Kephart Wheel intrigue?

[Dave Gomberg]

To Art Smith: no black helicopters here - because this was a very small Fastrack, we were able to get the recommended change into the mill on Tuesday after the Runoffs (the deadline was also unusually late - noon Thursday). Of course, after the Court of Appeals made their decision, we discussed the various options (at great length) during the rest of the week.

To Greg: the recommendation is in the November Fastrack (out yesterday). It is simple: delete 9.1.1.D.10.d.

Dave

[Tim FF19]

Item 2. Effective 1/1/09: Delete 9.1.1.D.10.d as follows:

d. Wheel covers, wheel fans, or any device to fair in the wheel is prohibited.


I think this is a good recommendation by the CRB

[Richard Hybels]

It might be a good idea for those that make and/or sell the wheels or those that want to outspend everybody to win a race but I can't see why it would be a good idea for anybody else any more than the aluminum head was.
Richard Hybels

[TimW]

fully legal next Thursday, page 5-6.

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastra...strack-jan.pdf

[BWC54]

fully legal next Thursday, page 5-6.

Good, all you guys run out and buy new aero wheels and sell me your 4 bolt Panasports.

[Wren]

I think the only people buying them are the guys with new cars who can't get wheels from any other source.

BTW- Got my hands on a set and they absolutely fall apart without the outer section.

[dc]

Good, all you guys run out and buy new aero wheels and sell me your 4 bolt Panasports.

Ditto.

[DanW]

Well, I can't afford those, and my bolt circle and backspace are different, but these will fit my Zink. They are good for Bonneville too.

https://www.mooneyesusa.com/Store/pr...296df1eb13ae13

[R. Pare]

fully legal next Thursday, page 5-6.

They were perfectly legal all along. The original rule was passed to get rid of dangerous added-on things like hubcaps (which guys were actually doing back then! ), and could have been easily verified by anyone by just calling up John Grubb, who was head of the formula car stuff on the CRB back when it was passed. To have interpreted this rule in any other manner than the original intentions would actually be an illegal rule change that was never voted on!

[DanW]

... The original rule was passed to get rid of dangerous added-on things like hubcaps (which guys were actually doing back then! ...

Richard,
Sorry about the earlier post. I couldn't help it. The moon discs are held on with just a few threads of 3 self tapping screws. Not good practice.

I could not convince my dad they would look really cool on his Rambler Classic either.

[R. Pare]

Dan:

Nothing to be sorry about!

What this wheel rule exercise has shown is how easy it is to get rules interpretation creep as personnel change over the years when a rule is not written correctly (clearly, with no ambiguity about the intent), coupled with people not bothering to consult the original writers (assuming that they are still alive! ).

In this case, the original intent did not address covers, fans, or fairings that were an actual structural part of the wheel, only add-ons. The thought process in FF at the time was not that ingenuity was to be frowned upon (it was applauded), but that blatently dangerous items such as hub caps were to be verbotten. Just why the ban was not instituted across the board to all other classes is still a mystery to me.

Unfortunately, the whole book is full of these problems, and it would take a massive effort to correct them all.

[DanW]

It was a feeble attempt at humor..

I am old enough to recall (1969/1970) some creative individuals in FC (formula junior) and FF with their aero drag reducing widgets and yes, moon disc wheel covers. Sometimes their cars came in without said wheel covers or widgets because of contact.. More stuff for the corner workers to sweep up.

You are correct. Rules such as the wheel cover/fairing in rule and the exhaust outlet height/length rule that was also rescinded had an engineering or safety basis.

Too often, the original basis for the rule is lost as you say.

In my work life, we track all of our engineering changes in supporting documentation. There is an original user specification in each system, and any changes to any component in the system are documented to provide a basis for the change (Management of Change). At times its a clumsy system, but its better than depending on much "tribal knowledge" that continues to walk out the door to retirement or other job opportunities.

[Rick Kirchner]

When I did manufacturing back in the mid 80's we had a 2-step process for changes. First, there was the ECP - Engineering Change Proposal. In this document you had to establish why a change was necessary and what changes were to be made. it was then routed to all the appropriate departments for analysis of costs and all the consequences, and eventually a senior change management board either approved it or sent it back for more work.

Once the ECP was approved we generated an ECN - Engineering Change Notice - that took into account stuff like when the changes were actually going to take place on the assembly line, re-work of parts in process and already out in the field, etc.

Those two documents, if properly executed, left a very nice paper trail of whys and hows. Occasionally in the process of generating the ECP we actually captured through interviews the original design process better than previous documentation ever did. The drawing was amended with a Rev letter and the change bloc referenced the ECP. Production routings referenced the ECN.

[RyanatJongbloed]

So much for keeping the cost down in racing. If anybody needs FB wheels give me a call. I will work with you in building a wheel. And once we do it I will give deals to any FB car.

Thanks
Ryan Dettling
Jongbloed Racing Wheels
408 776 1380
ryan@jongbloedracing.com

[John LaRue]

I would guess that cost was not one of the design parameters.

John

[dc]

So much for keeping the cost down in racing.

Forgive me for saying out loud what others are thinking, but since when have Jongbloed wheels ever been "cost effective?" Don't get me wrong, I think Jongbloed wheels are one of the more beautiful FF wheel options, but they aren't exactly cheap wheels.

These wheels look cool, and I'm sure are strong and light, but I don't think they will make most of us mere mortals any faster.

[John Robinson II]

Who said that Kephart's wheels are overly expensive? Has anyone saying that actually purchased them? I have. THey are competitively priced for what they are. No they are not as inexpensive as panasports, but they are a 4 piece modular wheel.

john

[RyanatJongbloed]

Hey Doug,

When was the last time you called me on a quote for wheels?

John,
What I am staying, is now everyone will spend time and money to adapt something to their current wheels or spend money for new ones. Since you bought a set what did they cost?

Thanks
Ryan

[dc]

Hey Doug,

When was the last time you called me on a quote for wheels?

I don't need to get an official quote to know that Jongbloeds aren't exactly cost effective or inexpensive wheels. Wanna sell me a set or two as cheap as a set of new Panasports?

[RyanatJongbloed]

Doug, What do a set of Panasports weigh?

[RyanatJongbloed]

Doug,

Send me an e-mail. ryan@jongbloedracing.com

Thanks
Ryan

[reidhazelton]

'Cause I am curious about the questions asked with no answers....my one piece Panasports weight about 7.5 lbs a piece, give or take .5 lbs, according to my scale.

Like I said, just fanning the flames, but would still like to know the details. Would have to change to a lightened rotor, alum diff, lightened ring gear, and on and on before I spring for the latest and greatest in wheels for my now 18 year old beauty.

Reid

[Larry]

You mis-use the term "cost-effective." Why not just say "cheap?" There is a lot of difference among the various wheels. Technomagnesio's were expensive, but very light and RIGID. Since they were a true magnesium wheel, they were almost impossible to repair if you damaged one. Panasport and Revolution are inexpensive, and as far as I've been able to determine, they have some flex than Techno's didn't have. Techno's cost 2x as much as Panasport (when they were available).

I know Jongbloed to be a good wheel, although more costly than the others. Hopefully it offers some advantages over the other wheels, too. I certainly wouldn't claim they weren't "cost-effective" just because they weren't cheap.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[reidhazelton]

I don't think anyone is arguing they are ridiculously overpriced, inferior quality, or anything of the sort. We know these wheels to be good quality, at a price one would expect. It is just that now it is one more piece that the top guys will all have to spend (I would guess about $2k) to go one or two tenths quicker (maybe), but they all have the same speed increase, so no real advantage among them, and the circle starts again.

Who wants to sell me their Panasports?!!

[dc]

Who wants to sell me their Panasports?!!

Yeah, exactly... the more expensive wheels that get purchased, the better the pickins for the old gold.

[Ray Dona]

WATCH OUT for JONGBLOED! They owe us a credit for 4 hats that goes back to the summer of 07. They never seem to answer the phone directly and let incoming calls go to their answering service.. If you call about a credit, they never respond. If you call about a new order, you do get an immediate call back... Smoooooth... RayDonaRexxon@aol.com for comments. Sorry to steal this thread. I know Doug does not like "negative" comments like this on this site. Have a great "09" racing season. Ray Dona
P.S. I too understand from some experts that spun Al wheels are more prone to flexing under hard cornering G loads resulting in less tire patch on the tarmac - but they are just fine for "rains".

[dc]

We don't mind negative or conflict posts, Ray, but this is a thread about the Kephart "disc" wheels and something like feedback for Jongbloed should be taken up in the "Buyer/Seller Feedback Forum."

[RyanatJongbloed]

Ray....What are you taking about?????

I gave you that credit back.


e-mail me

ryan@jongbloedracing.com

[reidhazelton]

cost??? weight???

[mblanc]

The banana car gets caught in a recent spy photo testing in a new location, with its new stripes and yet another new aero wheel.

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...&currentPic=22

[M.Sauce]

The front area concept is amazing.

[formulasuper]

The front area concept is amazing.

It must have been rules mandated based on the radiator size & shape. I don't know, I'm just guessing, but why else would they have attempted to make the car aerodynamic with that front "nose"?

[T492]

Possible Ram Air scoop with cover??

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...&currentPic=22

[Daryl DeArman]

Exactly...just like this:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...&currentPic=77

[M.Sauce]

Just wait till you see all the FF's at the Runoffs with the same nifty wheel covers.

[Mark H]

Shoot Yall don't know about "rims".
Here in the ATL you ain't in the game if you don't spend 5K on a set! Spin-a-s
Even if they are bolted on a '82 Impala...that smokes....and is primered?
So 2k for real speed not mention Good Looks, yall ain't even in the game?

Speaking of the game. Wheel that is...Remember!

Don't hate the player....Hate the game!

Now go pawn that HANS and anny up on them rims.....tires extra.

[TimW]

Um, don't all the F1 teams use spinners? You see them reinstall them during pit stops. I think the goal is to keep the wheel face relatively static while the wheel rotates to improve aerodynamics around the wheel.

Just because those boys down near you Mark in the south talk slow, don't assume they're not smart...

[jgaither]

I've been watching this one with some amusement and amazement.

I wanted to be number 200, but now am afraid I'll be working for real money (my job) when somebody else beats me to it.

200 posts about wheels on the FF. Truly amazing.

Go for it, guys!

JG

[dc]

199...

[dc]

200... there, took all of the suspense out of it.


Now, can someone shine a light on the price of these wheels? And are there any photos on other cars yet?