Building your own chassis?

[Suskevichracing]

I'm looking for information on building my own 1000cc formula chassis. This seems to be the last / only class where you can do so and go race it. My current thoughts are to build a spec style car for use at SCCA auto cross events. My current budget just won't allow a $25-30,000 investment. Am I alone in thinking that this can be done? Has anyone been successful?

[dc]

FE is the SCCA spec class, where you aren't allowed to make anything, so I'm assuming you meant the F1000/FB class. I'll move this thread from the FE forum to that forum...

[Tom Valet]

I'm looking for information on building my own 1000cc formula chassis. This seems to be the last / only class where you can do so and go race it.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from building an F-1000, but you can build your own chassis and race it in pretty much any of the SCCA formula car classes such as Formula Ford, F-2000, FV or an Atlantic for that matter. The only exception would be FE.

Some of those will be cheaper than F-1000, some more expensive. I will leave it to others to tell you whether your numbers are realistic or not.

[na94]

If you're only looking at running autocross events, go and buy George Bowland's old car, the one that Reijo drove this year at nationals. I know that the current owner will let it go cheap, however the car needs a bigger set of wings. Apparently a new set of wings is around $20,000. It will *still* be cheaper than building a competitive F1000 to run in B Mod, and you will have lots of opportunity to play with/redesign the chassis.

[Wright D]

Apparently a new set of wings is around $20,000.

Wow, those must be some awesome wings!

Are they that much because they are custom one offs with lots of R and D?

[Daryl DeArman]

Or are they that much because of the number of supplier choices you have ? Or are they that much as an easier to enforce incentive to cleaner racing?

Imagine if Spec Miatas or Spec Racer body parts were that expensive. I bet you'd have a lot more clean(er) racing

[formulasuper]

My guess is Mike (na94) meant $2,000, not $20,000. Right Mike? Heck, you can build an entire homebuilt aircraft airframe for $20,000.

[Rennie Clayton]

My guess is Mike (na94) meant $2,000, not $20,000. Right Mike? Heck, you can build an entire homebuilt aircraft airframe for $20,000.

Those things are 5-element monstrosities, no way they go for only $2k for a whole car set, front and rear... $20k might be a bit steep, but I would not be shocked in any way if the price tag is $10-15k.


Cheers,
Rennie

[Jnovak]

For $30K you can easily build your own car if you can do 90+% of the work. Timing is another matter.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Suskevichracing]

The whole idea here is to have an open wheel car for under 10 if it can be done, if I had 30, I'd go for an older, ready to run. I love the thought of fabricating my own from scratch, and realize that there are components that would have to be purchased. But, after spending way too much on race bikes, spares, maintenance and operating costs, there's no way.

I'm not opposed to starting with an outdated roller if the price was right as that would eliminate a lot of small parts sourcing and costs. Thanks for the info so far!

[Wren]

The whole idea here is to have an open wheel car for under 10 if it can be done, if I had 30, I'd go for an older, ready to run. I love the thought of fabricating my own from scratch, and realize that there are components that would have to be purchased. But, after spending way too much on race bikes, spares, maintenance and operating costs, there's no way.

I'm not opposed to starting with an outdated roller if the price was right as that would eliminate a lot of small parts sourcing and costs. Thanks for the info so far!

I think I have a reasonable grasp on what it would take to put together a chassis, and it is probably cheaper to buy one.

If you really want to go racing for under $10k, think formula vee. I sold a nationally competitive chassis with a zero time engine from a major builder and data system and trailer for $8200. Other cars can be had cheaper.

I think the nice thing about that is that you can compare your times to others to evaluate your driving skills.

If you want to build, vee chassis are very realistic to build as well.

[ghickman]

Take it from someone that just built a car from scratch...no way no how you're going to get in under $30,000.

Just a set of NEW Penske 3 way shocks and springs will set you back $5,000. That's if you want quality bits going into this chassis.

Then if you have to machine all the parts yourself well I guess you'd better either work in a machine shop that has up to date CNC or go out and buy your own lathe and mill.

Sorry but $10k for a competitive FB is a PIPE DREAM.

Go get yourself a used early 90's vintage Van Diemen FC and do a conversion. But even then expect to have $20k in it. It's a great investment however...the conversion cars won't loose value.

I built my own because I could...saving money wasn't a concern.

Gary Hickman

[rickb99]

We had a dream 6 or 7 years ago. Build a home made D/SR (powered by a 1000cc bike engine too) for about $10,000 to $12,000 that we could invest in slowly.

Then I did a spread sheet on materials. When you get done with the stuff you have to buy (unless you own a machine shop) uprights, brake calipers & rotors, CV joints, springs, shocks, steering rack, rod ends & spherical bearings (about $1,500 worth alone), differential, wheels.. etc. you're gonna be well north of $10 thousand. That leaves a MASSIVE amount of material to buy and fab work on the chassis, suspension, engine and cooling/oiling system. Let along the tooling needed to fab properly. At which point you're ready for a complete body and wings (Uhhh... $5000 if lucky). Or you can spend the next 2 years learning how too and making your own body/wings.

What's that mean? Spending $5K to 18K on a good used formula car of any class is one heck of a buy!!

Lots of excellent FV's, FST's, FF's and FC's show up on this Forum in that price range that are 'worthy' race cars. After that (if it doesn't come with trailer, tools, drivers suit, helmet, gloves, HANS device, etc.), budget about $5.5K more before you hit the track.

If you go FV or FST, figure about $500 to $750 a weekend for nearby tracks. If you choose FF or FC, figure about $950 to $1,200 a weekend. figures include ammortized maintenance costs with no major problems.

Buy the 'correct' model FC and you can tackle the (rather costly) conversion to FB in a few years. In the mean time, enjoy the racing!

I think FB is an AMAZING class! Great cars, great racing, great speeds. But very pricey for people on a 'typical home built' budget (we're on such a low budget, I pick up penny's in front of 7/11 to buy used tires). And in my personal opinion, the engine life is still the 'iffy' question in terms of reasonable operating expenses.

P.S.
What happened with the D/SR project? Well, there's a welded up copy of the Radical D/SR frame about 12' behind me leaning up against the wall (we purchased it from a guy who stopped his project). I sold the Wilwood clutch slave I bought on E-bay

Now, we race a used FC! It's old, it's tired, it's easy to work and way inside the $5k to $18K cost I mentioned above for used formula cars. The driver is having a BLAST!

[RobLav]

No way no how are you going to build a reasonably competitive F1000 for $10K.

Agree that FV is the way to go if that is your budget.

You might build one for $20K through used parts everywhere.

Ask Brandon Dixon and Steve Lathrop... I've been the king of cheap in building my new Citation, and I'm already in at over $25K by using used parts where I can and building a lot more than I would have liked to. I still have a few more thousand to go too.

$30K is about as cheap as one can go.

[cparsons]

Gary (ghickman), Sidney and I are the only members I'm aware of who decided to go with a ground up build. Gary's efforts took 13 months (correct me if I'm wrong Gary), don't know his cost. He has his own maching shop, thus saving time and alot of money. He also did some wonderful work making parts for my car at a very competitve price. Thank you again Gary.
I am in the 15th month of my project, and starting body work this weekend although suspension isn't finished yet. I hit another snag but continue to move forward, albeit very slowly. The $$ at this point is $15,000 + or -. I had some parts already, managed to beg some others, some were given to me when friends cleaned their garage. I will recoup some $$ when I sell the stuff that didn't fit/ wouldn't work with my "one off" chassis. I anticipate another $2k -$3k out of pocket before the first real track day. Total $17,000/ $18,000. That $ spent wisely (race car, wise? HA!) will get you into a car you can drive NOW while you think about converting to FB if you still want to go that route.

Having said all that, and bored you to death, if you have lots of time, good skill set, lots of friends to help (I THOUGHT I was richer in this area than I actually was), go for it. This forum is FULL of good people with good advice, knowledge, and more threads on this very subject.

[Tony Moore]

Jerry Freeman did a ground up also. I am sure he can share that no matter how much you can do yourself, 10K just isn't possible. Look forward to seeing you at the3 ARRC Jerry!

Not to discourage anyone, it is a tremendous amount of work. It can and is being done as you can see in this forum. The 13 months Gary and I spent were not 8 hour days and 5 days a week. A set of wheels and tires is a grand by themselves. I doubt the bits and pieces you have to buy (Fire system, Belts, rack, wheels, shocks, etc) alone could be had under 10K.

Time and money are directly porportional. If you have cubic bucks, it can be done in nothing flat. If you have a tight budget and a lot of skills and a few tools, it will take about 2 or 3 THOUSAND hours to do a competitive car from scratch.

If I wanted to race with 10K, I believe a nice CF might be found for that.

Best Regards,

Tony Moore

[RussMcB]

I would agree that the only possible way to do it for under $10K would be to start with something that already has a lot of components (uprights, fuel cell, brakes, shocks, steering rack, wheels, etc.)

Has there been any more movement towards a motorcycle powered 600cc class? That might be a good $10K project, depending on what the used FF market is like. It could be a very fast and fun car, both on the race track and solo courses.

[rocost]

I completed an FB conversion from an 84 Reynard SF for just south of 10 grand. I actually competed with it this year with the sub $10K price. There is just no way you can build a car from scratch for under 20 to 30 K. My first scratch built (first and hopefully last) was a 13B powered super seven I built for autocross. Sure it was supposed to be done under 5K, then under 10K then under 15K, then I stopped counting. It was probably around 25K when it got to its first event, although it was also licensed for the street, so that sucked some of the funds. I eventually ran solo sprints with this car after dumping another 20K into it.

Back to the FB conversion. In its 10K state, it has around the same performance level the seven had for a quarter to a fifth the cost. With 1K or worth of new tires, I would be beyond the seven. The point here is, start with something, anything to keep the purchase of parts to a minimum. You can go buy an '08 Z06 for 80 grand, how much would it cost to buy one in parts so you could build it yourself?

Hard to beat the feeling of running a car you built yourself though. Maybe that is worth the cost?
Ron

[Suskevichracing]

I'm not opposed to building a 600, it would be cool to "scale-down" to the minimum dimensions and lighter weight.

72" wheelbase, 42" track, 10" wheels, no aero wings (not necessary for Solo II) maybe 600# dry?

Current 600cc's are in the 120HP range could be a fast combo.

[racer27]

For $12,995 you could buy a CF Compariable formula car for brand new... The Banshee. I belive one finished 3rd in a reasonably deep field last weekend.

http://www.frcca.com/modules.php?name=Banshee

[rickb99]

Sus,

If you're absolutely determined to do your own 'thing' and willing to think about a 600cc or maybe even 750cc bike engine, here's two possible starting points.


Look at pics.. HUGE project to rebuild. BIG bucks.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30389


Way better in terms of starting point.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30377

The second one would still need LOTS of fab work for a bike conversion but at least the basic parts that go north of $10K that you cannot fab are all there. If you choose not to use the LD200 transaxle, that's a valuable resellable item alone.

You could do Solo or run SCCA FS class with this.

[formulasuper]

I bought a 83' Ralt RT5 S/V unassembled for $6,500 which I ran a few years as orignal, then 3 yrs ago converted to Formula S by installing a Suzuki Hayabusa engine/tranny. After selling off the VW engine, Hewland transaxle & other VW engine spares I was able to complete the conversion for around $10,000 including the original cost of the car.

[CSHAW]

Make sure your expectations are in line with your budget. Run the numbers first and look for every way to pinch penny's. Be willing to abort the project and walk away if you conclude that you find yourself throwing effort after foolishness. Look at building your first car from donor sources such as existing cars. Do the leg work first before writing a single check. Work hard to stroke the "NO" and if persistence prevails, be prepared to ride a horse that does not does not want to be ridden.

Making something from nothing is one of the most rewarding things you can ever do and I would encourage you to try but make sure you employ rationality along the way. Don't buy anything that you are not ready to install at that time because there is a good chance it will sit on the shelf only to be sold for penny's in the classifieds years later.

Start by making a mock up from stuff like PVC, wood, Styrofoam, duct tape, cardboard or what ever else you can dream up in order that you can look at what is in your mind and get a grasp for complexities you will face when building the real deal. When you are happy with the mock-up, take it to the next level by welding together pieces of emt conduit as a means of further validating the basic design. Wrap it up in duct tape and decide where to go from there.

Our great nation seems to be migrating toward a "DON'T MAKE IT, BUY IT" mentality. "Don't do it, you might fail" attitude. And as such the quest for excellence, diminishes from our society. I endorse any effort for an able person to achieve what others say can't be achievable. There are a lot of little cars in the yards, that have small suspension goodies, brakes, knuckles, half shafts, differentials, that can be used in a home built project. I can show you sixteen dozen different ways to make something work from a bunch of nifty junk that was never designed to be made to work in the task you are planning to achieve. All this can be used and a project can be a success, but it will not be a success if you quit.

With the quest you are looking at, you must understand that it is not a competition against other racers, it is a competition against that side you that wants to quit and that that wants to succeed. "Can't do, really never can do anything".

Creative experimentation is what this type of racing is really all about, in my opinion. Otherwise everyone should contact SCCA Enterprise and enquire into their SPEC offering.

Quest for excellence, you can't buy it, you have to make it happen.

C Shaw

[cparsons]

Very well stated C!
Suskevich, I see that you live in Florida. If you live anywhere near Pinellas Park, in Pinellas county, Tampa Bay area, or feel up to a road trip, you are invited to stop by any weekend and see my project and it's history. If interested I can pm address, directions etc. IF, after listening to my tale, you still want to build a car, GO FOR IT. You are welcome to use whatever resources I may have to assist you. Except garage space, I can't get enough of that! (there is plenty of rental space available in the area though)

Jerry Freeman, my sincere apologies. I did not realize you did a ground up build! You are indeed the Godfather of FB!

[Jnovak]

I have built over 20 cars since the early 80s. It can be done with a lot of work & some $$$. I have built F500 rollers for way under $10K. The chassis/roller for our F500 that won the Runoffs was built for less than $10K. The body work is the toughest part & can cost a ton depending on how you do it. You might want to consider an F500 as they are inexpensive & can be as fast as F-Fords, they also can be a lot slower too.

A new Red Devil kit can be purchased for around $10K.

Thanks ... Jay Novak.

[TKemp]

Our great nation seems to be migrating toward a "DON'T MAKE IT, BUY IT" mentality. "Don't do it, you might fail" attitude. And as such the quest for excellence, diminishes from our society. I endorse any effort for an able person to achieve what others say can't be achievable. There are a lot of little cars in the yards, that have small suspension goodies, brakes, knuckles, half shafts, differentials, that can be used in a home built project. I can show you sixteen dozen different ways to make something work from a bunch of nifty junk that was never designed to be made to work in the task you are planning to achieve. All this can be used and a project can be a success, but it will not be a success if you quit.

With the quest you are looking at, you must understand that it is not a competition against other racers, it is a competition against that side you that wants to quit and that that wants to succeed. "Can't do, really never can do anything".

Creative experimentation is what this type of racing is really all about, in my opinion. Otherwise everyone should contact SCCA Enterprise and enquire into their SPEC offering.

Quest for excellence, you can't buy it, you have to make it happen.

C Shaw

This is the same kind of stuff I have to listen to all the time.

More examples:
"don't try, do it", "you can't handle it, hire the Chinese like very one else",

"Take pride in your work or work somewhere else".

"I dare you to succeed",

"Do you expect me to think for you too, solve the problem and move forward",
and this one is my favorite ....

"You can see that I am going to move to that side of the bench to do that, either jump in and do it yourself or have the sense to get out of my way so I can go do it". Then, if I don't move out of the way he will deliberately walk right into me. This is referred to as "COMMON SENSE INDOCTRINATION".

Todd

[Brett Lane]

Can you believe this guy?

[CSHAW]

Forgot one Todd.

The one about biting the hand that feeds you.

[zexel]

If your building for A-mod autocross and don't plan to win nationals, then yes you can build it for under 10K. It is a lot of work, requires a lot of tools/equipment, and many 1000s of hours.

A-mod example for less than 10K: http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/d...rrent=2b_3.jpg

http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/d...rrent=a5_3.jpg

My 600cc triple F500/FIRA style Amod car for sale with trailer $3250:
http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=DSC02789.jpg

[bmidgley]

Hi all-

It can be done. I am building one as I write this. You have to think outside of the "parts bin". Almost EVERTHING needs to be fabricated. The engine, wheels, tires, rod ends, ect, can be purchased on the cheap via E-bay or elseware.

I have a poorly developed, yet drivable car, all fabricated from scratch and have > $2000.00 in it. Lots of fabrication of scrap or raw materials.

Sound far featched? If so, take a look at the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MjU_oqrkbQ. It is a video of my home fabricated gas turbine engine on a go-cart frame. I have $1500.00 total into the entire kart. This project was also featured in the August 08 issue of Popular Mechanics. Ok I know it isn't going to be winning any races, but who would think someone could fabricate a jet engine for $500.00 ($1500.00 includes the frame, sensors, guages, ect)?

I know it sound like (esp woth my first posting here) i'm stroking myself a bit. This isn't the case. I am citing it as an example. I have not a lick of any pro fabricating exp. ( Been in sales for many years.) The only thing I have is a "can do" line of thinking.

If you think you have the ability to learn; skill to do; and are willing to take failure as a means of educating yourself, have at it! Even if the budget gets blown, think about what you have gained as far as knowledge is concerned. Along the same line of thought....college is expensive. Good luck finding a class or major (short of formula SAE) in formula car design / engineering. But I have to believe, being the engineer can only make you a better driver, right?

Not to say I have something competitive, but I have studied what is out there (speads, phoenix, stohr, radical, ect) and it can be done, I believe for >$10k. And it can be done top notch. I'm actually thinking of selling off what I have and starting over because I have learned so much since starting and feel I can develope a better base to build on. (Any opinions on < 04 R1 v's CBR?)

I have to agree with the post regarding building of the composite body. Sanding foam to make a plug gets tiresome, but not expensive. (Too bad they don't allow carbon :>)) I found this to be the most difficult part of the build to date. Perhaps you could base your design on something existing, or figure it out and pass along your knowledge to me!

Good luck!

Regards,

Bryan

[na94]

My guess is Mike (na94) meant $2,000, not $20,000. Right Mike? Heck, you can build an entire homebuilt aircraft airframe for $20,000.

Nope, I meant $20,000 for a set of custom-designed, cfd-engineered, carbon over kevlar *hollow* wings with 3 or 4 elements. At least that's what I have on good authority from somebody who knows and has been there.

Makes me wonder why I bother with race cars, I should just buy another house

[CSHAW]

I have to agree with the post regarding building of the composite body. Sanding foam to make a plug gets tiresome, but not expensive. (Too bad they don't allow carbon :>)) I found this to be the most difficult part of the build to date. Perhaps you could base your design on something existing, or figure it out and pass along your knowledge to me!

Good luck!

Regards,

Bryan

Due to the nature of many of my projects, I have been placed in the situation of making many one-off moldless body parts. These are used in concept studies, custom projects, and first article which then may become a mold plug. Another form of component production, that has always been enjoyable to me is "Shaped Structural Core". This is when you have a very complex shape with nonparallel inner to outer skin relationships.

I have found that Duct Tape is a wonderful thing for taping over a skeleton frame, like your chassis, then "hard shelling" over the tape. Use fiber glass for this and if you are making a mold plug, lay it up heavy for stability. If you are making a one off part, lay it up with at least two layers of 8oz glass.

You can then either glue on foam or use pour foam to build up a core. From there, you get creative with sanding, whittling, power tools or whatever, and make the shape you want. Once you are happy, hard shell it again and finish the outside to you liking. The parts will fit as snug as the top closes on your beer cooler that keeps the liquid gold finely chilled for human consumption.

I will be posting a link to one of my nose cowl projects using this method, as a community interest how-to article on Monday Morning.

Support Americas growth in ingenuity, JUST BUILD IT .

C Shaw

[carnut169]

Maybe you can build it w/i your budget or maybe you can't.

My question is: Are you doing it for the engineering/build part, and the joy that brings, or are you considering it b/c you want to race?

If your doing it to race, forget about it. As others have said, go buy a mid-90's or later FC and convert it. You'll end up w/ a pretty competitive car.

If your doing it for the same reason people build models, go for it. It should be a project that keeps you busy for years. Realize though, that you probably won't win and the car may have very little resale value.


Just keepin it real....

[rickb99]

It is a video of my home fabricated gas turbine engine on a go-cart frame. I have $1500.00 total into the entire kart. This project was also featured in the August 08 issue of Popular Mechanics. Ok I know it isn't going to be winning any races, but who would think someone could fabricate a jet engine for $500.00 ($1500.00 includes the frame, sensors, guages, ect)? Bryan

Nice job Brian! I'm going to look for the Popula Mechanics issue. Really enjoyed the 'midnight run' up and down the street! The 'woosh' sound was cool and reminded me of some of my youthful 'street' runs. But mine were a lot noisier!

[RobLav]

Like C Shaw's method, I used 1/4" foam sewed to the frame rails, then fiberglassed the outside first, let it harden, removed the sewing thread, then fiberglassed the inside.

Long process...

[jerry freeman]

I've avoided this post for a while because it's been talked about alot. I built the first groung up scratch built non professional chassis. I ran three races at the first of the yeaqr and got uncontested wins. BUT, I was 10 to 20 seconds slower than a good FB time. The question is like Sean O. said, are you doing this for the engineering challenge or do you want to win races? I started with a donor car for most of the old out of date bolt on parts that cost the majority of the cost and have been buying newer parts ever since. If you do it like that you can build a car for 10 to 15 K. Scott Woodruf 's(Formula Super) post was the best way to go but it's not legal for FB. If you are trying to be competative then you will spend 20-30 K for that kind of car and you will spend even more on testing and developement. You would be better off to buy a 98 and up chassis and convert it if you want to be competative. I've spent 20K on parts and 2 years of work and still have all winter to get the car to mid pack level. That doesn't count the MANY hours I have left to build a real body, mount the new uprights, wheels, and tires, and mount my new '07 GSXR motor and build the exhaust.

If you only want to solo race it the it can be done in your price range if you find some good deals on used parts because you don't need alot of the stuff you have to have for club racing. Now that does mean you will have to build your own wings because the A mod wings are huge. They're bigger than the wings on a top fuel dragster and the rear wing alone on TF cars are $7300 and $2500 for the front wings depending on the ones you buy.

So, it just depends on what you want to do in life. If you want to race soon buy a used FC car for 10-15 K and go race or spend years and who knows how much money and build your own car from scratch.

I wouldn't discurage anyone from building a car but it's a lot of work and you can be at the track racing a lot faster if you buy an older car and just go race.

It's cheaper to buy an old car with a spares package than build your own car from scratch. And you can get on track faster.

Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. Not much.

Hope to see everyone at the ARRC. Hope my turd makes the 120% rule.

Jerry