Fuel Pump

[azjc]

Mechanical or electric fuel pump... what do most of you run? Looks like my 88 Reynard will not accept a standard mechanical pump (no phenolic block), should take the "modified" pump. Currently has poorly installed electric, need to "clean it up". I've never had a mechanical pump fail, have had more then one electric fail over the years.

Sugestions and reason why?

[Brian]

I run a Pierburg electric pump, which is a low pressure in-line pump, 6 or 12 volt, that is designed for use with Weber carbs. I prefer it for a number of reasons - it's extremely easy to mount - in-line hose connections and tie-wrap it to something handy. It's very light, and the wiring includes a ground line so that you don't worry about getting a good chassis ground from the body of the pump. It primes the carb float bowl so that I don't have to turn over the engine to get fuel in the carb. It is a rotary type pump, so there is a constant flow of fuel and pressure rather than pulses as with a mechanical or electric pulse type pump, and I think Weber's like the constant flow. And I've never had one fail.

http://www.zimsautotechnik.com/acata...Fuel_Pump.html is the pump I use, and that's where I get them.

Brian

[Craig Henry]

Early and pre '72 engines came without the insulator and used the 1.75" long fuel push rod. Late '72's (and on) came with the insulator and the fuel push rod length increased to 1.95". Most auto parts stores can order the shorter pre '72 pushrod for you if you think the mechanical pump will fit without the insulator. Tell them it's for a '71 pinto 2.0.

Craig

[kea]

Around here for the 88-90 FC Reynards, we run the mechanical pump, mounted without the insulator,add a little sealant between the two. And, we cut/shorten the push-rod....no big deal.
Keith
Averill Racing Stuff, Inc.

[azjc]

Early and pre '72 engines came without the insulator and used the 1.75" long fuel push rod. Late '72's (and on) came with the insulator and the fuel push rod length increased to 1.95". Most auto parts stores can order the shorter pre '72 pushrod for you if you think the mechanical pump will fit without the insulator. Tell them it's for a '71 pinto 2.0.

Craig

I have the 1.75" push rod, the pump I have (came with the car) wont quite clear the frame - sticks out too far even without the insulator. I found an earier post warning about the push rod length

Around here for the 88-90 FC Reynards, we run the mechanical pump, mounted without the insulator,add a little sealant between the two. And, we cut/shorten the push-rod....no big deal.
Keith
Averill Racing Stuff, Inc.

That's what I had in mind, but the pump I have wont fit - too long. Any particular pump you use?

[rickb99]

That's what I had in mind, but the pump I have wont fit - too long. Any particular pump you use?

AZ,

We have the mechanical pump (standard per the Pinto design I think) without the spacer. I'm guessing you have the angled brace that runs across part of the face of the pump? Isn't that a sweet setup There's NO WAY to get the engine in/out with the fuel pump mounted.

The "good news" on ours is, the bottom mounting nut is 'frozen to the stud and when removing, the stud comes out of the block. You remove the TOP nut (stud stays in block with that one), you can then massage, twist and angle the pump just enough to get it in and out.

If you're two studs are solid in the block, there's NO WAY to get the fuel pump in and out without taking the entire transaxle/engine loose from the chassis and getting it angled/tilted in the chassis so you can slide the pump on the studs. No mean feat with 1/16" clearance on the header side. You could install it once and FREEZE the nuts to the studs. Then remove and find some bolts that are the right length. It would make install/remove easier but more wear on the block threads

The mechanical pumps are certainly reliable (as Keith says) and we'll probably stay with it. But I have pondered changing to the low pressure electric. Only trouble is, finding a dang place to mount it with that tight fit of the engine to the front bulkhead.

P.S.:
Fuel pump gaskets. Might have to shop the specialty sources if you want to use that, like BAT, Pegasus, an engine builder or make your own. Last fall, I purchased the last 2 in the nationwide NAPA inventory.

[kea]

My engines use 2 bolts to hold the fuel pump in place and not a stud w/nut.
The fuel pump I use, is 3.925" from the base to the top of the housing.
I do install the engines with the fuel pump in place, but it can be a fight. Probably better to do it after.
Keith

[azjc]

My engines use 2 bolts to hold the fuel pump in place and not a stud w/nut.
The fuel pump I use, is 3.925" from the base to the top of the housing.
I do install the engines with the fuel pump in place, but it can be a fight. Probably better to do it after.
Keith

Mine uses bolts, had sealant instead of a gasket.

Pump I'm trying to fit is 3.84" deep from the mounting flange to the top of the pump.

Only have 3.05" worth of room. So, I'd need a pump no longer the 3.0"...

Anyone know how long the adjustable pump from Pegasus is?

See pictures (the "blue thing" is a brake line & yes it will be secured!):

[Purple Frog]

Shhhhh... don't tell anybody....

Many, many Reynards show obvious signs that the frame tube in question has been rather crudely modified by what appears a 10 lb. sledge hammer used with a less than delicate touch. (.05"... no sweat.) Remember these were English cars, built to high English standards while being outsourced to a French manufacturing firm. These special little cars are not Hondas.

Let's just say, I don't have to remove my fuel pump to R&R the engine.

If I have to keep letting all these little secrets out, pretty soon it would just be easier to send you one of the secret Adrain Reynard Society decoder rings.

[azjc]

Shhhhh... don't tell anybody....

..snip... so others don't catch on

If I have to keep letting all these little secrets out, pretty soon it would just be easier to send you one of the secret Adrain Reynard Society decoder rings.

... someone already put a pretty big ding in the tube, funny how it's just in the right spot. Only problem is that it needs to be dinged about an inch!

Now I'm afraid to hear your suggestion about re-locating the shoulder harness mount to a location where it wont compress my spine to that of a "little person" (I think that is PC). That will have to wait 'till the fuel pump issue is settled.

[rickb99]

Time out!

I see something different here. But 1st, yup we got a 'ding' but our ding is indeed bigger then your ding.

Now to what I was gonna say. If you're saying you need a bigger ding cause of the in/out on the pump itself, there's another option.

Our pump has the in/out at 45 degree angles when the bolts/studs are engaged. NOT straight up and down.

If the ding needs to be bigger cause of the pump housing, ding it. Ours is a lot bigger.

[Purple Frog]

Sorry to say, getting the shoulder harness attachment points in the correct location may require welding in a new cross tube. I cut out the cross bar that crossed at the bottom of the dash to enable more bend in my legs, repoured the seat so I could sit lower, enabling me to get away with lower harness pick-up points.

The fuel pump on one of my Reynard motors is the same one azjc is trying to fit. Inlets and outlets at 6:00 and 12:00. 10 lb. hammer, not 5 lb. hammer.

[rickb99]

Maybe if Jeff is following this, he can post a picture of our ding.

Yes, our dash has that cross bar cut out and "tabs" added to mount the dash with small screws that would snap pretty easy if knees hit it.

Having a very high regard for his knees and wanting to use them for many more years, Jeff won't even drive the car that still has the cross bar in place.

[azjc]

Sorry to say, getting the shoulder harness attachment points in the correct location may require welding in a new cross tube. I cut out the cross bar that crossed at the bottom of the dash to enable more bend in my legs, repoured the seat so I could sit lower, enabling me to get away with lower harness pick-up points.

The fuel pump on one of my Reynard motors is the same one azjc is trying to fit. Inlets and outlets at 6:00 and 12:00. 10 lb. hammer, not 5 lb. hammer.

Sounds like there is hope for a mech. fuel pump... I'm now looking at a different pump.

Maybe if Jeff is following this, he can post a picture of our ding.

Yes, our dash has that cross bar cut out and "tabs" added to mount the dash with small screws that would snap pretty easy if knees hit it.

Having a very high regard for his knees and wanting to use them for many more years, Jeff won't even drive the car that still has the cross bar in place.

I'll move the belt question to a new thread...

[formulasuper]

Are electrical fuel pumps allowed in SCCA FC & CFC?

[Steve Demeter]

Fuel pumps are free per the GCR

[azjc]

Are electrical fuel pumps allowed in SCCA FC & CFC?

Yes they are, but I like the simplicity of a mechanical pump - failures and problems are rare. But it might not be a simple solution!

One of the reasons I picked a Reynard FC is it's "Old School" - a Pinto engine) with a carb, mech fuel pump, can even run old fashion points & cond and mechanical guages. Chassis is also still pretty simple, an evolution of earlier FF's.

[formulasuper]

Fuel pumps are free per the GCR

Thanks. I see in section B.1.c.25 where "Pump, fan, & generator drive pulleys are unrestricted." However, I see nothing about fuel pumps whatsoever anywhere in the engine section. Can you tell me what paragraph refers to them? According to B.1.c.31 "Only modifications or additions specifically covered by these regulations are permitted. All engine conponents not covered by these regulations shall remain completely standard and unmodifified."
Hey, I don't know, I'm just asking.

[FC63F]

I really like my Reynard and I agree that the Reynards are old school with the pinto motor, carb, points, condensor etc and because the fix is usually simple and oh buy the way - plenty fast - - I had a petronix for a while and the issue when the car is not running properly is you may or may not be able to diagnose it - which I experienced at Gingerman this summer. On the other hand - you can switch out less than $100 dollars of low tech spares and find the offending component. AND everyone has the bosch bits - spares are easy

I would also add that I am not in favor of electric fuel pumps as I watched a Carbir go up in BIG flames three years ago at Grattan because the the electic fuel pump kept feeding the fire. A mechanical will never do that - further, if you have to have one - make sure there is a cut off switch so if you go on your lid - it is not pumping fuel eny where...

Consider

David Keep
Reynard 90SF

[jabro1000]

Some shots of my ding:

[Gary_T]

Thanks. I see in section B.1.c.25 where "Pump, fan, & generator drive pulleys are unrestricted." However, I see nothing about fuel pumps whatsoever anywhere in the engine section. Can you tell me what paragraph refers to them? According to B.1.c.31 "Only modifications or additions specifically covered by these regulations are permitted. All engine conponents not covered by these regulations shall remain completely standard and unmodifified."
Hey, I don't know, I'm just asking.

B.3.u. Fuel Pump: Unrestricted. - Page 196.

[formulasuper]

There it is, thanks. Guess I had a case of that "blurred vision".

[azjc]

Some shots of my ding:

That is one heck of a ding!

[rickb99]

AZJC,

I told you our ding was bigger then your ding! Like Frog said, overbuilt English design can stand that kind of stuff.

When I first saw that, my initial reaction was oh, oh. But, if you look at the bracing built into that section and think about the stress's, it isn't a big deal. As I recall, the early Reynards have a much different and more open bracing design in that area.

I think somebody put some kind of hydraulic clamp on there and squeezed to get the symmetrical shape. That may result in more remaining 'strength' in the tube then just banging in one side of it.

[azjc]

New pump (from Keith) clears my very slightly modified tube (done before I got the car), only thing I had to do was rotate the cover on the pump. As it was shipped the inlet & outlet pointed straight up & down... the up went straight into the frame rail above the pump. Held the pump base in a vise and used a large par of channel locks on the crimped area of the upper cover & very gently rotated 'till they pointed in a direction that cleared everything. Should not cause any problem with the pump function or sealing, done it before.

[rickb99]

Wow, I confussed. The top of your pump is different then the top of our pump. Furthermore, in the 2 photos, the top looks symetrical in one shot and nonsymetrical in the other?

ALSO:
I noticed this before but didn't comment. You seem to have an aluminum plate picking up the 3 bolt pattern around the fuel pump to distribute the forward engine mount bracket loads to those 3 points. We DON'T have that

[azjc]

Wow, I confussed. The top of your pump is different then the top of our pump. Furthermore, in the 2 photos, the top looks symetrical in one shot and nonsymetrical in the other?

ALSO:
I noticed this before but didn't comment. You seem to have an aluminum plate picking up the 3 bolt pattern around the fuel pump to distribute the forward engine mount bracket loads to those 3 points. We DON'T have that

Picture on the right is looking straight on level 90 deg from the side, top of the picture is actual up. One on the left is shot from above left at an angle so you can see the tube clearance. My fuel pump is different then your's - mine is latest Ford version (came in a Ford box)? Inlet is offset from the center (it's the raised section).

Aluminum plate is what the oil pump mounts to... could it be your's looks different in that it's a 2 section where as mine is 3 (2 scavenge, 1 feed) section? doesn't mount to anything the fuel pump mounts to.

I'm beginning to see that at this age no two Renard's are alike...

[JHandley]

.......... As I recall, the early Reynards have a much different and more open bracing design in that area......

An example of the clearance in an 84 Reynard.

[rickb99]

LOL, Jeff.

You're 1 YEAR and 10 DAYS late on the topic. Yes, good pump clearance on the 83 to 86 Reynards. The problem started in 87 I believe with the 'shortened' engine compartment.

[JHandley]

HEHE. Ya, I know
Lay off begets Boredom!!!!!
After looking at the post I was amazed at how some of the ENGINEERING changes were done to install some of the fuel pumps!!

[azjc]

HEHE. Ya, I know
Lay off begets Boredom!!!!!
After looking at the post I was amazed at how some of the ENGINEERING changes were done to install some of the fuel pumps!!

You know, I was going to post "I hope Jeff hasn't been laid off & is bored like me" but decided not to .

But... between working on the race car and doctor/hospital visits with my wife (just check ups - she's doing great) along with doing some painting around the house I've actually been quite busy .

[JHandley]

I get out to the garage when the weather isnt so cold, after about 2 hours my feet are ice even with the heat on.
I do have some trim work going on in the house and am making modifications for mounting a cub cadet snowblower to my craftsman tractor, so a little bit to keep me busy but not like working 12 hour days!!!!!