Seeking ideas to drastically lower my club racing costs

[formulasuper]

After years of formula car roadracing I think my favorite driving experience is driving a formula Atlantic car at Mid-Ohio, but the bad news is that that experience will cost about $ 7500 per weekend. The good news is that you can duplicate 95% of that Atlantic experience for about 5% of the cost with a 125 shifter kart at any number of kart tracks in your area( Jacksonville, Ocalla?) and any SCCA track you have ever driven. $35 entry fees, much tougher than SCCA competition, tire sets for $170. I run a 125 stock moto shifter and a 125 TAG kart at Newcastle Indiana and logged over 3000 track miles last year and spent less than $5000. Yet when I drove a s2000 a couple of times last year I was up to speed right away, in fact after the shifter it seemed to me that I could get out and run faster that the s2 went! I regularly see SCCA veterans and current pro drivers at the kart track and they laugh at the cost comparison, bang for the buck it is not even close. $ 3k will get you a good used 125 shifter(like mine!) and you can put everything in the back of your truck, after selling your trailer and racecar you could race every weekend for the next decade! btw I will give any SCCA licence holder a free test in my shifter at Newcastle, just ask, you will be impressed.

Hey Paddy, I checked your profile to see how old you are but it doesn't say. Russ, myself & a few others are too old to be breaking any bones because it takes them way too long to heal at this age. We talked about kart racing but decided there's not enough protection with that kind of motor missile. I don't take my Suzuki GSXR750 out on a track anymore for the same reason.

[Paddy O'Brien]

Mr. Super, I am old, officially 50-something now and part of the reason I kart is for the cardio-workout. In the winter I go to the gym daily to run + weights and in summer I kart and do some rowing to keep in shape, but skip the gym. . I used to race street races in karts and those tracks can be very bumpy and tough on us old guys backs as the kart gets air on the crown of the road at the intersections when you hit them at 100mp! Most of the new tracks that are being built like Newcastle are glass smooth and fairly long, over 1mile, with lots of elevation changes. The weekly regional KRA series at Newcastle has a stock moto shifter class that gets mixed with the regular shifters and I would guess the average age is over 40 and almost every driver came from cars, sprints midget, SCCA etc, but they now "see the light" The fast young kids tend to race in the ICC(race engine) 125 shifters and senior 125 TAG classes.

[formulasuper]

I agree that shifter karts are probably the best kick per dollar & I actually own one but don't race it in competition. I feel safer in my Ralt monocoque chassis & with the Busa engine it's pretty much like driving a giant shifter kart!

[smcqueen]

Road racing 125 shifters was costing me about $1k per weekend. As far as safety goes, in one year of racing cars I have seen more guys badly hurt than in 8 years of road racing shifter karts. Stock 125 class is definitely the way to go for a more economical and reliable package.

scott

[rickjohnson356]

Hold on for a little while.

I'm working on being able to supply a diesel substitute (not vegi based) that will reduce your towing fuel costs by at least 40%.

Does not need any special handling or separate tanks nor (start on reg diesel, switch, run for a few minutes before stopping) techniques.

May not help Sean/Scott, though, because I think they have gassers.

I gotta prove it in my f350 first before I start peddling it. It's my risk and responsibility if it screws up my diesel, but another story if it screws up yours. I expect results by the middle of Sept. (either good or bad)

I will keep you informed.

================================================== ==============

I have thought seriously about going back to Solo I for a while (since Jan). Hence the FV projects. & open trailer. Gotta keep the F350 though, I may be in the property rehab business in a few months.

Maybe offer arrive/drive service in FV also??

[Rondo]

I am surprised no one mentions the FRCCA in the Northeast. We run spec tires so one set a year, fixed gear ratios, very restrictive engine rules and lot's of seat time - up to 2 hours/day. Entry fees run ~ $200/day. Aside from fuel and travel expenses the expenditure is minimal. And the cars are generally older but not "vintage" FF so purchase price is about equivalent to an engine/trans cost. I went back racing this year after 20 year hiatus but after attending one SCCA weekend and one FRCCA weekend, for a Formula car, it's a no-brainer

[Adam Brouillard]

Mr. Super, I am old, officially 50-something now and part of the reason I kart is for the cardio-workout. In the winter I go to the gym daily to run + weights and in summer I kart and do some rowing to keep in shape, but skip the gym. . I used to race street races in karts and those tracks can be very bumpy and tough on us old guys backs as the kart gets air on the crown of the road at the intersections when you hit them at 100mp! Most of the new tracks that are being built like Newcastle are glass smooth and fairly long, over 1mile, with lots of elevation changes. The weekly regional KRA series at Newcastle has a stock moto shifter class that gets mixed with the regular shifters and I would guess the average age is over 40 and almost every driver came from cars, sprints midget, SCCA etc, but they now "see the light" The fast young kids tend to race in the ICC(race engine) 125 shifters and senior 125 TAG classes.

I've been curious about shifter karts lately, but have heard they cost more than a racecar to run. What is a stock moto shifter? Is it the honda cr125 in stock form? How long do they last? Cost? Can you put one on most kart chassis? Sorry for all the questons.

[smcqueen]

Both IKF and WKA have specifications for the Stock 125 class. Both based on CR125 engine, I believe 99 model. Engine kits can be had from Honda brand new in the $2k range maybe less. Difference in clubs will tend to be pipe allowed, reeds or reed block, carb, and tires. You can check their sites for rules. Well tuned stock 125 will make 36hp. You can safely run 3 or 4 race weekends on a piston and ring. Some guys run all season although I would not recommend. You must buy jets and some kind of air density guage. If you road race a kart, you must keep it jetted correctly or you will stick the motor. The modified 125 engines will make about 42hp and you will change rings between races, pistons after every weekend at least, and you will damage the engine on a regular basis due to detonation, and siezures.

As far as chassis goes. It is generally best to find a local supplier and buy the brand that is locally supported for parts. There must be at least 50 different brands, so you have to try and find one of the major brands with good parts support. In Texas, most guys are runnig the Intrepid chassis as it is reasonably priced, well built, good brakes, and parts are readily available and cheap.

As far as used karts, be very careful.
New package will run $6-$8k
Good used $4500 - $5500
Bad used $3000-$3500

scott

[Garey Guzman]

I've thought about getting into karting too. My biggest reason was that my 4 year old wants a kart and it sounds like a really cool father/son weekend! But after looking at Scott's costs above and the amount of work required for the engines, it sounds like it would take too much time aways from my full-size race cars. Time in the garage is already minimal due to wife's needs and caring for the 5 month old!

But if anyone has a cheap kit kart with a 50 cc comer, let me know!

[LenFC11]

russ

put a stacker in your trailer, use your pick up to tow. I store, work on and transport cars for friends who have the extra money but dont want the extra work. I also run a kart for cheap seat time so that when i get in my car i am still comfotable and up to speed.

good luck, im dealing with the same decions as many of us are in the same boat

len

[Amon]

Russ:

Bill's correct concerning the Formula First class. They use Club Ford Hoosier R60
tires that last 20+ heat cycles, understressed 1600 VW aircooled motors that
use restrictor plates to even the field, plus VW gearboxes that are nearly
indestructible and good for many years. The new cars being produced look
similiar to new FF's being produced plus there are conversion cars (former FV's)
available at reduced prices. I had over 25+ heat cycles on my FST tires before
they finally gave up the ghost at Beaverun two years ago and I was forced to
buy new tires. Give it a thought and good luck with any decision you make!

Mark

[Ted Idlof]

I would echo what PF said; don't make any decisions too quickly.

One option that I would consider (and do myself occassionally) that has not been mentioned; instruct and drive in a track day club. Reasons:

1. no entry fees
2. run old tires and still pass everyone on track
3. enjoy bringing a novice track driver up the learning curve
4. relaxed social, no pressure atmosphere
5. keeps you in the seat (shorter but more frequent sessions feeds the need)

Of course you'll need to find the right club and be accepted as an instructor. You'll also need to back off a bit on track to never, ever spin and to know for absolute certain that every pass you're about to make is expected by the guy ahead. I've got 2 clubs that I can run with and it's been a great option to the more expensive racing weekends. I like prepping and maintaining the car as well as the driving, so changing the priorities from just racing to more social type driving would work for me.

I hear you about the reliability factor holding you back from renting your car out. If you can get past that, there is a lot of your labor to sell for an arrive and drive weekend. One or 2 weekends/year can help you out with your own racing pretty well. Be happy to share more information on my experience.

Good luck; hope to see updates to your situation over the months to come.

[Mark H]

If your on the fence about quiting ...get a divorce and that will push you right over!

[AJWALKER]

Having read and re-read this thread, I think that PF's piece of wisdom from a Grey one holds the most merit. And from that we can take stock in the fact we racers. And that commitment and sacrifices are required for most to carry that title. No matter what your resources are, there is always something desired for the improvement of our race effort. Decisions are made as to trailer size and therefore truck or motorhome size. Sometimes these choices come back to bite us, so we park the big rigs and the guy with the open trailer pull by the family mini-van and sleeping under the stars is racing.
My point is, sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
I look back at my racing roots in off road motorcycles, it was simple. Bike is pickup bed, pay entry, race through the woods for 2 or 3 hours, fiqure out who won over a beer. I stayed in shape without a gym, rebiult the motor myself for 200$, couple sets of tires, $700 for 10 months of riding.
I have tracked my SCCA racing expenses since I started and made similar adjustments listed earlier in this thread. I also am getting more selective in the events I attend preffering doubles with a test day. I figure once I'm there I should maximize the track time. For this I will skip a couple of events.
A bicycle riding friend is a financial advisor and he relates some of the situations that he encounters. He starts by having clients account for every documented expense in the last 6 mths. Focus is placed on recurring expenses and outstanding liabilties. He asks clients to rate the importance of non life sustaining expenses and how to possibly elimate or reduce the expense. Commications and electronic entertainment are areas that provide huge reduction in expenses, sometimes without loosing services actually used on a regualer basis.
other examples:
lawn service but has riding lawn mower
goes to gym but has equipment at home
eat out for lunch but throws leftover away
memberships but never used
registered vehicles with loans that sit for six months
under used expensive toys with loans(boats, atv's, motorcycles).

What a disconnected rant, you get the point, look for racing money outside of racing. If you can't make more, spend less!


AJW

[RussMcB]

I like the instructing idea, and have done that a lot in the past. However, when I moved to the southeast, I found that instructors are not allowed to take their own race cars on the track down here. I guess something bad happened once.

Some potential good news: I may have found someone wanting to get into racing, and they might want to hire me and my tow vehicles. That sounds pretty good since they usually sit in my driveway unused 99% of the time.

I've also had several people suggest I go out with my ambulance and do some pick ups on my own. They charge a pretty penny, right? :-).

My wife told me years ago that divorce wasn't going to be an option, but indicated there may be other ways out. I've been watching my back whenever she gets near the knife drawer.

[Ted Idlof]

You've apparently gotten away from Calvin's rules to live by. I know I have. Time to get back to those tried and true principles.

[SteveLevin]

My wife told me years ago that divorce wasn't going to be an option, but indicated there may be other ways out. I've been watching my back whenever she gets near the knife drawer.

My father once said to me "Son, after 40 years of marriage there's no such thing as divorce. There are merely unfortunate accidents."



Steve

[rmccown]

My father once said to me "Son, after 40 years of marriage there's no such thing as divorce. There are merely unfortunate accidents."



Steve

"My first wife died from eating poisonous mushrooms, my second wife died from falling down the stairs - she wouldn't eat the mushrooms." WC Fields

[Daryl DeArman]

Garey,

The amount of engine work and expense is very dependent on what class and at what level you wish to compete in. Every bit as much in karting as in SCCA, if not moreso. Many of these racers have aspirations of racing professionally and the odds are better that a kid in karting is going to go GP2 or FBMW than us 40-ish folks in our Formula whatevers...they and their parents will spend accordingly.
But you don't have to.

Stock moto motors last much longer than the ICA/ICC stuff. The 125 Tag is much better on the longevity standpoint, put aren't quite the same kick in the pants to drive. The hang-up, expense wise, on the TaG classes are the ever increasing motor options and the sanctioning bodies/clubs trying to maintain some sort of parity. IF your area has a 125 Rotax class, that would be the least time consuming maintenance wise.

Club racing an ITC car or a FV can be really cheap, racing Nationals in a FA or GT1 car...not so much. It is no different in karts. There are kart engines that cost as much as a good FC car.

[EYERACE]

start a business that has some tie in to racing......then.....based on the extent that the IRS rules allow.....write off some of your racing because of what the business does. If you are in a 25% tax bracket, when this idea gets well off the ground, you could have a 25% bigger racing budget.

[Brian]

To follow up on what Eye said, and to encourage the possible RussMcB Arrive and Drive R'Us opportunity - that's exactly what I do. My business has a telecommunications consulting component and an Evans Motorsport component. The Evans Motorsport component is marginally profitable, as long as I don't actually pay myself anything, and 100% of my car maintenance and racing expenses are deductible. My truck and trailer are owned by the company and get depreciated. Ditto my welders, Bridgie, lathe, cars, motors, etc. When I go down to Savannah, I am always meeting with clients, dragging down a car for someone, dragging one back and doing a restorations, delivering an engine, doing a setup, you get the picture. And I get a nice winter jaunt to Savannah in december! Wife is Happy! Life is Good! you get the picture.

Make it tax deductible by making it a business.

Brian

[jim morgan]

Russ,

As a multiple relapsed racing addict, do not sell the car you already have the major expense covered,run when you can ,let it sit. Over the years I let two houses go before the car and used the excuse"I'm trying to sell it that's why I'm at the track,you can't sell a car unless it runs up front" but once you sell it the reinvestment when you start again is hell. If you must trade classes. Never let the wife think you can live without a race car.

OBTW it's also usefull if you don't piss away a fortune paying for someone else to race.

[John Merriman]

Trying to figure out how to go racing for less money is always an interesting exercise – and often quite a challenge for racers who would just as soon sell their mother to fund their addiction! But how about going a little further to ask how club racing got to be so damned expensive? (Oh, I know, it was never a “cheap” hobby but there was a time when it was quite a bit less expensive than it is today.) What happened? Racing, it seems - like almost everything else - went upscale and to one extent or another, every single competitor – many perhaps unknowingly - signed on to the movement. “Standard Equipment” today means something far different that it used to. Today, it often means getting more car than you can afford, buying a big, fancy tow vehicle, a huge enclosed trailer and 3, 4 or even 5 sets of tires….and maybe – even for Regional guys – a spare engine. Everyone needs their own set of scales, of course, and a super-duper, $1500 set of headers is a must as is a pit/car radio and an electronic lap timer on the pit wall. (No, a $29 stop watch simply will not do!) Oh, and don’t forget the $4000 sets of shocks and maybe a $2,000 aluminum diff…all of this in the search for racing glory and what? – a ten dollar trophy? (Did someone say “laser alignment gizmo”? What happened to string?)

As many of the posts above say straight out or just hint at, there are only two ways to make a “correction” when something cannot be afforded. The first is to find more money somewhere – not easy in today’s economy (and, like “finding” more time, it’s next to impossible); the second is to either stay with the class you’re in and cut back across the board or, more drastically, drop back to a simpler, less expensive class. I must say the economic arguments in favor of Formula First are pretty darn convincing. Trouble is, they ain’t Formula Fords!

And as far a going over to the FRCCA, there’s a hitch. Every single FF engine in SCCA is illegal in the FRCCA because of that club’s “restrictive”,“cost-savings” rules. Not so in EMRA or FormulaPro racing though!

[Keith Carter]

OBTW it's also usefull if you don't piss away a fortune paying for someone else to race.

LOL!!!

[Stan Clayton]

Well...it's Friday night, everybody's weighed in and I've had a few glasses of merlot, what the heck!

Russ, buddy, I'm with Jim Morgan...DON'T sell your race car! In today's economic climate you will get pennies on the dollar (not that one gets much more in better times...) and feel like puking when the buyer pulls out of the driveway with it on his trailer. Sit on it for a year or two if needed. Like Jim, I have done it several times (...AND AM DOING IT AGAIN THIS YEAR!!!). I once sat out for 11 years, so don't let it get you down.

Also, Formula First (and other classes) can be great bargains, but in many cases only if one is getting started. Your car is already paid for. If you scrounge used tires and economize every way practical (as you appear to be doing), you won't save much money going down a class.

My bottom line is to just hang in there and don't panic. As my mother likes to say, "This too shall pass!"

Stan

[rmccown]

And as far a going over to the FRCCA, there’s a hitch. Every single FF engine in SCCA is illegal in the FRCCA because of that club’s “restrictive”,“cost-savings” rules. Not so in EMRA or FormulaPro racing though!

John, have you run with EMRA? Their TT sounds like a good way for me to get some track time before school in October.

[John Merriman]

I ran with EMRA a ton of times when I started in this game in '83 and up through the early 90's. But even then, most of my racing was with SCCA. (In fact, the EMRA CF Champ's trophy for '84 graces the wall above my desk!) They said EMRA was "Racing like the SCCA Used to Be". That is, the atmosphere was relaxed and quite low key the way SCCA Regionals were in the 60's and 70's. There were only four race groups and everybody got plenty of track time and had a heck of a lot of fun. One time at the glorious Bridgehampton circuit, a friend was having a little technical issue with his car when his session was called. I said "here, take mine"...which he did. Try that in SCCA! I last raced with them 5-6 years ago on Pocono North and enjoyed it a lot. The club is much less beaurocratic than SCCA and I mean that as a compliment to EMRA while still respecting the stature of SCCA. Their flaggers may not be as highly trained as SCCA's and I don't think their insurance program could possibly match SCCA's so there are a few tradeoffs. I would suggest you try one of their events and see what it's like for yourself. I don't know if they run with FormulaPro racing or not. Lindsey...are you out there?

[racer27]

John: To answer your FPR/EMRA Question, most of thier events are EMRA Sanctioned, but there aea a few RACES sanctioned by other clubs. The '08 RACE schd is below, it also shows the Sanctioning club. I don't know what the TT schedule is as I only participate in races.

1 April 20 (Complete) Shenandoah (EMRA)
2 May 4 (Complete) Pocono South (EMRA)
3/4 May 24, 25 (Complete) Shenandoah (Bill Scott Formula Series)
5/6 June 7, 8 (Complete) BeaveRun (EMRA)
7 June 28,29* (Complete) Summit Point Classic (SCCA)
8/9 July 11, 12, 13 (Complete) NJ MotorSport Park (EMRA) Lighting
10 Aug 12 (Tues) Pocono East (EMRA)
11 Aug 30 Pocono North (EMRA)
12/13 Oct 24, 25 (NEW) NJ MotorSport Park (EMRA) Thunderbolt
14/15 Nov 15, 16 Summit Point (EMRA)

[Garey Guzman]

First off, don't sell the car. Ever heard anyone say that they wished they'd kept a car?
Take a break if necessary but keep the car! (Unless you're going to sell it and get an FF)

My method for saving money isn't very everyone.
Do you have any other hobbies? If so, quit them. Sell any related equipment.
Have any outside interests like movies/going out to dinner/books? Quit them too.
Brown bag lunch. I eat a Health cereal for lunch usually with a banana and an apple, costing about a dollar per meal. That cereal is also breakfast after going to the company gym in the morning.
Buy in bulk when things are on sale. My thinking is that every nickel saved is a nickel toward tires/entry fee/tow fuel etc.

I'm cheap by nature so looking for the extra savings is my normal methodology.

I think that most people aren't so one-dimensional but it's working for me!

[formulasuper]

Too bad we don't have any other formula car racing choices in the SE. However, I am the original low budget SCCA racer having practiced all of the above mentioned tactics for the last 15 years, long before the economy hit the dumps. Easy to tow custom open trailer that I built myself, 04 Ford van that doubles as my one man camper, free used tires from my buds & off the pile at the tracks that I mount & balance myself for free at my retired from company auto hobby shop, do all my own fabrication & maintenance, run pump gas in the Busa, cook out at the tracks with my buds, etc... I'll bet no one does it for less expense in any class. Like the head of tech said to me at the Rd Atl impound during the July 18-19 regional, "You have more fun in a race car than anyone I know".

[jim morgan]

Garey,
i will not tolerate someone coming on this site and calling my friend Garey Guzman simply "cheap",

You are far beyond that my friend!

[Sean Maisey]

Russ,

Like the man said "I can't quite you Babe. But Woman I'm going to put you down for a while".

I did my first driver's school in '87 and have raced every year since. Some years I get discouraged, and race very little. I always miss it though and come back.

Unless you really don't like your current car,don't sell it. You will get pennies on the dollar. When (not if) you miss it and want to come back,you will have to amass all of the stuff again at closer to full price...

Just my $.02

Sean

[Daryl DeArman]

Selling and going cheaper class route logic: Yes, you will get pennies on the dollar for what you have BUT you will also be paying someone else pennies on the dollar for their car. If the delta is more than a seasons' budget for you, you can race for "free" for a little while. What hurts is when you are going the other way, to a class that is more expensive.

Most people hate to see someone sell a car in their class because they believe it hurts their numbers. They can still be friends and paddock in the same area--provided they don't completely sell out and buy one of those {fill in the blank} More often than not, they are selling that car to move onto something that has piqued their interest and the new owner is doing the same thing. That new guy is likely to race and SPEND more within the class than the guy thinking of getting out. Everybody wins...new guy/old guy and class suppliers....hopefully by the time the musical chairs stops the result was someone completely new to racing was hooked.

[RacerDave51]

Garey isn't cheap—he just very penurious!! How else could he afford 3 racecars…?

[Tom Sprecher]

...after you do what Tom said, park your FB car until things 'get better' and partner with someone who has a nice IT car (maybe pretty blue one) and split expenses and seat time.

I'm all for Russ splitting the expenses of racing a blue IT car. As far as him sharing seat time, he has already taken it out once at CMP so the way I see it he owes me one.

[Larry Johnson]

Never let the wife think you can live without a race car.

QFT!

[Tom Sprecher]

I just bought spare rotors (Raybestos) for all four corners of my IT7. The total bill including shipping to my door was $58.21. How much would the same be for your Van Diemen?

$58.21! You can't even find a stick to beat that with.

[Dennis McCarthy]

Tom,

Try outbraking a Van Diemen someday with that Raybestos equipped doorslammer......
You get what you pay for

[Tom Sprecher]

After I get done putting him into the wall with my Raybestos equipped doorslammer.

[RussMcB]

I just bought spare rotors (Raybestos) for all four corners of my IT7. The total bill including shipping to my door was $58.21. How much would the same be for your Van Diemen?

$58.21! You can't even find a stick to beat that with.

That is insane. That price sounds cheaper than what they could get for the weight in scrap metal! And delivered! Sheesh. Most of the posts in this thread have lifted my spirits a bit, but now you're just pissing me off. :-). jk.

Tell you what. The next time I have to purchase one of the following, we'll compare costs:
- Windshield
- Door
- Bumper
- 1981 USNA NOS RX-7 12A GSL Windshield Washer Bottle (!)

:-)