Considering a FF for CM

[cmk]

Hello everyone. I've been running CS and ES (in a Miata) since I started autocrossing five years ago. I attend national events and the national championships routinely, and I'm competitive in the class (a number of national wins and good results at Topeka/Lincoln).

The idea of getting a Formula Ford for CM has gotten into my head over the last month or so. I wish that I had spent some time looking at cars and talking to a few of you in Lincoln, but I wasn't even aware that I could potentially afford to buy one at the time.

I like the fact that CM is sort of the "stock" class of the mod classes. I like to work on cars, have good mechanical abilities and an engineering degree, so I'm not afraid of a bit of work. However, I don't have enough free time to be constantly working on a fragile timebomb of a vehicle. A FF seems like a good way to get into a "real" racecar without having to constantly be fixing nagging problems. That would take the fun out of it for me.

I've done a bunch of reading here and on SCCAForums trying to get myself up to speed, but unfortunately I don't have a CM racer locally that can provide experience and advice. So, I'm relying on you guys to help me out.

I keep looking at the car in the link below and thinking that this might be a good place to start. Trouble is, I don't even really know what questions to ask. I'd want a car that had the potential to win (though I realize that the car will likely need some work to get it there).

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36481

I understand that a FF engine will last 40-50 hours. What are the costs like to get one rebuilt? Do I need to build a grenade to be competitive?

Any pointers on gearsets? Are these complicated to change out? How many am I likely to need to adjust for different sites/courses? Oh, and the car I linked to says that it has a fixed first gear. What does that mean?

What tires do you guys run?

As I'm sure you know, in stock classes shocks are hugely important because it's one of the only tuning tools that we have available. How critical are they in a FF?

I really appreciate any help that you can give me.

Thanks!
Chris Kirkham

[PCalhoun]

Many of us competing in CM started exactly as you did, coming out of a stock class. For myself it was DS, for Godula it was GS, Barry Ott came out of CS and on down the line.

Shopping for a racecar is really no different than shopping for any used car. You just have that initial feeling of unfamiliarity that makes it seem different. So is the car clean and well kept? Does the owner have good records? Does he seem honest in his communication & dealings? The beauty of CM is that we are all running the same engine & gearbox, so you can then just worry about tuning the chassis to your liking.

As to car prep, the community here on ApexSpeed is second to none in answering questions, but it is always good to have a local resource also. Someone on here would be able to recomend a local race prep shop for jobs that are out of your comfort zone or skill set.

As to your specific questions, a Kent motor in an auto-x environment is very stout. With normal maintenance consisting of changing the oil, plugs, and adjusting the valves. This is stuff that is done 1x or 2x a year depending on how frequently you are running.

The top cars are running pro built motors, but they are in no way "gernades." You can search the site for mulitple rebuild cost discussions, but they vary greatly based on how they have been maintained and if all the upgrades have been done. The two most important in a rebuild being the new pistons and lightened flywheel for auto-x.

For tires every one runs on Hoosier R25B slicks using the 7" front and traditional size FF1600 rear on a 13x5.5 rim. They run about $800/set and last about 70 runs. Though you would not want to use them at a Tour or National w/ that many on them.

Gearsets are rarely changed, but should be checked at least once a year for damage & wear. The fixed layshaft first gear is a necessity for auto-x. This gear has the first gear machined out of the shaft, unlike a traditional slide-on Hewland gear. It results in a stronger and lower gear for our standing starts and tight corners with a speed of approx 42-48MPH depending on the ratio. Check out Taylor Race Engineering (TRE) for more info on the Hewland Mk9 gearbox, which is used in the majority of cars.

Yes, shocks are important for a multitude of reasons and in many cases much more modern than what is being run in stock classes. That said the Bilstein non-adjutsbale shock is still very reliable and idiot proof piece when you are developing your driving and the car. So suspension development will be the biggest learning curve coming from a production based car, as you will have a lot more tools to work with: shocks, springs, bars, ride height, rake, alignment, corner weights, brake bias, pad compound, etc. A good baseline set-up, however, can be had pretty quick so do not be intimidated. The Carroll Smith "Pocket Enginneer" book is a god-send for quick, concise tuning tips.

There are a number of competitive chassis out there to fit all budgets. Most will be fully depreciated, so if you decide the class is not for you, it can be sold without losing a ton. Don't get that in stock classes for sure. The cars are light and can be towed on an open trailer behind almost anything. And unlike FM you will have a more modern car w/ a traditional 4-stroke automotive engine.

Jim Garry, Chris Pruett, & myself are on here often, as are other CM competitors. Shoot away w/ your questions as it is our goal to grow class participation by showing people how affordable the class can be in compariosn to a stock or street prepared class or even ST w/ the tire war going on.

[Dick R.]

Chris,

Welcome (hopefully) to CM. The 86 VD that you linked to is very likely a good choice given that it is already set up for autocrossing and appears to be a proven local winner in an area with what I understand is a fairly active CM class. Plus it really isn't far from Pittsburg.

An 86 VD is basically an English copy of Peter Calhoun's Swift with a potential advantage (besides lower cost) of side radiators for cooling between runs. Swift rads are under the bodywork behind the roll hoop.

I was always competitive with my 85 VD even though at Nationals I didn't have a codriver (except 2001). You probably could not do better assuming you fit in the car and one of the previous National Champion cars isn't for sale.

FYI and advantage, in my opinion, of a car that has been an autocrosser for many years is that the chassis has been "beat up a lot less" than a mostly road racer.

Dick
CM 85
85 Van Diemen RF-85

[Dick R.]

Chris,

If you pursue the 86 VD and have any questions about stuff that may be common to the very similar 85 VD, let me know. I can either translate what the seller is telling you or send you pics of mine. As Peter said the stock Bilsteins perform well (if the car still has those) and can be inexpensively rebuilt by Bilstein in California (unless they stopped doing this). I changed to Koni 3011/12's after many years with the Bilsteins). Nice thing about CM is you don't have to use just shocks and a front bar to make the car handle extremely well and have the balance you want. In fact, hack that I am, I set the shocks fairly soft rather than try to adjust balance with them. FYI I bought my car in 1991 and ran it seriously through Spring 2002 until job change made autocrossing a lower priority. Usually trophied at Nats and won a couple of Pro Solo Challenges (plus one Bonus Challenge) so the car is probably faster than me. I'm doing minor freshening this winter after only running maybe a dozen or two events since 2002. I figure mine will be an estate sale someday (I'm close to retirement from work) since I never want to deal with the "car of the week" in Stock. FYI I also came from Stock and "barely Street Prepared".

Dick

[cmk]

Big thanks to both of you. I've contacted the seller to get more information from him on the car.

A quick question... Is it likely that I'll be able to find a group to run the car with for an occasional track day? I'm concerned about finding a group that would allow open wheel cars. Someone local to me mentioned that it might be tough, which would be a real shame. It's something that I think that I'd like to be able to do every once in a while to get some seat time and have some fun. I'm local to BeaveRun, and 75 miles from Nelson Ledges, so it would be easy for me to get to both.

[Dick R.]

Big thanks to both of you. I've contacted the seller to get more information from him on the car.

A quick question... Is it likely that I'll be able to find a group to run the car with for an occasional track day? I'm concerned about finding a group that would allow open wheel cars. Someone local to me mentioned that it might be tough, which would be a real shame. It's something that I think that I'd like to be able to do every once in a while to get some seat time and have some fun. I'm local to BeaveRun, and 75 miles from Nelson Ledges, so it would be easy for me to get to both.

Chris,

You are welcome!

Lots of track day info in this thread:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37205

You might find that your Miata would be a more practical choice, especially if the autocross formula ford doesn't have all its safety equipment originally.

Dick