Limited Driver Schools

[sccadsr31]

Doug Carter,
You may be reading more into the Driver Novice Requirements than is actually there. Two Driver School events can be 2 practice races at one driver school.
San Francisco Region runs one school a year where participants get 6 hours of in car on track, usually 2 practice starts at the beginning of 2 of their on course sessions and 2 races of 3-10 laps depending on how well the schedule is running.
The novice permit is signed off to enter regional races for drivers who complete the 6 hours and the 2 races, all in one 3 day weekend.
David

[dc]

Not reading into anything at all. The GCR specifically states, "Complete at least two (2) Driver School events with a "Satisfactory" rating." That's TWO schools, not two practice races. It is possible to get signed off for your second school if you show that you're not floundering and gasping for air. That's no guarantee of anything, though.

I've gone through the system before, I know what it involves. The point is, regardless of the 2-day schools, most regions are still only on ONE weekend of the year. Miss it and you are on the bench for another 365 days. And your only other options are to drop $4k on a 3-day pro school like Skippy.




Frankly, that sucks.

[sccadsr31]

Doug what I was trying to say is the all the Driver School requirements can be completed in one weekend and does not have to be over 2 different weekends.
David

[problemchild]

Relaxing the standards of our school requirements is not the answer.

More schools, regardless of cost, is the answer.

[John Nesbitt]

When I started in 2003, I was able to do drivers schools on back-to-back weekends at Summit Point and VIR. At the time, I didn't realize how lucky I was to be able to do so.

Both those schools are gone.

It's easy to understand why regions are dropping schools from their schedules - the financials don't work.

But the answer is not to keep dropping schools. We are cutting off our future by doing so. Neither is the answer to lower standards.

I think that we have to attack this problem at the Division or SCCA-wide level:

1. Examine the curriculum, and recalibrate the graduation requirements as necessary.
2. Fund the schools at the Division level. Have the school run by the local region, but do the financials at the Division level, with a tax on all racing regions in the Division, according to licensed membership, to cover any shortfall. It's an investment in our future.

[rickb99]

I dunno fella's and lady's. I described above in the combination of several posts how the other club turns out a substantial number of VERY qualified novices every year. They accomplish it using tracks such as Portland International and Pacfic Raceways and don't go broke doing it. They do it 16 times a year and have to search hard to find enough instructors to handle the entry's (Jeff missed his 1st opportunity due to no room). When you have enough enrollment to do that you're doing something right. And the SCCA can't run even 1 school a year in the region??

When these novices just through school turn out for their 1st novice only races, it's a safe race and quick. As I work SCCA when not racing, I'd say there are MORE calamities in the one weekend SCCA double national then ALL of the other clubs novice races for the entire year. Which is an indication that they've learned the right way (to me).

When a little old regional sanctioning body (with 400+ driver members) can sustain a 12 to 14 race season (plus 2 enduro's) on 5 tracks, they are certainly doing something right that the SCCA is missing.

Just looked back at our March 2008 novice races at Portland THIRTYFOUR novices entered! And thanks to those 16 schools during the year, the final novice only races of the year at Seattle still had 18 entry's. Now that's a steady flow of new drivers going through the program!

The beginning:
http://www.icscc.com/novice.html

Typical sched of schools and races:
http://www.icscc.com/schedule.html

Makes no sense for interested people to do ONE SCCA school a year in Portland then haul 550 plus miles (one way) to do a second school in California months apart.

[DaveB]

If I remember correctly, Way back when-- If a region held a national they were required to also hold a school.

Dave

[DanW]

RickB,

Your description and the website info is consistent with what my friend and former ICSCC driver Bill Root explained to me how your schools are run.

Having affordable, full, fun and frequent schools is how one grows a car club or business.

Years ago, NASA offered area car clubs introductory HDPE events during their regular events. The introductory price of $40 (included membership) included classroom sessions, and ride along instructors. After that introductory day, it was regular price. 20 years ago, NASA barely existed. They are known for being accomodating to the new driver, to get them on track with as little grief as possible.

Thats how the drug pushers do it, give it away to try it, then charge the ones who come back and get them hooked! Thats how I got hooked. I just wanted FF/open wheel and NASA didn't offer it.

Bottom line. SCCA needs to examine their driving school program and make it less painful for the novice to get on track. SCCA needs to make racing like candy.

Regards,
Dan Wise

[rmccown]

It looks like NASA now has run groups for open wheel cars. Does anyone know if they allow them in their HPDEs?

[Dennis Richarson]

Not looking to flame or be flamed, but how many of us come out to instruct/observe/or work at the SCCA schools?

[Marshall Mauney]

Not looking to flame or be flamed, but how many of us come out to instruct/observe/or work at the SCCA schools?

I've offered to instruct twice since I got my national license. Both times I was told that they had enough instructors and didn't need any more. I stopped offering.

[dc]

Not looking to flame or be flamed, but how many of us come out to instruct/observe/or work at the SCCA schools?

Great question. A club run by the people, for the people, and many of us fail to give back to the club with our time and energy.

I know after I get back into the water here, I will certainly make an effort to assist where I can in whatever means I am able.



What about the idea of smaller schools with limited participants, that actually are part of a Regional event weekend? Two race groups (open and closed wheel) and use instructors from racers who are actually in attendance at the track. Those drivers might also be able to get in their own cars and show school participants the right way to do things. Makes more sense than getting motion sickness in someone's F250 before you strap into your own car. Maybe make the smaller school groups available at more events, and require more of them to be able to get your requirements filled, unless the driver shows the ability to be able to handle what he or she is doing. It also would be a better introduction to what a real race day would be like, too.

I'm in favor of more options for new racers. More ways to get the vein tapped. You should have the ability to not only do a Skippy school to get it quick, but a 2-day weekend intensive school, or a 2- or 3-weekend school with time to repair the driver or the car if needed. And spread them out over the summer. A school group (Race Group S) could be even done every race weekend if the registrants warranted it.


I don't want to hear about how they are losing money on schools, either. This isn't a case of making or losing money. It needs to be considered part of marketing and advertising, in that it cannot be quantified in monetary gain or loss at the outset, but you will know it soon if it is working or not. The SCCA needs to invest in their own future--and not in podiums for National race winners to stand on or bigger trophies, either.




Solidify the base, then worry about how to make the chrome shine.

[Bill Bonow]

Not looking to flame or be flamed, but how many of us come out to instruct/observe/or work at the SCCA schools?

Instructor/Observer 4 schools in the past 3 years. Only 1 per year per division, 3 in CenDiv and 1 in Great Lakes.

You do have a valid point. At the last school, yes, there was a low number of students. However, their was also a low number of instructors. I wound up with three open wheel students.

[DaveB]

The drivers schools that Land o Lakes region ran at Brainerd Raceway were not well subscribed, BUT we always had a abundant number of instructors. FYI the instructors were allowed on track in their cars with the students. A perk for the instructors that volunteered.
I realise this would not work At smaller tracks, or with large turn outs.


Dave

[sccadsr31]

First to avoid being misunderstood, I'm not flaming anyone and only trying to point out some issues.

When people speak of not wanting to lower standards, what standards and requirements are you talking about? What section of the GCR are you referring to?
Where are the standards for being an instructor, what competence test is applied to the instructors?

As to not worrying about losing money on driver schools; is your region solvent? Are you willing to pay higher entry fees and membership dues to remain solvent as a region? If you do not know the answers to these question then maybe its time for some education.


Over that past few years SCCA National has attempted to put together Driver School standards. The first committee was unable to complete the mission. I was on the earlier committee and the members simply could not be moved to agree on standards for anything or complete their assigned areas of input. Although I wanted to serve on the latest committe I was already involved with FSRAC and each division only has one representative. I'm not sure of the progress of the current committe but I'll be surprised and pleased if progress is made.

Driver Schools are certainly have been an important part of the SCCA experience; the the open passing in my opinion is the principal and critical difference between SCCA and many other organizations. With all the professional schools and schools in other organizations maybe the SCCA school is no longer necessary or relevant.

Doug,
Regions already have the ability to do a "Double School" that fully satisfies the driver's school requirements to obtain an SCCA Novice permit, SF Region does this over a single 3 day event.

David Arken

[mmi16]

Buccaneer Region Double Drivers School is scheduled Feb 12-15 at Roebling Road outside Savannah, GA.

[Fred Michael]

Dave
I think Dougs point is that with so few schools offered, if you cannot attend that particular weekend or if for some reason cannot complete the weekend then you are screwed for a year until the next available school in your area.
My personal opinion is that SCCA makes it too difficult to get a race license and too difficult to keep a race license. Just my opinion.
In this regard NASA is much more user friendly.

Fred

[Tigaman]

Dave
I think Dougs point is that with so few schools offered, if you cannot attend that particular weekend or if for some reason cannot complete the weekend then you are screwed for a year until the next available school in your area.
My personal opinion is that SCCA makes it too difficult to get a race license and too difficult to keep a race license. Just my opinion.
In this regard NASA is much more user friendly.

Fred

+1!

I've been the Chief Instructor for NC Region (1000+ members) now for close to fifteen years. We had annual schools at NCMS (Rockingham) throughout the Nineties and moved to VIR when it re-opened in 2000. We averaged 45-60 drivers and I usually had 15-20 instructors.

Our last school was 2005. The Region's Comp Board has NOT been supportive of the DS school program stating that the track/weekend/volunteer time is too expensive and should not be allocated to a "money losing event" like a DS.

I've suggested an "Advanced Racecraft" school for licensed drivers, a restricted regional in addition, all kinds of things to enhance the desirability of having DS's for our Region principally because that is the best and major way we can offer our members an entre into road racing, to no avail.

When the Regions HAD to have a school to receive a sanction for a National, there was more incentive for the Region to have one. That was for years the ONLY reason I could get a school going in my Region.

Yes, I'm a graduate of the Savannah Double School 20+years ago and it was fine, but we need more than a few schools in every Division to "lower the barrier," as Fred says.

People want to know why Club Racing is losing participants? A higher (and mre difficult to find) bar for beginners doesn't help.

[azjc]

Question:

Does SCCA exist to serve it's self? Is it's program structured to only meet the needs & desires of it's existing members?

Or...

Does it exist to expose more people to racing, with the hope that they will become part of SCCA?

Or... Some where in between?

Seems to be a theme by a few - Subsidize events like driver schools so you will then have a larger base (membership) to cover all expenses. More drivers at events = lower per car cost. Also a theme of making the schools less intense for both the driver & their equipment - so more people will not only want to participate, but will also succeed.

Issue is not unique to SCCA, just about every organization has the same problem - Reach out to others, or serve those already involved. How far do we go to reach out and at what expense to our existing members? Is it really an expense or an investment?

I don't have the answer (if I did my wifes headaches at work would be gone!), but I do know that if you don't actively reach out your base will eventually shrink and then disappear. Same problem if you make it difficult to become part of a group, you can still set the bar high (SCCA always has done that) but at the same time make it an experience to remember and one that is achievable.

I do find it inexcusable that my region has only 1 school every year, also that it is a double school weekend. I worry about my equipment, if I was a true novice I'd also worry about learning, internalizing and passing the school (way too much pressure). Now I just need to figure out what I could do about it...

[rickb99]

+1!

We averaged 45-60 drivers and I usually had 15-20 instructors.

Our last school was 2005. The Region's Comp Board has NOT been supportive of the DS school program stating that the track/weekend/volunteer time is too expensive and should not be allocated to a "money losing event" like a DS.

That is very discouraging. 45 to 60 drivers in school and it doesn't at least break even? Something is really wrong with that. Maybe it's the difference between putting on a drivers SCHOOL and trying to conduct a drivers training RACE/school. It really is 2 different things.

If the attitude in the 2nd paragraph continues, SCCA will become the SCCS.. Sports Car Club of Solo. Which may be what the leadership wants in the end.

Stan's chart of National participation since 1983 may be more telling then I thought at first. A peak in 1989 then a slow but steady trend downward ever since with a real dip starting in 1998. Considering the overall growth of amateur road racing (accounting for ALL clubs) that SCCA trend line should be going up.

[Tigaman]

Over that past few years SCCA National has attempted to put together Driver School standards. Although I wanted to serve on the latest committe I was already involved with FSRAC and each division only has one representative.

I'm not sure of the progress of the current committe but I'll be surprised and pleased if progress is made.

David Arken

David, please contact Mike Havlick from CCR. He spoke to me about the committee at the Double Nats at Savannah this past July and he's relly on the ball. I think there's been some progress and he would be the one to know.

Thanks for your support of SCCA DS's.

-Peter

[Tigaman]

That is very discouraging. 45 to 60 drivers in school and it doesn't at least break even? Something is really wrong with that.

Rick, the tracks are incredibly expensive now. Barber, Road Atlanta, VIR, Lime Rock are all prohibitively expensive.

When our BoD suggested we host a DS at Rockingham, I bowed out. I could not see people who wanted to race ultimately at VIR going to school at a little roval. Ultimately, they cancelled due to lack of interest.

My current RE is supportive, but the Region Board is not. Again, they're worried about ROI...