Limited Driver Schools

[dc]

So I just downloaded and looked through both the Central and Great Lakes Division schedules for 2009, and both of them have only ONE Driver School on the schedule, and funny enough, they are on back-to-back weekends in April. So if someone were to not be ready for a Spring (potentially snowy midwest) school in 2009, you are pretty much SOL for the whole year. If I miss or just can't make the April school in the CenDiv, I'm out for all of 2009.

This doesn't seem to be a good path to generate new SCCA racers, and while I realize that schools are not "money makers," this is certainly a good way to insure future money losses across the board.


Not to mention that it just creates a logistical nightmare for a new or returning racer.



If the SCCA school system can only manage ONE event for the entire division for the whole year, should the overall school/Novice program and requirements be revisited?

[azjc]

Arizona also has just one each year too - September (end of hot season for us!). This year it was the week after I picked up my car... couldn't make it. Decided I shoot for an HSR West event in Feb. '09, then SCCA in Sept. '09.

I agree that is no way to market your sport, increase market share. I could have tried to pull some strings to relicence... but it's been almost 19 years since since I last held a SCCA National, more like 25 years since an IMSA & FIA.

[BWC54]

You guys think you have it bad. The only one I see listed for the SW Div. is 12/5/09.

[dc]

So with ONE school in each region (and a December 5th, 2009 date is mind-boggling), let's just say that hypothetically you don't get your second school requirement "waived," that literally puts you out of a race car for an entire YEAR waiting for your next local school to come around again.

Asinine.


You want more car counts and better participation for SCCA events across the country? How about making the act of actually getting new racers to come out not so completely uninviting and unnecessarily complicated for starters. Besides the club and licensing fees just to get into a car for the first time, the written requirements for even just a Novice permit are so off-putting, I can see why there is not a lot of new blood.

There has to be a better way—and dropping $4 grand to go to a Skippy school is not my idea of a better way, either.

[cooleyjb]

I may be wrong but the Quad Region School in Cendiv is a Double School I thought. Aren't most fo the divisions that run a single school making them doubles.

[rickb99]

So I just downloaded and looked through both the Central and Great Lakes Division schedules for 2009, and both of them have only ONE Driver School on the schedule,

And, you're "LUCKY", Doug! The Northwest Region has not held a competition drivers school in over FOUR years. Which is just ONE of the reasons we're racing in ICSCC.

They conducted SIXTEEN drivers schools in 2008 and most of them were OVER SUBCRIBED with 16 to 25 plus drivers. A one evening ground school. On the weekend, each driver gets a dedicated instructor for in car training. Speed does NOT count. The instructor paces you and if your race car doesn't have 2 seats, use a street car (Avis works) It's all about fundimentals.

After completing the weekend you then drive in novice ONLY races (on Saturday EACH race weekend) and complete three satisfactorally (under observation and coaching) before getting to play as an 'area driver' in your normal run group. Then, the senior licensed drivers decide when you've master'd the skills to get your senior license.

A FAR BETTER program for getting new racers out then SCCA. And don't try to tell me the training in SCCA is 'better'. IT IS NOT. When a novice completes the ICSCC school they understand the fundimentals of braking, cornering, acceleration and track awareness. Plus they've had the knowledge input from a senior driver in the passenger seat (and drivers seat on occasion) passed on to them. The actual novice races often have 18 to 20 plus cars and are 99% VERY clean and good racing after the school.

Yes, there's a written test. It comes after you've completed your 3 novice races. That's to assure you've picked up all the book learnin before moving in with your regular run group.

BTW:
Some time during novice process you are required to work 1/2 day in timing, tech, flag, and grid.

Far SUPERIOR program to the chaos I went through in Cal. SCCA school for sure. Almost no input from 'instructors' and just 'sloging around' figuring it out on your own.

This is one of the key reasons SCCA struggles to get 50 cars to a regional race (including Track Trials) and the ICSCC race entries are in the 180 to 240 car range.

In SCCA you could attend the ONE drivers school in Portland, OR then tow 550 miles to do your second weekend in California.. sure right. Takes almost an ENTIRE season in SCCA just to get through school.. NO THANKS. Or, pay $4,000 to a pro school. No double thanks.

BTW:
Can't say SCCA track staff is better. There's about a 88% plus cross over of volunteers between all 3 clubs SOVREN, SCCA and ICSCC. All three clubs get the value of one GREAT team of workers.

[dc]

Looks like you are right, Joe. Still, that's a damn long weekend for a beginner, if the car and everything else works perfectly. Crypes, after a hectic 1-day school, most new racers are vegetables. So that's a full day Friday, Saturday and then Sunday if you have anything left in you to run the weekend's Regional. And are they doing the classroom testing on that Thursday now?

Still, that doesn't help the fact that if you can't hit THAT particular weekend, you are left out for a full year.



Still doesn't seem very inviting for a beginning racer.

[TimW]

And are they doing the classroom testing on that Thursday now?

Yes, the Thursday night classroom is part of it, at least it was in 2004. And the classroom presentation is about 3 times longer than necessary to cover the information. It is a long 3 days, but it does get done provided you have able crew.

Tim

[stevestaveley]

Cal Club has a school in Feb of each year, Fri evening, Sat and Sunday - lots of track time - low cost. We have a partnership with the FAST LANE RACING SCHOOL at Willow Springs and they do a school each month which results in your novice permit and it is far, far less that $4,000 but more expensive than our school which in 09 is priced at $450. FAST LANE is an SCCA accredited school.

We looked at doing two schools and did for awhile, but schools are expensive to do and for most regions don't make money infact they lose it. Exception noted for San Francisco Region. That is why we developed the partnership with FAST LANE.

VARA ( HSR- POC - BMW etc also ) licensed drivers having full competition license can come and play with Cal Club and get SCCA insurance for the entry plus $15.00 for a weekend membership and tech the car, and off they go - for the max. of track time. Cal Club only runs double regionals (and 4 SD / Cal Club Nationals) so there is lots of racing and not alot of sitting around. Not only do you get the best insurance, but you get the very best of flaggers, emergency workers etc. and that FRIENDLY Cal Club experience.

Steve Staveley Cal Club RE
FF 59 83 Crossle 55 - number 15 or 18 built.

[Brad Ellingson]

Something to keep in mind Doug. You may be able to substitute a MidwestERN Council school for one of the SCCA schools. I competed with Council in 2003 and asked that both schools be waivered for my SCCA license...that was granted. Talk to Mr. Lybarger about options.

[DanW]

SF Region offers a tech inspection session and classroom instruction the saturday before the school. This maximizes the seat time for the three days at the track.

The memory of the combination fatigue and adrenaline rush is still fresh in my mind from last years' school for me. The superschool is the equivalent of running more than three regional events in one weekend if you add up #sessions and seat time.

What I really appreciated from the entire experience was Dave Hutchings' support, Neil Porter's time and turn by turn advice, the instructors' encouragement, and all the volunteers to ran the school. It was all quite overwhelming. Nothing like having both strangers and friends help hook you on crack cocaine.

One thing is for sure,I think its almost impossible to do the school without experienced crew.

[T644HU05]

Rick, it's funny. A friend and I were talking about licensing, track time for "racing challenged" and such a few days ago. I was feeling all genious like and came up with, well, pretty much everything you mentioned you guys do up there.

I do like that the SCCA will accept other licenses for regionals. This opens up other opportunities for getting a license during the year. That's why you never want to burn bridges.

[steve kramer]

So with ONE school in each region (and a December 5th, 2009 date is mind-boggling),

The SOWDIV school referred to is in 09, since we just did the super school (Fri, Sat, Sun; counts for two), earlier this month. Small turnout, I think 13, with a fair number of Formula cars including one FB. The region almost definitely lost $ with that low of a turnout.

[cooleyjb]

Looks like you are right, Joe. Still, that's a damn long weekend for a beginner, if the car and everything else works perfectly. Crypes, after a hectic 1-day school, most new racers are vegetables. So that's a full day Friday, Saturday and then Sunday if you have anything left in you to run the weekend's Regional. And are they doing the classroom testing on that Thursday now?

Still, that doesn't help the fact that if you can't hit THAT particular weekend, you are left out for a full year.



Still doesn't seem very inviting for a beginning racer.

It's a daunting weekend, especially for an open wheel car that needs a lot of care and feeding after sessions.

After I priced it all out the Skippy weekend wasn't as horrible as I thought. I found a couple of gift certificates that people were selling for 500 bucks off and the cost was about the same and I ended up with a full regional license. When I looked at teh price of tires, entry fees, fuel, and then just general wear and tear on teh car, plus as you have already said, what if the car breaks, it was a much easier decision.

[Northwind]

I will also be in the same situation with Doug. I held a SCCA national license for 8 yrs ending in the early 90's and have been told that I should attend at least one SCCA school for observation. I don't have a problem with that but I am in the early stages of building an FB and it's going to be a mad scramble to complete the car and HOPE it will make the entire weekend. It sure would make sense if the divisions that are next to each other would at least space the schedules a month or so apart. Another option for drivers returning from a previous held SCCA license would be to have the stewards observe the driver at a regional race the same way they treat a novice permit holder. There is still an option to hold back a driver or move them into a full license status based on results. It would also open a window to gain more drivers into the current year events.

[Bill Bonow]

We all know that SCCA is having a tough time bringing in new people to Road Racing and Regions/Divisions will tell you how schools are a loosing proposition. It just seems to me that the schedule of the school and the program itself should not be a frigging April gauntlet that only a few survive (try a "super-school" weekend and see if you make it).

One correction, Great Lakes is not hosting a school this year (note the NE Div on the GL schedule) and that school is a Nelson in early April (read snowing at your drivers school).

We've been putting people through "super schools" in FST's for the past few years and they are hell on everyone (Driver/Crew/Equipment). Our engine hour meter typically shows 8.5 hours when the weekend was completed (Fri/Sat DS and Sun Reg).

There has got to be a better way.

[rickb99]

I do like that the SCCA will accept other licenses for regionals. This opens up other opportunities for getting a license during the year. That's why you never want to burn bridges.

Yes indeed, ICSCC and SCCA have reciprocal license recognition.

Not burning bridges. Just frustrated that SCCA makes it very difficult for new drivers to get started (actually beyond difficult). And, they haven't 'modernized' their licensing program in decades. That plus what Doug has run in to with almost no schools (true in all regions) makes the process more painful then enjoyable.

[Bill Bonow]

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot..... So your lucky enough to make it through your "super school" (the only one for the entire year in your division) and then you can look forward to the wonderful Regional schedule available here in CenDiv

[T644HU05]

Yes indeed, ICSCC and SCCA have reciprocal license recognition.

Not burning bridges. <snip..>

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply you were. My bad...

Cheers!

[DanW]

At least its at the beginning of the season.

Might be a good way to escape the snow for warmer weather...

http://www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4403/26/

SF regions school is Feb 27 to March 1. They have made accomodations in the past to students who could not attend the classroom sessions the week before. Open wheel or fenderedcars can be rented.

Thunderhill is about 2-1/2 hrs from the SF Bay Area, Napa/Sonoma wine country, and 4 hours from Lake Tahoe resorts.

[rickb99]

Our engine hour meter typically shows 8.5 hours when the weekend was completed (Fri/Sat DS and Sun Reg).

There has got to be a better way.

Bill,
That's a PART of why ICSCC would rather see you in drivers school with your every day driver. It's not about speed. It's a question of do you grasp the fundimentals, can you listen and accept guidance and do you understand what's going on around you with other cars? Heck, I've seen drivers take the school in pick up tracks!

At the end of the school your instructor determines your level of sanity, have you progress'd in your understanding of racing would he be willing to have you on the track next to him as a novice and if qualified, you move on to run 3 novice ONLY races. If not, you have an option of trying again in a couple of weeks (not next year).

Race car engine time in school (good on formulas and exotic stuff) ZERO.

[Steve Demeter]

this topic was much discussed at the GLDIV roundtable.

The real problem we had was coming up with a track and an open weekend that did not conflict with another event.

And to be able to put on a DS without losing the entire GLDIV treasury.

Last year's one at Nelson Ledges was successful, but NeDIV did not pur one at NL last year.

It was simply not feasible from a financial perspective to make it happen in 2009.

There was mcuh pain in making this decision.

On the flip side, does St. Louis still not do the double DS with the regional at Gateway on the same weekend next year?

[rmccown]

I'm up here in New England, and school is in April. Its a double school, and I'm worried about everything that everyone is talking about (car longevity, firehose of information, etc). I really wish there was a better way to not have to wait half a season to do two one-day schools, instead of a double.

[DanW]

Rick,

Mike Smith from Portland told me about how things are done in ICSCC for grasshoppers. Sounds like a good idea. NASA uses their HDPE program, but it seems less structured. I do like the way ICSCC uses novice races instead of throwing the grasshoppers to the wolves at the first regional.


Regards,
Dan Wise

[azjc]

Bill,
That's a PART of why ICSCC would rather see you in drivers school with your every day driver. It's not about speed. It's a question of do you grasp the fundimentals, can you listen and accept guidance and do you understand what's going on around you with other cars? Heck, I've seen drivers take the school in pick up tracks!

At the end of the school your instructor determines your level of sanity, have you progress'd in your understanding of racing would he be willing to have you on the track next to him as a novice and if qualified, you move on to run 3 novice ONLY races. If not, you have an option of trying again in a couple of weeks (not next year).

Race car engine time in school (good on formulas and exotic stuff) ZERO.

I do see one problem with that... you could be thrown into a race weekend with NO seat time in the actual car you're going to race. Now it sounds like in your example that would not be an issue... but could be with others.

For me I've got a crap load of time in all kinds of sedans... but none in an open wheel car. I'd not even think about going out in open SCCA practice with experianced drives having never driven the type of car I'm now racing.

As someone relicencing I'm more interested in becoming comforable in a new type of car and a refresher after sitting out for a number of years then proving I know basic car control, flags or line. An SCCA or HSR school seems to offer that.

[dc]

I've been thinking a lot about this since getting a new car and working out the game plan to get back to where I was before. At a certain point, too, I stopped thiking about the hoops I needed to jump through to get back into a car, and more about racers who have NEVER been strapped into a race car at speed. The other thread in the SCCA forums about what can be done to improve Nationals really triggered something with me, too. It seems like this shouldn't be a regional or divisional problem, but really a National SCCA issue that needs to be addressed.

You [SCCA] can't worry about car counts and lack of participation, and then not offer any means to get new racers into the fold (or at least not make it really difficult and uninviting). This needs to be something that SCCA as an organization needs to develop a plan to make it feasible for all regions to make it not only easy, but realistic for someone to start racing.

If I was just starting out from scratch, coming from say track days or autocrossing, and I was ready to race, the first thing I would do is look through the GCR to find out what I needed to do. I would see that TWO Driver Schools were required just to complete a Novice License requirement. I'd find my region and look at the schedule for the upcoming year. I'd immediately see that there was ONE or maybe zero school weekends in 2009, do the math and close the door on the idea to race with the SCCA. My next step would be to go find a 125 shifter kart and never think about the SCCA again.

This is potentially a fatal flaw in the SCCA's current system.

At a glance, it's not difficult to figure out why schools would tend to lose money. Besides the volume and numbers of racers, plus the workers and help needed to put a school on, it's a lot of infrastructure to have a very small group of people using a track for a whole day. Besides that, a couple of hours of research on a community board like ApexSpeed potentially will scare the hell out of a neophyte before they ever purchase one Nomex sock. And having gone through them, we all know it's an absolutely overwhelming experience—even with good crew and a perfectly running car. And good luck if your freshly-finished race car that you have never driven before is suffering teething pains.


Something needs to be done to make the process not necessarily easier, but surely more inviting and not so intimidating to new racers. Maybe the answer lies in weekday schools where the atmosphere is a bit more relaxed and not so scurried all day. Maybe it's smaller schools that take place as one or two race groups on the actual day of a Regional event. I don't know—I don't have any real solutions, but it's pretty obvious that if you close the front door to the store, you aren't going to get any more customers. This needs to be fixed from the top, and not left for the individual regions to figure out independant of each other.

[rickb99]

I do see one problem with that... you could be thrown into a race weekend with NO seat time in the actual car you're going to race. Now it sounds like in your example that would not be an issue... but could be with others.

AZ,

We certainly were concerned about that. Jeff had never been in ANY race car let alone an open wheeler with a Hewland box. We used an early in the year HPDE day to give him massive amounts of seat time under totally controlled conditions to figure the car out on the track. He could work out the mechanics of driving and enjoy the car at low to medium speeds. Worked just fine. Then he went through drivers school in a sedan.

With the program of novices ONLY for your 1st three races, you aren't thrown in with the lions first times out. The novices work up to speed at their own pace in this environment and senior drivers are observing at many, many corners to coach and determine if the students are coming up to speed. Works just fine. It means setting aside the time during the Saturday(s) schedule for a novice practice and novice race. Considering the success in expanding the driver base in the club, well worth the effort.

COST:
There's been a lot of mention of the "cost" to put on a drivers school. How is the cost controlled by 'that other club'. Simple, this is NOT a race! So you do not incur all of the costs associated with a race weekend. E-crew, ambulance on duty. Only need one worker per corner (real volunteers). Control functions are handled by the instructors. It could be called a VHPDE... VERY high performance driving experience.

Is this some kind of sour grapes? NO. I'm out there working SCCA (I'm a member and proud of it), SOVREN and ICSCC races whenever we aren't racing. None of us want to see the NWR fold their racing program due to lack of participation. Yes, drivers do cross over. But, when NWR runs a double national and only 1 regional for the rest of the year, that isn't a racing program that can sustain itself.

Whenever I've brought this up within SCCA, the response I've gotten is a pointing finger. 'There's Proformance Racing School over there in that building. Go spend $4,000 and come out and race'. Sorry SCCA, there's a way for 1/10th that price that's 'almost' as good and we don't even wear out the race car in the process.

This attitude (and lack of change) has lead to a Catch 22 for SCCA. Lack of drivers but lack of willingness to train new drivers so there's a lack of drivers. Duhhh.

Oh. P.S.
ICSCC competition license - $75 a year (including membership).

[rmccown]

I wonder if something like this isn't feasible? What about a mentoring, or racecraft apprenticeship program, and have HPDE-like events where me and my mentor get to work together in a medium-speed, non-race, non-school environment? I'd gladly pay $300-$400 for a weekend like that, where I get one-on-one instruction on everything from how to shift the hewland on up. It'd be a GREAT way to get someone ready for school without having them resorting to driving their car around local parking lots, and then, once at school, having to absorb and 'get taught' racecraft. Schools could then be a 'The mentor thinks he's ready, is he?' half-day of tracktime and rules review,

[azjc]

I began in the early 70's in the Solo I program run by SCSC / CalClub - a GREAT place for a solid foudation in racing. I later used it as test hours when running IMSA & B Sedan cars... cheap, relativly safe & low key.

At that time I ran my street BMW in what was IT (only one class - SCSC Class K cars). First time I had ever been on a race track was a BMWACA 1 day school run by Bonurant at the old Ontario Motor Speed Way... Scared the crap out of me on the oval!

So when I went to Solo I school at Riverside I already had an idea of what I was into. I had a good instructor, learned enough to be safe. Got a lot of track time, worked corners on a regular basis (you had to) and started to learn how to actually go around a track the right way. Eventually I built a IMSA RS car and started serious racing.... not a bad way to learn and place to move up from.

The Solo I program back then was quite good, at times the car count would be over 100 cars! And a good portion of them were race cars, only a few (like IT & SS) doubled as street cars. You could only pass on the streights on drivers left where marked by cones and with a signal from the other driver. Got a lot of track time, then 2 timed runs on Sunday. Roll bar & belts were about the only safety items needed along with helmet & nomex. Used the Solo I program as a model for some of the early BMW club track events at Willow, Riverside & Laguna in the late '70's. BTW - The instructor never rode with you, they could drive you in your car or one supplied by BMW though (David Hobbs was real happy when I told him that - been scared more then once!).

Now I see programs like the old Solo I offered by others - But I don't see them offered by SCCA. Maybe they (we?) need to get back to basics with an entry level program, a simple place to begin, a low pressure fun time - others seem to be able to do it, some even make $$.

[Lynn]

On the flip side, does St. Louis still not do the double DS with the regional at Gateway on the same weekend next year?

The St. Louis Region will not have a double DS next year. We didn't have one this year. It was held by the Mid-South Region this year. The schedule for 2009 is still tentative as I understand it, but it shows a double DS at MAM on April 17-19.

The Double DS's were a financial disaster for both STL and Mid-South Regions. I hope they have better luck at MAM

[Bill Bonow]

It seems like this shouldn't be a regional or divisional problem, but really a National SCCA issue that needs to be addressed.

Doug,

I couldn't agree more. However, this is the point where the SCCA bureaucracy machine starts to sound like a well tuned F1 engine playing "God Save the Queen". The regions/divisions talk about the finacial loss and your local area director will talk about national has nothing to do with it. Meanwhile, the newbie drivers lists get shorter and shorter every year. I guess if everyone keeps that thought process going, at some point in the soon future, SCCA can just stop holding drivers schools at together.

[Marshall Mauney]

One part of the solution would be pretty easy to implement.

There are two things a new driver needs to learn to be ready for racing:

1) They need to be comfortable on a track at speed in a race car.

2) They need to know how a SCCA race works, i.e., flags, grid procedures, starts, having the car quit running on the way to grid, protests, fights in impound, etc.

Now, most people who are going to successfully become drivers can get through the items in part (2) in a single school, so the real need for two schools is based on the 6 hours of total on-track experience.

Why not allow a recent HPDE (or equivalent from another organization) to substitute for one school? This way, we can use the talent available at the various other organizations, allow someone to use their street car for at least part of the program, and get more leverage out of the schools we do host.

Thoughts?

[Keith Carter]

Why not allow a recent HPDE (or equivalent from another organization) to substitute for one school? This way, we can use the talent available at the various other organizations, allow someone to use their street car for at least part of the program, and get more leverage out of the schools we do host.

Thoughts?

Good idea Marshall, but I'm not exactly sure if the things covered in the HPDE are 100% relevant to SCCA wheel to wheel racing. I've only instructed an HPDE and not been on the classroom side of things so I don't know if they go over all of the flags and other situations you would see in a wheel to wheel scenario as opposed to hotlapping. They don't go over starts or anything else like that when on track either. I would imagine a HPDE would amount to something, but I'm not sure what.

[captaineddie1975]

This probably would get laughed out of the BOD boardroom but how about the idea of the National HQ subsidizing the region to the extent that they reimburse the money lost by the region that conducted the school. At least the Regions budget wouldn't be totally destroyed and since the schools wouldn't be so financially damaging they might put on two a year instead of one. Benefit to the National HQ would be an increase in members and participation. Charge the budget expense to advertising or recruiting.

[Marshall Mauney]

Good idea Marshall, but I'm not exactly sure if the things covered in the HPDE are 100% relevant to SCCA wheel to wheel racing. I've only instructed an HPDE and not been on the classroom side of things so I don't know if they go over all of the flags and other situations you would see in a wheel to wheel scenario as opposed to hotlapping. They don't go over starts or anything else like that when on track either. I would imagine a HPDE would amount to something, but I'm not sure what.

I agree that you still need to do at least one full school, but I frankly found having to do the written test and flag drills again to be somewhat of a waste of time. You really only need to successfully get through those items ONCE - the rest is a matter of getting comfortable being on-track at speed around other cars. HPDE or any other intermediate/advanced track day program can accomplish that easily.

[Bill Bonow]

This probably would get laughed out of the BOD boardroom but how about the idea of the National HQ subsidizing the region to the extent that they reimburse the money lost by the region that conducted the school. At least the Regions budget wouldn't be totally destroyed and since the schools wouldn't be so financially damaging they might put on two a year instead of one. Benefit to the National HQ would be an increase in members and participation. Charge the budget expense to advertising or recruiting.

Captin,

This is along the same lines as I was thinking. It seems to me that an investment by our club in future drivers would be a good thing, sort of like Grecian Formula to slowly restore color to the graying of SCCA. But your most likely correct.... I can hear the laughter already.

[problemchild]

I just sent a copy of Doug's post (from the top of page 2) and a link to this thread to the BOD. I hope they take the time to read it.

[SteveLevin]

Why not allow a recent HPDE (or equivalent from another organization) to substitute for one school? This way, we can use the talent available at the various other organizations, allow someone to use their street car for at least part of the program, and get more leverage out of the schools we do host.

I completely agree that a properly structured HPDE with an instructor in car could be coupled with a single competition driver's school with no significant loss (and quite possibly a net gain) of experience for new drivers. Those who feel comfortable and pick it up in just one HPDE day, great. If they feel that want (or the instructor decides they need) a bit more practice, they can do that.

Call it a two part system with "driving basics" (learned with an instructor in car) and "competition basics" (the single driver's school).

Steve

[rmccown]

I completely agree that a properly structured HPDE with an instructor in car could be coupled with a single competition driver's school with no significant loss (and quite possibly a net gain) of experience for new drivers. Those who feel comfortable and pick it up in just one HPDE day, great. If they feel that want (or the instructor decides they need) a bit more practice, they can do that.

Call it a two part system with "driving basics" (learned with an instructor in car) and "competition basics" (the single driver's school).

Steve

What about the issue where my daily driver (4x4 PU) handles nowhere near like what my FF does, nor does it give me any experience dealing with a Hewland transmission? I'm pretty sure I can find a reasonable line around a track in my truck at a safe speed, but doing that at probably double the speed in my FF is a whole 'nother shootin' match.

[azjc]

What about the issue where my daily driver (4x4 PU) handles nowhere near like what my FF does, nor does it give me any experience dealing with a Hewland transmission? I'm pretty sure I can find a reasonable line around a track in my truck at a safe speed, but doing that at probably double the speed in my FF is a whole 'nother shootin' match.

As an example... Old Riverside turn 1 (almost the fastest part of the short course).

In a race car did not notice a bump.

In a street BMW 733i with full Aplina suspension did not notice a bump.

Stock 733i - just about lost it! Wow, after years of racing I'd never noticed it.

Front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, front engine, rear or mid engine, radial street tire, bias race tire, street car, race car... they are all so different at speed, and the speed differential can cause some surprises!

I'd also say that I've got a different opinion of having a student ride or drive with an instructor. After trying it as a passenger I've found that a student can learn much more by riding and not only seeing how it's down, but getting the feel. Just can't do that when you're in the passenger seat and barking out instructions quicker then a student can internalize it. Besides... most beginner drivers scare the crap out of me at speed.