen.. this isn't some import forum

    This car speaks much louder than either of our postings/emails could ever, and I while I am tempted to post some of these more detailed pictures now, I will wait until I can give a full explination to each and every dangerous oversight in this car in my future build log.


    That was my diplomatic way of dealing with this cry baby. These are a few more points I should have said. Not ONCE did the fuel cell ever come up! I did not know that it had a leak and if I did I would have willingly told him. Everything we ever discussed was and IS TRUE. I don't know why this kid is still complaining about the price, when we sold the car we sold it for $15,000.00 CDN. And I told him I don't care what it costs him in American dollars. The price is $15000.00 CDN Period.

    I don't care what this guy says he has built, he doesn't have a clue about anything!!! I tried to be nice, but like most kids, they just don't listen. I could go on and on but I want to be as tasteful as possible!!!

    I would advise anyone who wants to give this guy a hand because he will probably come back to haunt you in the end!!!

    PS. I am a little disappointed that Apexspeed posted all of his threads without consulting myself first and hearing the other side of the story.

    Steve Pickering
    SSP Motorsports
    Can someone please explain to me how this is an example of maturity? You've missed almost every point I've made... never once given an explanation or even an apology for selling me a car with a cut brake line which is incredibly irresponsible. If i was a stupid whining kid like you are saying I would not have stripped this car down to the bare frame and checked every part. I would never have known about the leaking fuel cell or the sliced brake line. I could have died or hurt someone else on the track. And I can not believe you would blame apex speed for my posts.. have you ever used an internet forum before? Do you understand how this system works? People do not have to get your approval before giving a seller review rating of you.

    In a nutshell, this has gone on far too long and in way too much detail. I posted my review of this seller and apparently should have been far more breif and listed fewer reasons for my review. This will go nowhere on an internet forum and my discussions of this will stop here (as advised by my lawyer). This will be settled outside of the heresay world of the internet, in the real world where laws and courts make the final descisions. To end this discussion, my review of this seller is negative. Thats really all that matters. If an apexspeed moderator wishes to delete this entire thread and simply change my review to: Negative, seller sold me a car with a leaking fuel cell, sliced brake line, and misc. I would respect that descision. As it's all I really should have said to avoid creating sides.

    Many members here have already helped me immensely, I do not wish to make enemies with anyone. I just want to slightly repay the community by hopefully helping other avoid another bad transaction with this seller It really is as simple as that. I wish location and time would have permitted me to strip the car down to the frame before handing over the final check as I was advised, but I guess I just have too much faith in the human race.

    -Ben Kroon
    Last edited by ffrgtm; 01.06.09 at 12:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffrgtm View Post
    ...just want to slightly repay the community by hopefully helping other avoid another bad transaction with this seller It really is as simple as that.
    ...thanks for that heads up. I am certain you will find that a huge majority here are both very honest and have lots of faith in the human race too. I've only come across two people in my 20+ years of racing that I won't do business with again....others probably have similar experience/viewpoint.

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    Yes and just to clarify I have talked to people who actually know Steven personally and they have said: that a) he is an "OK driver"... so he has that little bit going for him and b)his cars were always very "ratty" and I was advised to check the car "very carefully". I am not alone in my opinions of this seller and hope that whoever ends up with his 98 car he is trying to sell strips the car down to the bare frame as I've done. Remember I found a leaking fuel cell, ridiculous wiring, and a cut brake line, so this is very important for the safety of any potential buyers.

  34. #34
    Classifieds Super License Charles Warner's Avatar
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    Ok. Now this has dropped into the depths. The man's driving ability is not a factor, nor are the supposed opinions of nameless others. If you want to use this public forum to express your views on facts, so be it. However, to start using it to spread such slurs is, IMO, over the top. The Forum Administrator may see this differently.

    You said " and I was advised to check the car "very carefully".

    It seems you did not follow this advice.

    I understand your frustrations. To quote Don Henley . . . Get Over It!
    Charlie Warner
    fatto gatto racing

    'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!

  35. #35
    Administrator dc's Avatar
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    Yup, let's call this a day and close this right here. No need for personal attacks.


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