I need some advice

[Ananth K]

Hello Folks,

I am an aspiring open wheel owner/driver for the 2009 season. I want to get into FB but there are some things that are making the decision tough. Your suggestions and advice would help out a lot at this point.

First, people in the know tell me an FB is too much car for a beginner like myself, considering I have no open wheel experience whatsoever. My only racing experience is hillclimbing and rallycross in 70's era specials (similar to DSR) or highly modified sedans. Neither are wheel-to-wheel racing, so I am concerned about a racing incident rendering me insolvent for the rest of the season.

Second, the question is of whether there is scope to develop as a driver in a class which does not see that much participation, atleast in the SE Michigan area where I hope to race. Don't get me wrong, I have not deluded myself into thinking I want to be an F1 driver someday, but some competition is good to have, if only to gauge whether you are making any progress at all with the car or yourself.

Due to financial constraints (I have less than $10k to spend as of this moment), the only option if I were to enter FB is to pick up a very old FF or FC and modify it. Fabrication etc. is not an issue but the question is will I be ultimately competitive with this kind of car against the $60k purpose-built cars, regardless of whether it takes 2 or 3 years to do this?

All of this is as opposed to simply buying an old FF or F500 and racing it as is. The FB draw, to me, is simply the fact that I can enter a class which is still in its infancy and grow along with it. The cheap engines (unlike FF) and real suspension (unlike F500) are other attractions to me.

[rickb99]

Due to financial constraints (I have less than $10k to spend....

... but the question is will I be ultimately competitive with this kind of car against the $60k purpose-built cars, regardless of whether it takes 2 or 3 years to do this?

...All of this is as opposed to simply buying an old FF or F500 and racing it as is.

1.
The short answer is no.. too low a budget. The 'good' chassis you'd need to start a quality FB build with will cost more then $10K. Some people have converted 'older' FC chassis to FB from back in the rocker arm suspension days using ones that are in exceptionally good condition (not under 10K in general). But see item 2 for the budget hit.

2.
The short answer is no unless you're prepared to invest (over time) about $25 to $30 K. You can sell off the FC related items on the back of the car. But you then need a whole LOTTA FB related things to put back on (including frame building).

NOTE:
Yes, in many cases FF frames and suspension are the same as FC's of that year. However if you start with a 'lower cost' FF chassis, then you have another $3,000 investment in front/rear wings to buy along with appropriate body work.

The longer answer is on that budget take a LONG hard look at another growing class, FST. You can pick up a GOOD used FV for as little as $4,000 and put the additional money in to converting to FST. Or, you may even find an FST for around $10K. Fun, fast and growing class and low(er) operating expenses.

Take a look at this thread from the FST section of the Forum on what's going on down at ARRC this weekend.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...291#post191291

With your background and a 'sensable' approach to your first outings, FB is probably not too big a step (but it's a BIG one). However, the budget really isn't there.

You can find FF's and FC's priced within your $10K limit. Just be aware, the maintenance costs on the Kent or Pinto engine (and whole car) will be considerably higher then in FST. If you lose an entire FST engine (KA-BLU_EEE) you'r looking at about $3,600 carb to clutch (proving to be very reliable and long lived though). That's less then the cost of a full rebuild on a Kent or Pinto.

If you lose suspension pieces off an FST, it's a minor deal. Lose a corner on an FB or FC and you're talking $1,500 plus (if you're lucky and save the upright).

In FB you can go with E-bay engines for maybe $1,500 to $2,000 a pop. But with those, you better carry a spare to the track. Or, a fully race prep'd FB engine for $4,000 plus. Even with that, better carry a spare to the track.

[rickb99]

Note:
If you doubt my comment about having a spare engine in the glove compartment, see pictures for FB at ARRC this weekend. Excellent shots of the amount of work in the engine compartments and rear suspension (although mostly purpose built FB's).

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=30166&page=3

Pay particular attention to the hammer'd piston

[kea]

I see you are living in Troy, just up the road from here.
Stop by some day and we can talk about the options.
Keith
Averill Racing Stuff, Inc.
Madison Heights, MI
www.racing-stuff.com

[S Lathrop]

What do you really want from racing?

Given your budget take the advice given earlier and look at FV. I suggest FV over FST because there is a better standard to measure yourself against. Level of driving in FV is some of the best in SCCA. The skill set you develop in FV will carry over to any other class you run. Any resonable current FV with a good engine and good tires, well driven, can win.

[Ananth K]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

I have seen the $25 to $30k number many times in the FB section. Can someone please post a simple breakdown of where one would be spending it? Based on my research, $10k to $15k is possible if one were to buy a complete rolling chassis for about $6k and spent around $3k to $4k on the conversion, and the rest on development over the course of two years or more. I could be very much off the mark here too, but I have the ability to do the conversion and possibly even the wings myself.

FV is out of the question. No offense to anyone, but its a 40 year old class with 40 year old chassis tech. I want a real suspension and a halfway decent engine.

So the choice is either FF or FB. The latter is not easy, but I want to experience the excitement of racing (and possibly winning??) in a car that I largely built and developed myself. That's what I am in this for.

Keith, I will probably visit you sometime during this week. Thanks for the offer.

[S Lathrop]

I miss understood what you wanted from your racing experience. I thought you were interested in developing driving skills and were concerned about your age.

I took up flying at age 60. I have recently gone back and taken lessons in a Piper J3 Cub. The airplane I am flying is nearly a decade older than I am. I have not learned so much about the fundamentals of flying since I first started over 300 hours ago. I don't know that I would have been good enough to begin flying a J3 at my age. I had an experience a month ago when I landed a plane in the dark without any landing lights. If it had not been for my recent J3 training that landing in the dark could have had a much worse outcome, as it was I made a good landing.

This is a long winded story to defend my original suggestion about FV.

A FB is an advanced level race car. It has the performance very nearly that of a FA. Bottom line is that at the speeds you are talking about, bad things can happen real fast for the unprepared.

If you are a good mechanic and fabricator, then you might be able to get a FB running for the budget you are talking about. But a front running, new FB will cost North of $60,000. Many drivers will not have to lay out that kind of money because they will supply a lot of the skills or settle for lower performance.

Developing a high performance car is beyond most experienced drivers.

Now that I have tried to discourage you, if you are up to the challenge, go for it. But be realistic about what you are about to under take.

[Rick Ross]

Since you posted here on a public forum, I assume that you are seeking a variety of opinions. In my opinion you should follow Mr. Lathrop's advice. His aviation analogy is completely valid.

An FB is a very high performance race car, and in my opinion you do not currently have sufficient driving (and racing) experience to drive an FB car anywhere near its limits, which will be necessary for you to properly develop the car. In other words, you would be attempting to develop the skills necessary to race a lightweight, high performance race car while also attempting to test and develop a brand new car. This would be a very difficult task for any driver/builder, regardless of any natural driving abilities that you might possess. Years ago I went from SRF directly to FM, and it was a very big step for me. If I had gone directly to an FB-type car I can guarantee you that I would have spent more time off the track than on, and I would have been a hazard to everyone around me. I can't even imagine what the crash repair bills would have been!

In my opinion you would be best served by first obtaining some good road racing experience if another class such as FV, FST, FF, FM, or even SRF. Then you could re-evaluate your situation and better determine the best class for you. Good luck!

[Evl]

The cheap engines (unlike FF) and real suspension (unlike F500) are other attractions to me.

I'd give F5 another thought. Although the suspension seems simple, and is certainly made from cheap parts, a large degree of ingenuity has gone into actually making those rubber pucks do useful work. Keep in mind that most formula cars have such high spring rates that a good deal of the suspension work is done by the tire's sidewall. For your budget, you'd be able to get a car that will not only run the same lap times as an FF (and be much faster than an FV), but leave you some extra left over for fixing crash damage rather than leaving you sidelined for a season.

[Keith Carter]

Even though the speed and sound of the FB is very enticing, I believe you would be making a mistake with your experience. With your budget and location I would suggest getting your feet wet with a club formula ford and run the EAST/WEST Challenge series. Develop your driving first with racing wheel to wheel and then worry about tinkering with a science project FB. A $10k FB would most likely not be competitive or you would end up surpassing your budget and I wouldn't think you would want either outcomes. FB fields and FST fields especially in your locations are pretty minimal so if you want to gauge yourself to others, go back and look at the recent race results from the surrounding regions you plan to race with(Regionals or Nationals). Look at the car counts there and it will help you with your decision. Good luck with whatever you decide!

[akilcoyne]

I agree completely with Mr. Lathrop. FV is one of the best training classes in SCCA. Maintaining momentum and hustling a FV around at the front of the pack is no easy task.

I also somewhat agree with the lack of whizzy factor in a FV. Club Formula Ford might be a direction you should consider. Acquisition cost is about what you have available for your budget. One set of spec tires lasts the whole season, a more modern-ish suspension to tune on, and a pretty cost effective package to run. Good competition in your area with the East vs West Challenge Series.

[Jnovak]

I also think you should consider FVee, mainly because of your budget constraints. FVee is one of the toughest classes around & some of the best drivers around are Vee drivers. The cars are safe, tough & fast enough to learn the ropes. There is also the very significant advantage of LOTS OF COMPETITION. If you could eventually win in FVee this would be a tremendous accomplishment.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[samiam520]

Another class to consider may be the FST, or Formula First class. FST has just been approved as a nation wide, regional class for 2009. The performance is between a FV and club FF. The cost of purchasing a FST is a little higher then a FV, however, the cost of operation should be a little less. A lot more torque from the 1600cc as compared to the 1200cc engine and FF spec tires which seem to last all season.

[glenn cooper]

I was pretty impressed with the FST cars and drivers @ the ARRC.
They are quite quick, look pretty cool, and had a pretty good group together for the race.
I guess it boils down to the fact that like FB it is a new class, and it needs to grow to really show it's potential.
My personal open wheel experience came w/ a Skip Batrber 3 day school, followed by a couple of Southeast Series races, rented a vintage FF a few times, rented a FM once and at that point found what I was looking for: A fast, extremely reliable package that would go years on an engine.
Coming from 600 Super Sport motorcycle roadracing background, it was of extreme importance that I be able to push a button, have the engine start, snick it into gear, and GET IT ON!
I had seen many of my buddy's just about pulling their hair out from snapping FF crankshafts back in the day, prior to the rule change allowing a billet steel crank, as opposed to the previously required cast cheese stocker.
Now that the FF engines stay together, I'd have to go with a CF, or FF, or if you have a bunch of motorcycle racing background, up to a FM.
Learning to drive in a hard tire, no wings class will allow you to be quite quick once you get the miles under your belt and make the change to a winged and sticky slick tired class (FC / FM / FB).

That's my buck three eighty and I'm stickin' to it!

Regards, GC

[formulasuper]

I agree with Glenn; learn to race a no-wings car & then step up. I started with the F440 (now F500) class back in 88'. Once you can drive a no-downforce car a winged and/or winged & tunneled car is a piece of cake.

[kea]

Pipefather,
I too am a believer in starting out in a non-wing race car. Learn the basics first, then you may have some hope of understanding when an aerodynamic device is having an effect. Now, the choice of that vehicle is up to debate.
Keith

[Misterkris]

My only racing experience is hillclimbing and rallycross in 70's era specials (similar to DSR) or highly modified sedans.

How much experience do you have in these cars? Most of the responses here would apply aptly if you havnt had more then a couple laps or whatever. Im not close to as knowledgeable as others here but it would help to know if you were more specific about your seat time.

I suggest renting an FE or FC. Even better if on a track your familiar with. If you can handle the FC no problem then your probably pretty close to being able to handle and FB. But then Wheel to Wheel racing is a whole nother(?) animal.

Take note ive never driven an FB either..

[rickb99]

I want a real suspension and a halfway decent engine.

The real racing suspension is the one that doesn't come apart during the race.

The decent engine is the one that's pulling strong as you take the checkered flag.

It doesn't matter what kind of open wheel car they are on or in.

Once you're on the track it doesn't matter if you're doing 95 MPH wheel to wheel or doing 145 MPH wheel to wheel. When you pull in the paddock, you'll be smiling.

[rickjohnson356]

Look at the FB threads about continuously blowing 'cheap' motorcycle engines at $1500-2000 per each before you go in to that class.

listen to the others about FV, CF. FST may be too young of a class for a newbie (not many running outside of Cendiv), but it might be a consideraton for you.

[Ananth K]

I'm glad most of you guys echo my original choice of FF/CF or F500. I think I've made my decision for the most part, but the desire to do a FB still remains. This whole situation reminds me of my experience with building championship-winning model aircraft. I couldnt fly the stuff that I built, and it was SO frustrating. I wouldn't want that to happen with a formula car since it is so much more expensive .

I am probably going to FF since CF at my local track (Waterford Hills) doesnt see any participation at all. F500 is an option depending on what car I can find for either class.

[Daryl DeArman]

Some things to consider if you go the FF/CF route: A CF can race as a FF or CF anywhere. Not all FF's can race as a CF. Many Vintage organizations have classes for CF, but not FF.

Most CF's you come across are probably around 30 years old. They have already depreciated as far as they are likely to depreciate. You will be able to race it for years, with proper care and maintenance, and be able to sell it for what you paid for it when you are ready to move up/on. That isn't likely to happen with many other classes. You also don't have to worry about the CF today being any less competitive 10 years from now....never know when the next DB1 is going to enter the FF ranks.

If those were my two choices I'd buy a good CF and enter it as a FF when there aren't any other CF cars entered. Enter it as a CF when there are. If a Vintage event piques your interest, you may able to do that as well. When it becomes time to sell it and buy that FB you will have a larger market as well.

Good luck, whatever route you decide.

--Daryl

[jjstecher]

10k is no where near enough for FB. I easily went through that after getting my car on just motor, wiring, belts, setup stuff, etc. and that's above the cost of the car. A conversion kit on top of that for a car you have to purchase with that same 10k just wont happen.

I echo others comments in looking at FST and CFF as a excellent spot to start out. If I had to do it over again given the car counts here in the midwest I would have just went with FE. As the car (FB) is a blast to drive but without people to race with it gets a little old. Don't get me wrong I can go a lot faster in the car given more seat time but without having folks to race with on a event by event basis you start to yawn a little.