88SF Reynard & Large Driver

[azjc]

From another thread:

Sorry to say, getting the shoulder harness attachment points in the correct location may require welding in a new cross tube. I cut out the cross bar that crossed at the bottom of the dash to enable more bend in my legs, repoured the seat so I could sit lower, enabling me to get away with lower harness pick-up points.

Maybe if Jeff is following this, he can post a picture of our ding.

Yes, our dash has that cross bar cut out and "tabs" added to mount the dash with small screws that would snap pretty easy if knees hit it.

Having a very high regard for his knees and wanting to use them for many more years, Jeff won't even drive the car that still has the cross bar in place.

I've managed to get both my 6'3" 200# frame (50+ lean build other then a bit arountd the waist) along with that of my 6'4" 200# son (20yr basketball player) fitted to the car. What I've done:

Move peddles to a rear mount on the peddle box (may not be factory holes), shortened the brake rods from 3.3" to 2.8" and removed existing spacers. Clutch & throttle cables are at max length. Pretty much maxed out here. I can rest by heals on the rear edge of the peddle box, my son can't (too many basketball injuries to his ankles!)

Removed seat, fit "fighter pilot" pad on belly pan, fuel cell cover along with a bit of backpackers foam to adjust fit and support upper back.and rear firewall. Not bad, tight fit on the width... head is about half way in the roll bar hoop.

Have just over 2" from helmet to roll bar, clear streight edge resting on front hoop and roll bar.

Have 3~4 fingers between knee's and cross brace under dash. Plan on leaving for the time being but remove later. Steer shaft rest on top of it, move it above an gain a few inches... unless others have a better idea. Legs are low enough that shifter clearance is not a problem.

Shoulders are even to or just above the cross brace inside the roll bar, can just fit a 1" foam headrest on the existing headrest mount (cut even forward of the brace).

So... mounting shoulder belts to the cross brace inside the roll hoop is an option, after mounting tabs and reinforcing.

But... I don't want to reinvent the "wheel", if others have solutions I'd like to hear about them. My goal at this time is to make the car so I fit, it's safe and relable with min modifications. Then I can drive, tinker, modify as needed. I am a proficiant welder (TIG / MIG mostly) and fair fabricator, I also have access to both at work (I'm in heavy equipment parts).

[rickb99]

Move peddles to a rear mount on the peddle box (may not be factory holes), shortened the brake rods from 3.3" to 2.8" and removed existing spacers. Clutch & throttle cables are at max length.

1.
Have you tested the clutch pedal to be sure it still disengages the clutch?
2.
Do you have enough space between the top of the brake pedal and the front casting to allow for brake wear before it hits the casting? Shortening the push rods probably took care of that though.

When I tried using those 'max' pedal top distance holes at the back of the box, the tops of the pedals were way too close to the casting. Clutch wouldn't disengage (unless I modified the 'leverage' gained in the pivot point further back by the clutch master.

NOTE:
You pedal box may be different then ours.

3.
If you think you don't have enough length in the throttle cable, measure it and Averill can make up a slightly longer one. Check to be SURE full throttle on is opening the secondary all the way.

Not bad, tight fit on the width...

Do you still have the cockpit interior side panels on? We don't but that will be fixed over the winter. NOTICE that those side panels slope in slightly toward the bottom to mate with an L-shaped mounting surface. You could redo those panels to sit vertical (no inward slope), move the mount and get more width in the bottom.

Flat vertical panels out of Kevlar would be a nice addition.

Steer shaft rest on top of it....,

Yes, it does. Once again, maybe Jeff can take a picture.

In our modified one, that same block is simply moved forward a few inches and 2 tabs are welded to the forward braces to hold that block. Designed to keep the steering wheel at the same angle it is now.

Shoulders are even to or just above the cross brace inside the roll bar, can just fit a 1" foam headrest on the existing headrest mount (cut even forward of the brace).

Our headrest mounting post sticks straight up on that cross brace. Will relocate this winter to the rear of the cross brace and might even move it back slightly more with with a horizontal stand off from the cross brace.

OTHER THINGS:
1.
Where's your fire bottle pull handle? Ours is directly along the left thigh. Bad location, it rubs his leg under G loading. Need to relocate that.
2.
Add as much pad as possible along the inner edges of the front hoop where your legs pass through. You'll find yourself using those as 'support' under cornering.
3.
In addition to the pedal box, our car has a 'heel plate' riveted to the belly pan about 2.5" back from the edge of the pedal box. That might help your son and give a better purch then the tiny lip on the box.

[Revs2-12k]

I've done similar things to my 87, more seat time in the car helps alot.

[azjc]

1.
Have you tested the clutch pedal to be sure it still disengages the clutch?

Yes, even using the lowest (best leverage) hole on the peddle. May have a small dia clutch, less travel.

2.
Do you have enough space between the top of the brake pedal and the front casting to allow for brake wear before it hits the casting? Shortening the push rods probably took care of that though.

Yes, should be enough to allow for one M/Cyl failure.

When I tried using those 'max' pedal top distance holes at the back of the box, the tops of the pedals were way too close to the casting. Clutch wouldn't disengage (unless I modified the 'leverage' gained in the pivot point further back by the clutch master.

NOTE:
You pedal box may be different then ours.

Close but OK. Using the middle holes on the peddle box my travel was limited by interferance with the throttle peddle and the sway bar.

3.
If you think you don't have enough length in the throttle cable, measure it and Averill can make up a slightly longer one. Check to be SURE full throttle on is opening the secondary all the way.

Do have full throttle opening, including the secondary. Carb appears to be a fully preped unit. Could use a bit longer cable just to be safe, will most likly have Keith supply both the trottle & clutch cables.

Do you still have the cockpit interior side panels on? We don't but that will be fixed over the winter. NOTICE that those side panels slope in slightly toward the bottom to mate with an L-shaped mounting surface. You could redo those panels to sit vertical (no inward slope), move the mount and get more width in the bottom.

Flat vertical panels out of Kevlar would be a nice addition.

Not seen any interior side panels... so far most of my exposure to the Renard FC is in pictures I've pulled up on the web. Sounds interesting - anyone have a picture?

Yes, it does. Once again, maybe Jeff can take a picture.

In our modified one, that same block is simply moved forward a few inches and 2 tabs are welded to the forward braces to hold that block. Designed to keep the steering wheel at the same angle it is now.

That was the other option I had in mind...

Our headrest mounting post sticks straight up on that cross brace. Will relocate this winter to the rear of the cross brace and might even move it back slightly more with with a horizontal stand off from the cross brace.

Mine is the same, just that the tube the headrest mounts to stuck out 3/8" or so, removing it gave me just that much more room! It appears I'm a bit like you - do what is neded now, drive the car for a bit and get a feel for what needs to be done and how to do it.

OTHER THINGS:
1.
Where's your fire bottle pull handle? Ours is directly along the left thigh. Bad location, it rubs his leg under G loading. Need to relocate that.

Pretty much the same... in time I'll move it - to the dash maybe?

2.
Add as much pad as possible along the inner edges of the front hoop where your legs pass through. You'll find yourself using those as 'support' under cornering.

Yes, have a SFI rollbar pad to go there.

3.
In addition to the pedal box, our car has a 'heel plate' riveted to the belly pan about 2.5" back from the edge of the pedal box. That might help your son and give a better purch then the tiny lip on the box.

Good idea, how tall is it?

Seems we are on a similar path and you're a year ahead of me! Could be a good thing for me..

[jabro1000]

Heelrest:

[Purple Frog]

I have found in all my cars that a small piece of angle running across the floor to rest my heels on helps significantly with foot control, either in high G's, spins, or even pushing myself out of the car. Experiment with the placement of that heel piece. You will find you probably don't need to bend your ankle backwards as much, with proper fit.

OBTW, if you can weld. You can always fab custom pedals. My throttle pedal has all kinds of contortions above the pivot so the brake bias cable can run through it.

A stop on the clutch pedal is important so that you do not over-extend the slave cylinder.

A stop on the throttle is important. Just make sure that in no way can the pedal get caught on the stop.

Master cylinder rods must have locking nuts.

Many headrests are too far forward for us full-figured men. It's usually easier on your vision if your head is not in contact with the head rest most of the time.

[azjc]

Heelrest:

Peddle box looks just like mine, rear peddle pivot holes look like mine also. Clutch & throttle peddles are like mine, brake is not. My brake has a wider contact area that is adjustable for distance (Better for toe & heal?), welded steel not mach alum.

Clutch - is that a cable or a rod? Can't tell in the picture.

[jabro1000]

Clutch is a rod which actuates a bellcrank assembly tied to the clutch master; I would assume that setup is fairly universal on these cars. I'm curious to hear how your heel and toe endeavours go with a different pedal setup, as it felt awkward to me the very few times I did experiment with it.

[azjc]

OBTW, if you can weld. You can always fab custom pedals. My throttle pedal has all kinds of contortions above the pivot so the brake bias cable can run through it.

A stop on the clutch pedal is important so that you do not over-extend the slave cylinder.

A stop on the throttle is important. Just make sure that in no way can the pedal get caught on the stop.

Master cylinder rods must have locking nuts.

Many headrests are too far forward for us full-figured men. It's usually easier on your vision if your head is not in contact with the head rest most of the time.

Peddles seem to be OK, but time in the seat will be the final judge. Narrow racing shoes are a must, not sure how long it will take me to get use to no left foot rest (no room!).

Yes, has a clutch & brake stop, lock nuts on the M/Cyl rods. Spent a fair amount of time making sure all peddles had full travel, but not any over travel.

If all goes as laid out I should have a small amount of clearance from the headrest, good point on not being in contact all the time.

As I see it right now two chassis mod's will need to be done (beside the hamer to the tube by the fuel pump): brace under dash & headrest / shoulder harness mount. But I want to get a feel for what I need with some seat time before I start with any major mod's.

[azjc]

Clutch is a rod which actuates a bellcrank assembly tied to the clutch master; I would assume that setup is fairly universal on these cars. I'm curious to hear how your heel and toe endeavours go with a different pedal setup, as it felt awkward to me the very few times I did experiment with it.

Mine is a cable... thought it was the norm!

1st pic is normal at rest, I have a spring pulling the peddle forward so it doesn't flop backwards, another spring pulling the bellcrank backwards so the T.O. bearing isn't always loaded. 2nd pic is with me pulling backwards on the peddle to take the tension off the cable. A rod seems to make much more sense.

Toe & heal is pretty much second nature to me, BMW used Porsche Syncro's 'till the early 70's and on all racing close ratio 5 speeds. If you didn't double clutch on a downshift you'd kill the syncro's. Then the 1st years with Borg Warner syncro's liked to kill 2nd if you didn't double clutch. Of course Hewlands w/ dog rings is a whole different story and I'll just have to see what works best. And I forgot about my MG 1100 sedan with a non syncro 1st - double clutch was a must if you weren't completely stopped and waited a few seconds.

[Purple Frog]

I left foot brake, so i don't miss a foot rest anymore. The heel rest acts sort as your foot rest.

[azjc]

I left foot brake, so i don't miss a foot rest anymore. The heel rest acts sort as your foot rest.

Clutch or no clutch when shifting?

[rickb99]

It's always wise to read this before your first outing. It will save those dog rings and make your shifts smoother. Of particular note is his ref. to clutchless upshifting. A technique worthy of learning.

http://www.hewland.com/svga/help.htm

Oh, by the way, does your car have a rev limiter AZJC??? Jeff has missed a few up shifts and I'm sure it has saved the engine a few times. Ours is set at 7,200. It's a VERY worth while investment!

[Purple Frog]

I don't use the clutch on the track (unless the pace car slows down too much), only in the paddock, grid, and pit lane. Basically only when going slow in 1st gear.

[azjc]

I don't use the clutch on the track (unless the pace car slows down too much), only in the paddock, grid, and pit lane. Basically only when going slow in 1st gear.

Pretty much what I'd expect - but hear of quite a few Hewland users that say the use the clutch for both up & down shifts. Some that use it for down only, some not at all (other then like you do). Kind of strange because I've always been told no clutch other then down shifts (optional).

Even had to shift a car with syncro's a few times without a clutch... WAY different then a trans with dog rings.

Yes have read the Hewland inst, pretty much what I'd been taught years ago (I actually sold Hewland parts back in the late '70's - had to learn a bit about them). Seen a lot of dog rings & gears abused to the point of needing replacement - correct shifting would have solved the problem.

I've always had a REAL hard time left foot braking

[rickb99]

Kind of strange because I've always been told no clutch other then down shifts (optional).

It is a bewildering thing when first pondered compared to a street transmission. Once you get the feel, it really works best. It doesn't take long to adapt. But.......

DO YOU HAVE A REV LIMITER? Most probable 'damaging' miss shift is on the up shift.

Also, there are only 2 dog rings in the box. Carry spares and also take along any spare gears you have. You can always find one that 'sorta' fits what you need to finish a weekend.

I've always had a REAL hard time left foot braking

If you have a car with any automatic, practice left foot braking in your every day car. It's all a matter of touch/muscle training. If it's a manual, left foot it for slow downs not involving shifting.

[Revs2-12k]

Who would have thought an old guy like PurpleFrog left foot brakes? I thought only the young European karting types knew how to do that!

[Purple Frog]

I became a convert after seeing data traces from the real fast guys around 2002. There are turns on some tracks that can not be executed at the max unless you left foot brake.

My crewchief for the 2004 season, cab driver extrodineer, GT1Vette, kept insisting (insisting, being a PC term).

Got to admit it took some training to gain the "touch". Now anytime I drive an automatic car, I always left foot brake. You have to train those synapes to be able to modulate the pressure.

Around 2002, DaveW said he still right foot broke, and always used the clutch downshifting. But.... I think he has the ability to left foot brake for only those turns where it is needed, and then return to his regularily scheduled program by the next turn.

The only time it gets hilarious in my foot well is during a spin.

[rickb99]

IThe only time it gets hilarious in my foot well is during a spin.

Are you saying you haven't mastered the left foot brake, right foot clutch technique?

[azjc]

It is a bewildering thing when first pondered compared to a street transmission. Once you get the feel, it really works best. It doesn't take long to adapt. But.......

DO YOU HAVE A REV LIMITER? Most probable 'damaging' miss shift is on the up shift.

Also, there are only 2 dog rings in the box. Carry spares and also take along any spare gears you have. You can always find one that 'sorta' fits what you need to finish a weekend.


If you have a car with any automatic, practice left foot braking in your every day car. It's all a matter of touch/muscle training. If it's a manual, left foot it for slow downs not involving shifting.

I'm a real klutz when it comes to left "foot" braking... shoot guns left handed, archery right handed. Can drive a right hand car with no problems. Am left eye dominate, not left hand cordinate... but have always done a bit of wrenching left handed.

Extra dog rings.. not in the spares I got, but will be.

Has a MSD Soft Touch with a 6800 limiter, Pertronics pick up. Am tempted (especially after reading a few post on the fuel pump thread) to change back to points, use a rev limiting rotor. As I recall between BMW & Porsche they are available in 6500, 6800 , 7100 & 7300 RPM. Also the 911S 1967 or 1969 points keep any bouncing down to a min (rev'd to 7300). Add a Bosh Blue coil and you have a simple reliable system that is easy to diagnose & will run on low voltage.

[Revs2-12k]

Interesting, I've known it exists but never been able to find one.


Where can I get the Bosch 7100rpm Rev-limiting Rotor? Got a part number?

[azjc]

Interesting, I've known it exists but never been able to find one.


Where can I get the Bosch 7100rpm Rev-limiting Rotor? Got a part number?

As far as I can tell the rotor is the same (BMW & Porsche are, VW & tons of others) size:

911-602-925-00

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/...ELignt_pg2.htm

or an interesting site I just found:

http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/vie...01200858074936

[kea]

The problem with the rev. limiting rotors are, they were not designed to spend most of their time at the upper rpm range. Thus, the spring that makes them work, starts to fail and the rev limit then gets lower.
With these motors and their fairly heavy flywheels, a badly missed shift will still over-rev, reguardless of a rev limiter. A miss-placed down-shift will do the same. So where is the logic in using a rev-limiter, particularly when there are numerous stories about them and their troublesome experiences.
Keith

[azjc]

The problem with the rev. limiting rotors are, they were not designed to spend most of their time at the upper rpm range. Thus, the spring that makes them work, starts to fail and the rev limit then gets lower.
With these motors and their fairly heavy flywheels, a badly missed shift will still over-rev, reguardless of a rev limiter. A miss-placed down-shift will do the same. So where is the logic in using a rev-limiter, particularly when there are numerous stories about them and their troublesome experiences.
Keith

Are you including all rev limiters, or just mechanical? Dont bother with them or don't count on them? I do see your point about the flywheel mass...

[rickb99]

With these motors and their fairly heavy flywheels, a badly missed shift will still over-rev, regardless of a rev limiter.Keith

Keith,
Shucks, I didn't realize that. Our MSD rev limiter has the 7,200 chip in it. I suspect Jeff is too busy at that point to notice how high the tach goes on a missed up shift.

Hey, is this another good reason for going to an 8 Lb flywheel ?

[kea]

I haven't looked into the 8lb flywheel issue, but I have seen many race cars, cause headaches to their owner because of some device (both mech and elec) added to the vehicle that was supposed to help.
Keeping it simple really can work to your advantage.
Keith

[Bob Coury]

If anybody needs one, I have a Bosch new # 04029, old # 1234332206 on box, 12343322067300 on rotor. Brand spanking new, kicks in at 7300 RPM.

18 bucks plus shipping.

bpcoury@yahoo.com

[azjc]

The problem with the rev. limiting rotors are, they were not designed to spend most of their time at the upper rpm range. Thus, the spring that makes them work, starts to fail and the rev limit then gets lower.
Keith

Having used a lot of Bosh Rev Limit Rotors, I can't think of ever having a failure. Most were normal street cars, but also fitted a number of track cars with higher limit rotors. But we also changed them on a regular basis (24K mi. was BMW's replace spec.). Also don't recall any that started working at lower RPM's.

But, looking back on it I never used one (or any other limiting device) on any BMW race engine I ever built or maintained. Also don't think there was ever any reason for one and I can think of a few reasons to not use one. In addition to Keith's reasons it also gives you the ability to go above the limit, just in case (that I have done before!).