Would it really make a difference?

[Bill Bonow]

The FST guys have talked (nothing more and always said "no way") about the idea if wings would draw more competitors. Yes, they cost more money and yes, they are just hanging out there waiting to become shunt fodder, but the question still stands if "sexy" would draw in more drivers. We know it will slow down the cars and increase cost.

Here is two photos of the same GAC UK FV (very similar to FST). One in UK trim (no wings) and the other in Formula Vau trim (German FV).

UK GAC03


Euro GAC04

note: The German FV uses a 1300cc VW watercooled Polo

I'm just curious to hear other opinions if this would or would not make any difference in someone choosing FST.

Remeber, this means nothing. Just a opinion on a forum.

[problemchild]

85 hp and wings?

[Rick Kirchner]

Those are nice looking FVs! If appearance means a lot these days those would really raise the bar. I'd bet the Polo makes a lot more than 85HP.

[Stan Clayton]

Bill, slap FS stickers on and give it a shot. Stan

[Bill Bonow]

Greg,

I agree as do the majority of FST guys (obvious statment). However, outsiders looking at FST keep bringing it up. This forum has a pretty good mix of people and thought they could bring some form of substantiation/reason why. There are also lots of tire kickers floating around that will always find a reason why not. Just trying to understand for the next time the question is asked.

Rick,

Both the UK (1300cc air cooled) and German FV (1300cc water cooled) make just over 100 hp. IMO, still way too little for wings (functional or not). The question is, would wings or no wings be a real factor in choosing a low powered formula car knowing that they will add cost and slow you down?

[Keith Carter]

I don't know Bill, for as much drafting (sometimes bump) the lower powered vehicles do I would think they would get in the way and cause a bit of expense to the class (when tweaked) which kind of goes against the purpose of the class, isn't it?

[problemchild]

I realize the question was asked in the context of "looks" and I agree that people will find the wings sexy.

Once you change the context .... and the parameters change ...the responses would change.
Should FFs have wings?
Should 110 hp FVs have wings?
Should 85 hp FSTs have wings?
If anyone answers yes to the above questions ....
Would the extra cost of these trimmed-out wings ($1000 bumpers) attract more people than get driven away?
Good questions for 2009

Cheers!

[SteveLevin]

Bill,

I do think those wings look great. However, I wonder if adding wings simply pushes the process one more step down the chain. What I mean by that is you put wings on, and then the next question is "do you have to use an old VW engine?" Pretty soon you've reinvented an F1 car

If adding wings would suddenly bring lots of interest, then it's great. But if it only moves things to the next question, well, then, I dunno if it's worth it.

Steve

[Bill Bonow]

.....which kind of goes against the purpose of the class, isn't it?

Keith,

You are 100% correct. Maybe those people that keep bringing up "if it only had wings" are just completely goofy (my thoughts anyway). But as we try to grow the class, we need to understand real objections to be able to overcome them (sales guy talking). Another guess is that the pickings are getting pretty slim for new people looking to blow money on race cars.

Greg,

I'm really thinking that the "if it only had wings" claim is really code for "I can't buy a race car".

Steve,

You bet. This has the potential to be "rules creep" in sheeps clothing.

[VehDyn]

As an outsider looking in....

I like the look of the car sans wings. It looks great.

A little bit wider tires and a cool modern wheel and its smokin'!

[Rick Kirchner]

Just re-read my post - I didn't mean the cars looked good with wings - they look great without 'em. i can't think of what the wings would provide in the way of driver education with such low HP. Keep 'em slick.

[Bill Bonow]

Rick,

Now I see your meaning. Here is a couple of shots of the newest FST to hit the track here in the USA ('08). We all tried very hard to design/build the rules to allow for good looking reasonably priced cars. FWIW, I think the rules allow us to build pretty nice looking cars for what they are.





I just don't see wings being a deal breaker, but I guess the question should be asked.

[DanW]

I believe wings would make it much easier to draft each other. The guy in front on the last lap would be the first loser, or worse.

I think you guys developed a very good looking and reasonably slippery car.

[rickjohnson356]

I am building both a FST car (early Caracal copy) and a vintage car (69 Zeitler).

I currently have campaigned (as an entrant) a Crossle FC. Yes, wings look cool, but from an entrant/crew viewpoint, they are a total PITA.

I have spent more time fixing broken wings/wing mounts and diffusers than I care to keep track of. My time would be better spent on other chassis prep jobs to improve the performance.

One accident at CMP took out a right front wing, wing pole and nose mounts (minor driver error-- not a real concern because it could have happened to anyone). Luckily I had spares (whole nose and wings) at the track.

Another accident (FE youngster newbie running on Daddy's money) took out the LR suspension, rear wing and diffuser. The youngster was driving way over his headand trying to win on the first lap--red flag & restart!. No apologies from him or anything- cost has been around $2500. He is gone now, as these types usually are after one year.

Wings would destroy the primary reason for FV and FST being a training ground for learning how to race at the limit. Then add wings after proving you have talent and the necessary $$$ support.

I really like the top picture (GAC)-- car looks very aero and clean. (Are tires the FF fronts and rears? the rears look treaded to me)

If the guys (lookers) are asking for wings then point them to a used FC-- can be had for less than FST!!

FF should get wings before FST since the ff have 50% more HP. Try asking the ff guys if they would allow or want wings...

my $2500 worth. lots more than 2 cents, but you asked the question.

[JohnnyOTS]

The FST guys have talked (nothing more and always said "no way") about the idea if wings would draw more competitors...

As one of the newbies just getting into formula racing, the reasons I chose FST included cost, the community and convenience. FST looked to be the absolute cheapest way for me to get and maintain a competitive formula car, the people involved appeared to be great folks and there was an active and growing FST group at a track 30 minutes from my home.

Sexy didn't even factor into it (beyond the glamor of owning a formula car, of course.)

That being said, one of the most common questions I get when I show people my car is, "Where are the fins?"

I'd agree with the other posters that adding a pricey piece of performance-impairing eye-candy is rather contrary to the reasons the class was founded, at least as I understand them. The people who ask about the wings aren't people who would be joining the field anyway.

From a class-growth perspective, what seems to be the most effective draw is the cost/performance ratio. The newest FST people out here are FF folks who are tired of having to track down parts and take out a second mortgage to rebuild their engine when they can have nearly the same amount of fun (minus some horsepower) for much less money and effort. Wings wouldn't help with that at all.

If we want to look sexier for the general public, adding wings would be advisable. If we're going to emphasize the things that make this class great, wings would be counterproductive.

(That's the practical answer, anyway. From an emotional perspective, I think they look really cool and wish they could be cheap and functional so we could look sexier while still keeping costs down and avoiding mockery from other racers for pimping up our cars with wing-bling.)

[samiam520]

As a former manufacture of FST cars (Mystique M-5) I think the addition of wings would increase the appeal of the class. Yes, it would add some cost, and probably slow down the cars slightly, however, I think that it could appeal to the younger crowd that we seem to be lacking. I would like to see small spec wings that all cars would have to use. Maybe with a little volume the cost would not be to bad.

[Ian Lenhart]

quick sketch with wings.

[samiam520]

Ian,

Yes, I like that. The only thing that I would change is to make the front wings a little bit smaller and keep them flat to reduce manufacturing cost.

[problemchild]

Those wings would probably be good for Grattan.

We would need smaller ones for Road America.

I guess that testing would determine which ones were best for Nelson and Mid-Ohio.

It would probably save costs if the rules were made so that FC wings could be used and FST cars could just buy off-the-shelf wings rather than having unique FST wings.

[dd46637]

First lets add wings then in say about 3-4 years we can start using water cooled engines.

Oh wait I've already seen this movie. It came to a bad ending IMO

[MartinRacing98]

The most important part to me of FST is the suspension. That is what makes old cars competitive with new cars. FST has kept was is best about FV suspension and got rid of what is worst.

Wings may have turned me away as well. I like that the car is cheap to fix in an accident. In addition if they do nothing for performance then they are a waste. If the do something they are another thing to learn coming from karts.

The water cooled engine that they run is nice. That is probably the nicest thing to run instead of the 1600. But even there with the complications that come with that I am good sticking with the 1600.

[formulasuper]

(This coming from a non-FST racer). Last summer at the Daytona Dbl SARRC I decided to do a little experimenting with & without wings on the RT5 SV, Powered by Hayabusa. The biggest difference I found to be was in braking distance from top speed, turning in off the oval & braking for the back straight chicane. Without the wings my braking distance must have been easily double what it was with the wings installed & set flat as possible. Lap times were about the same either way! W/O the wings running on the highbanks of Daytona was way the fastest I have ever gone in a car!

[Purple Frog]

Why assume wings will slow one down? Top speed... probably. But lap times on most road courses will improve with proper aero, because of braking and cornering speed improvement.

What hurts FST growth currently is probably the economy. When one can buy race ready CF and CFC cars for under $10K, the FST selling point as an economic option is somewhat diluted.

"First get wings, then we add water, later we can add diffusers, and maybe get rid of those ugly torsion bar tubes, ... flip the gearbox over, allow straight cut gears, and get to a proper wheelbase....away with swing axles... oh yeah, the type 4 heads...." it's a slippery slope.

[Jnovak]

The newer FST cars are way cool looking as they are.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Bill Bonow]

I'm sure a few more will post opinions, but I think that after reading what has been posted, there is only one opinion/suggestion that the addition of wings could/may bring in more people.

I think Rick Johnson summed it up pretty good, "If the guys (lookers) are asking for wings then point them to a used FC-- can be had for less than FST!" I tend to agree. I think all of the people involved with FST are in general, very happy with the cars we have. It is a regional only, mechanical grip only, low powered trainer formula car. Trainier meaning go fast in one of these and you'll go fast in most anything. Again, this quest was an attempt to understand the mind of the wannabe racer.

[Bill Bonow]

FWIW, the GAC03 (top thread photo, white/red car) was built with the correct wheelbase for the USA market. Alan Woodward has been looking (not very hard mind you) for someone in the USA to import cars. If anyone is interested, here is his website www.vwracing.net I'm certain the car will need more to make it SCCA legal, but it sure is a nice looking car.

[Keith Carter]

It may also be that some of the would be racers are trying to be nice if the car just doesn't appeal to them. The "If it only had wings" statement may be similar to a situation when you're being set up with someone's sister on a date and you see a picture of her and she's not what you're looking for (even though she may be really nice) and you say, "If only she were a blond". I'd take the statements of the would be racers with a grain of salt... I wouldn't go changing the formula you guys have just come up with so soon if the guys in the current ownership group are happy with it.

[Bill Bonow]

Thanks Keith,

I'll be on the lookout for guys asking me, "would you like to date my seester?".

I feel pretty comfortable that major changes in FST are all done. I mostly wanted to know if we had missed something or not. It's one of those 99.9% deals, but you still want to know the answer. I surely don't want wings, but one has to keep an open mind.

[Daryl DeArman]

The lack of wings turns many (relatively speaking) new young folks looking to step up from karting off. They want something fast and sexy. Putting wings on a FST or FF wouldn't do much to attract them because they'd also be turned off by skinny tires (their rear kart tires are wider), 30+ year old pushrod motors, drum brakes and carbs.

There are other classes that already appeal to that group.

Dance with who brung' ya.

The cars can look nice and the simplicity of the package only adds to the charm. Keep up the good work.

p.s. proper wings would only slow them down on tracks where they don't touch the brakes or lift for corners now.

[formulasuper]

Wings could be made optional, as with FS.

[fezzic181]

There are two forks for optional both bad. Fork one is the wings actually make lap times drop because of better cornering in which case they are no longer an option if you want to win. Fork two is they are in fact nothing but air damns that make the cars slower which means all the folks who join cause wings are cool quit because they can't keep up with the no wing guys.