Engine failures

[Brandon Dixon]

Brandon has some insulation that is an inconel/fiberglass/inconel sandwich as a heat shield between the exhaust and the engine. It does a lot to keep exhaust heat out of the engine/oil/oil filter and we both think that it should protect the car from fire as the oil should all be hitting the insulation which should be well under 200*. I think some oil might be able to get around the heat shield (maybe), but not enough to produce a car consuming fire. Hopefully we never have to find out.

I used:
http://www.koolmat.com/heatmast.shtml

The heat master shield is the one with that is an Inconel sandwich. I used a piece that is 12" x 13" between the engine and the exhaust. I believe that it would contain engine parts and oil.

Brandon

[Brands]

I've heard good things about these guys (http://www.westperformance.co.uk/) from guys running bike motors back in the UK.

[glenn cooper]

Coop checking in.
Jake, sorta embarased to admit, but NO data on my car. I need some more semsors and the software and I guess a cable as well. Pi 2 system.
So I really can't tell you about dips. I am however looking at the display quite often and at different places an d don't see any dips in cornering or braking on the dash itself. Prolly not real scientific, but...
Yeah 45 psi hot is about it.
Not sure about my roundy friends' year motors, good point, I'll give him a shout when I get back to ATL.
GC

[urbanimports02]

our testing for the BRD dry sump system is kind of concluded for now. final results for peak pressure were conclusive that what we are seeing for pressure is as good as it gets. at 230-240 oil temp we were seeing around 58-59psi and when heating all the way to 265 we were seeing 51-52psi. further looking at the pressure relief valve showed it didnt even open, we even capped it off completely and saw no difference. we further looked into recent testing of a few different zx10's to see if they were having a similar issue and saw that wetsump on georges dyno they showed right around 70-72psi and dry sumped they saw about 62-64psi. i looked at data of a dry sumped kawasaki and saw 72psi, but that car was running at 200 oil temp. niether george nor i ever really looked closely at this stuff before, as they just worked, but looking closely at oil pressure and temperature has been really eye opening. i guess we are looking too closely at this. many people have been running dry sumped with no problems except for the recent kropp failures which are only making 40-45psi and are only single scavenge. i heard that niki coello was having a power problem as he got going and it reminded me of when we were running kropp systems on the zx10. as we got the car going faster and and pushing harder, we started seeing this and discovered it was because under braking and sustained lateral g's, we were filling the motor up with oil and then the motor would lose major power as the clutch and crank started cutting through oil. i once shut the motor down as soon as we saw this problem and saw that the engine was full of oil and there was very little left in the tank. we then looked closely at data and saw that we were actually getting a pressure dip under braking right after the turn that we were really experiencing the power draw. i made mods to the system and the probelm went away and that is when i designed a dual scavenge system. i guess the real benefit of the dry sump is eliminating the pressure dips under braking and lateral g's and the power improvement. we have been running dual scavenge dry sump with the kawasaki for 3 years now with zero oil related failures, and very few failures period.
george will be testing the nova dry sump soon to see what it does for pressure. our conclusion is that if you want better pressure, you have to get better flow on the intake side. you would have to port the inlet of the pressure pump which appears to be the biggest restriction in the system. next you have to get the oil line from tank to pan as short as possible and minimize bends. if you can replace a 90 with a 45, is will help a bit. if you really think more pressure is necessary, i can build you a custom system with external pressure pump, but it would require mods to the lower case and cost a bit more. guess it depends on what you think you need.

[kmt63]

jesse you mind helping russ out over in the car building section.he has some questions on modding a kropp dry sump for an 07 kawi.http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...172#post219172

[JakeL]

Jesse:

1.) Were these results with the standard Suzuki pump, high volume pump, or the stock pump with the inlet ported? (or, you're saying to get BEYOND your results, you'd have to do the port work?)

1a.) If ported, does this preclude from using that engine in a backup wet sump configuration?

1b.) If the high volume pump, is that a necessary change, then?

Essentially, the thrust of my question is, can the BRD system be used with an otherwise stock engine?


2.) Sounds like stock relief valve is sufficient, then?

3.) What oil were you using? Redline 40WT?

4.) Was the tested system the prototype with the scavenge pump in place of the water pump, or the design you mentioned back on page 2 or 3 with the internally driven scavenge pump?

Encouraging results.

-Jake

[urbanimports02]

jake the test was with standard oil that george uses on the dyno, nothing fancy or even synthetic. the high volume pump did no better and actually acted kind of funny. between that and a multitude of other tests led us to conclude that the problem is on the inlet side. the testing was performed on the system which replaces the water pump. its not a prototype system, i will still offer this system to those that want the lower profile, just building the system with internal scavenge to meet a current demand. porting the inlet to the stock pressure pump will only improve it, wet sump or dry sump. it wouldnt take much, just take care of the sharp lines of the factory machine work. we looked at lots of data and conclude that all systems showed a 5-10psi drop in peak pressure no matter the engine manufacture or dry sump manufacture. i have heard the older r1 didnt show this but it was pressure relieved at a lower peak pressure, so never saw the drop. this matches info i have discussed with other system designers that gerotors are sensitive to inlet design, with there main benefits being improved oil pressure pulse and less power draw. the new system uses a deeper pan, so i will have more room to maximize flow into the stock pump, couple this with porting the inlet in the motor, and i am sure we can get the pressure closer to wetsump. i do not believe getting more pressure then stock is as necessary as eliminating the pressure dips. thats what kills these engines. my system at 8500rpm shows about 40-45psi, which should help since most see 20ish under braking even at higher rpm then that. we will aslo maybe play with allowing the tank to pressurize. i have not really agreed with it, but larry kropp claims its the cats meow. he uses a radiator cap, but i am looking into a better method of doing this to eliminate heavy mods to existing tanks. the claim is by puting about 4psi of pressure in the tank, it helps get oil into the motor. i see how it could work, just not proper in my mind as all systems i have ever been involved with have been vented, but i can keep an open mind.

[JakeL]

Something else I learned over the weekend.

Rilltech tells me that in the Speads, they actually install the engines slightly more upright in the chassis, so that the front bottom of the pan is somewhat higher than the rear, to discourage that forward movement of oil on the brakes. That doesn't help the Stohr guys much, since we're somewhat constrained by the rear spar, but it's worth mentioning anyway...

Jesse, will talk to you today.

-Jake

[LLoshak]

Lee, the p/u is toward the rear of engine, definately the second half, I didnt mean the absolute edge, maybe I made it sound that way. But its definately not in the front.

Jesse,

at 230-240 oil temp we were seeing around 58-59psi and when heating all the way to 265 we were seeing 51-52psi.

my system at 8500rpm shows about 40-45psi

Are you saying at 8500 its already at 40-45 and peaks out at 60? Because it sounds like you are saying your system can only produce 45psi. Just want to clarify.

Sounds like you agree with me about the restrictor plate theory on the inlet of the pump in the lower case.

Is a -16 inlet possible from tank to pan? Can bore be enlarged anymore in pan?

[LLoshak]

UPDATE & PICS:

Pic below showing how far toward rear p/u is. With our WS p/u installed p/u is moved forward about 1", still less than mid-way.




So far so good, I will close up gaps more but just a pic for an update. I did flatten out and bend up the flanges to create a bigger box and keep oil from going into clutch basket when turning left. And removed flange entirely on rear of box (of lid) so under braking oil rushes in. Also crank is right above box now so oil off the crank will flow into box. Relief is also in box, but I dont think its venting anything anyway, but its there if it does.

[jjstecher]

Badass lawrence. Cant wait to see what happens with it at the Cat.

[LLoshak]

Thanks John!

Another cool thing is, the p/u is tilted so it wont completely drain when the car is off and sits for any amount of time, so less dry starts and easier for pump to prime.

Cant wait either! And hopefully report that theres no dipping!

[Lee Stohr]

Should be great under braking !
Hope it works the other 98% of the time under acceleration

[urbanimports02]

yes, the system makes around 45psi at around 8500rpm, and climbs to 58-59psi at peak. not much room to go much bigger on the porting, it is already slightly larger then -12, and i do not have a -16 fitting that will fit my pan, only -8, -10, -12. i will be porting it as much as possible and its ready to be run in the car with a few minor tweaks to the system. i agree with lee, that is a bit scary forward. and if you have any uphill straights, game over! that would not work at thunder hill or sears over here!

[LLoshak]

I dont think so guys. I looked into this too.

At .45G (max I ever see under accel for a split second then .33G) to simulate .45G you would tilt engine back 12*. Even at 15* P/U will still be covered and door will close at back of box and oil coming from crank area will flow right into box filling it. Not to metion oil level is higher than lid (above sight glass at 6k).

Well, if you dont see me in the race you'll know why. If I see any dips, I'll be pulling off and ending the weekend, cant afford another motor failure.

[LLoshak]

Ok, since you gys scared me and I realized the p/u would also now be in the way of one of the doors, I'm moving the p/u back 1". This will be more central and definately be in oil durring accel. Plus, wait til you see the lid!

Should have more pics tomorrow.

[LLoshak]

Sorry, pics were taken with my I-Phone.

The modded lid:






The new/revised p/u to allow doors to fully open:





Fingers are crossed!!! But I think we can kiss our dipping goodbye! But only with a DS can we stop over filling.


But I really believe this will work and all of us DSR, CSR and FB guys can now concentrate on racing!

[Wright D]

That looks so much like the FSAE pick up and baffle I made it is scary. I think that that should work quite well.

[RussMcB]

Hey, just thought of this, kind of on topic. While you folks are working on your pans you might want to add a magnet or two to help keep junk out of the system.

I've got two of these in mine:

http://www.magneticdrainplug.com/Ind...lugs/IP03.html

Every little bit helps.

PS. I saw a ZX-10 system with a swing arm pick up. I haven't heard anyone talking about that option (or did I miss it?).

This pan on ebay has one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=120448134827

[ghickman]

[quote=RussMcB;219718]
PS. I saw a ZX-10 system with a swing arm pick up. I haven't heard anyone talking about that option (or did I miss it?).

Russ
Great idea for sure. That type of swing pickup works. I fly an Aerobatic plane with an inverted dry sump oiling system and that's how it's done. The g's I pull doing acro are much higher and sustained than my FB....

Someone should try this....maybe I'll machine one and be the test pig.

Gary Hickman
FB #76

[glenn cooper]

Crikey, There's a hole in that engine where a rod blew out, I don't think it's gonna work so flash .

Seriously though, that plate looks nicely thought out. When I ran my wet pan, all it had was a flat baffle plate, with a rather large rectangular opening in the middle of it. While good enough to win with this setup at '08 Sprints, I did not get a chance to really test the longevity, due to detonating that engine at Barber 2 races later. I've since put that (blowup/fire) down to VHR (Very High Revving) in the neighborhood of rev limiter comin' on, and after that episode turned down the wick to 12k or so.
That seemd to do the trick, as that engine went 7 weekends, before weirdness crept in at WGI. I am going to run a mechanical OP gauge along with the electrical VDO sensor dealie; I think the press sender may be AFU as it showed 11 psi at WGI and I kept going, hopeful of making half distance and 2nd place points. Although I dialed it back and short shifted, the OP did come back after a few FCY laps. I can't get my head around that actually happening, OR the engine surviving at 10k rpm on 11 psi!!

We are slaves to our instrumentation/data, and it may be flawed!

GC

[Lee Stohr]

The swinging pickup pan is where your pan came from to start with.
Buy one here - http://shop.koenigeng.ihoststudio.co...?productid=010

[RussMcB]

The swinging pickup pan is where your pan came from to start with.

Lee, it sounds like you have some history with it. Did you consider using it but determined it wouldn't work for some reason?

[JakeL]

I have no personal experience with it, but Richard told me it doesn't work at all for us.

I think perhaps Lee's having a little chuckle at our collective expense...

-Jake

[RussMcB]

That's cool. I'm just trying to help. I'll feel guilty if I start picking up a lot of race wins because Suzukis can't hold together. :-).

Oh, man, I'm really going to regret posting that. :-).

[LLoshak]

Dustin,

Great minds think alike!!


IMHO, I'd stay away from the swinging p/u. Just another mechanical thingy that can fail not to mention air leak at the pivoting portion.

[Lee Stohr]

I think Joshua Held used one on his DSR, no one else was brave enough as far as I know.
Contact him on DSR Forum or LinkedIn.

[killboy]

What about a thin-ish hose (silicone?) with a weight at the end? I know they use these in RC Helis to keep the pickup in the fuel during inverted flight...basically a length of silicone tubing with a metal nut at the end.

[HastyHorn]

To point out the obvious...the pickup needs to be able to move 360 degrees to compensate for acceleration/deceleration (my Physics Prof would go nuts and point out that they are the same thing) and cornering. A flexible tube might try to do ALL of that but to do that without kinking is too much to ask. Note that the pivoting pickup displayed above allows full rotation. The problem I have with this design is that the pickup must be able to move freely (thus a bearing) but must be sealed if it is going to maintain the suction necessary to draw oil. Tough requirements.

Hasty Horn

[kmt63]

i think that swinging pickup did have a bearing on it.not sure how it sealed.joshua pinned his so it would only swing so far forward and back.if that pickup did a 360.it could take a bit of time to swing back to where the oil is.

[urbanimports02]

The swinging pickup uses a bearing and a good old spring loaded lip seal just like the ones on your trailer axles. They work just fine as far as sealing goes.

[Matt Conrad]

We did run the Koenig "Swinging Pickup" pan in some of the early Maloy SR's and didn't have any problems (that I know of)...but I don't think the pickup swings 360 degrees....from memory it only had about 75 degrees of travel from the front right (clutch side) to the rear.

All the production F1000's had the Wet Sump system that we got through George Dean (same one the Stohr's and many others are using) and we've had no issues. I believe Dustin is still using that system on the new F1000 and I don't think they are having any serious oiling issues. I believe the only issue they had was a bent valve...and that's almost always the driver's fault

Matt Conrad

[urbanimports02]

I seem to remember you guys were running the nova dry sump on atleast one of those early f1000 cars. Do you have any oil pressure data from those? George is going to test one as soon as time allows, but I would like to know any real world data if I can. I am guessing the motors would have been 06 models, so probably not as high of peak pressure as 07-08.

[LLoshak]

Update on oil pan and race weekend can be found here:

http://dsrforum.yuku.com/topic/6669/master/1/?page=1

I think this proves there is an oiling issue as I now have no dipping.

Any dip in oil psi starves the rods of oil, they are last to get oil. Damage is done slowly and eventually will fail. Shorter life should be expected if:

1) seeing ~1.5 G's under braking
2) at tracks that require scrubbing huge amounts of speed (ex 150 down to 58 at corner 5 at RA).

Next time I will have engine out, I will be redesigning the baffle plate again. To increase capacity of oil under plate and allow for faster oil return under plate with more holes.

I hope this helps everyone and puts an end to unexpected engine failures in motorcyle powered race cars.

[jjstecher]

Question is now who's going to build the new setup and offer it up for sale? Glad to hear everything worked out for ya man. I was meaning to come over and talk to you but never got the shot with my own issues this weekend. Saw you at impound after the race but you were busy with fam so no reason to disturb. Great work figuring all this carp out.

[JakeL]

Lawrence -

Nice work. Eager to see the datalogs that confirm pressure stayed hunky-dory.

Regarding the on-the-top catch can, we did that on the Yamahas to keep them from burping all the oil out the top as well. Worked just fine.

That said, might that indicate that an awful lot of oil is getting slung around, and mayhap, as Jesse says, contributing to lost horsepower?

If you can perhaps refine the baffle a bit and keep more of the oil out of the gearbox, that'd be quite a win.

-Jake

[LLoshak]

Yeah, I'm pretty eager to look at data too. But data from qual sessions showed no dipping until about 1/2 a qt was burped out, once a qt was burped same dips as before, to 35. So with not seeing any oil in cans post race, im pretty confident this is the fix. But I'll let you know once I download data. Im just so relieved I have a running car in one piece back at the shop. Need to spend some QT with the pregnant wife and 2 1/2 year old daughter, they have been more than supportive during my recovery of the swine flu and right into the race weekend. Its like I havent seen them in 10 days.

Theres no way of getting around not overfilling these things except with going with a DS. My new baffle plate idea is just to increase the capacity under the plate. I also believe theres not enough holes to allow it to get down there fast enough. Just ideas, but cant hurt to increase the volume capacity under the plate, might be tough to do.

John, I'm open to sharing my design once my patent goes through! J/K!!! I told Jesse, I'd give him all the details to reproduce and sell or anyone for that matter. Im sure someone is already working on it.

[Wren]

Lawrence,

We think there is some room for improvement in the pan also. The Rilltech/C&M pan has a lot of excess volume outside of the pickup box where oil can return to the pan and never reach the pickup. The pan that Brandon and Steve came up with and put on the FB cars has a similar size box for the pickup, but where the C&M pan has volume, their pan has a ramp area that makes all oil returning to the pan go to the pickup. That may be the low hanging fruit right now.

[LLoshak]

Intersting, thanks Wren.

Sorry for the delay guys, I just downloaded the data and 55-58psi the entire race!!!!

If someone can tell me how to do a screen shot, I'll be happy to post for those who want proof, but I'm not selling anything.

Mod your oil pan and p/u like my pics and your dips will be history! Now we can concentrate on racing!!

[Rennie Clayton]

If someone can tell me how to do a screen shot, I'll be happy to post for those who want proof, but I'm not selling anything.

With the window in question on the screen: Alt + Print Screen, then paste into your favourite image editor. MSPaint works in a pinch.


Cheers,
Rennie